(Topic ID: 293307)

Williams System 6 PROM Question

By DickHamill

2 years ago



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    #1 2 years ago

    I'm repairing a Stellar Wars that has a System 6 board in it (shipped with a 4, I believe, but was replaced). I fixed all the issues that I can find and the machine is running well. On my list of things to improve it, I planned to replace the 3 3624s at IC21, IC22, and IC26 with one 2716 at IC14. I was going to do this because the old PROMs are old and heat up when the machine is played. Also, I thought if I just ditched those I would not bother to replace those last 3 sockets.

    In the manual, it says:
    Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 9.20.25 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-05-12 at 9.20.25 AM (resized).png

    No problem - PinWiki says the same thing:
    For all other System 3-6 games, the ROMs that might be located at U26, U22, and U21 (left to right on the top ROM row) can be replaced with a single 2716 2kb ROM (or EPROM) at IC14 that contains the combined images. When doing so, jumper J3 should be IN, jumper J4 OUT. These jumpers are located just above the ROMs and to the right of IC15.

    The only problem is that my board already has a jumper at J3 and nothing at J4:
    IMG_2811 (resized).jpegIMG_2811 (resized).jpeg

    In fact, my jumpers match the PinWiki photo for what it's supposed to look like with a combined IC14:
    644px-WMSSystem6ROMConfig (resized).jpeg644px-WMSSystem6ROMConfig (resized).jpeg

    I don't understand why this machine is running with the J3-IN / J4-OUT and 3 PROMs at 21, 22, and 26. That seems to be the config they want for a single 2716 at IC14. Are the jumpers just the same for both ways, and you can either populate (21, 22, and 26) or 14?
    This is my first System 6 - I guess I don't know what I don't know.
    Any help?

    Also, not to derail my real question, but these machine are so inexpensive compared to other SS of the same year and I really don't understand why. Great sounds, tons of lights / solenoids, good flippers. I'm not sure why Stellar Wars goes for $600-$800 (or used to before).

    #2 2 years ago

    I'm not sure the exact reason, but I've never had to rejumper a system 3-6 board when swapping from 3 PROMs to 1 2716. I think the jumpering only matters when you're dealing with Firepower (which uses 3 PROMs AND a 2716)

    Quoted from DickHamill:

    Also, not to derail my real question, but these machine are so inexpensive compared to other SS of the same year and I really don't understand why. Great sounds, tons of lights / solenoids, good flippers. I'm not sure why Stellar Wars goes for $600-$800 (or used to before).

    I think part of the reason is that you know how to do board work, and most people don't Basically any system 3-6 game you pick up is going to need a bunch of bulletproofing done to the boards. Simple stuff if you can desolder components but

    #3 2 years ago

    The jumper change is if you have proms in all 4 locations (firepower, basically.)

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    I think the jumpering only matters when you're dealing with Firepower (which uses 3 PROMs AND a 2716)

    Quoted from slochar:

    The jumper change is if you have proms in all 4 locations (firepower, basically.)

    Awesome - thank you both for the replies.
    I will try a 2716 without changing anything and hopefully that makes the board a little more solid.

    Quoted from zacaj:

    know how to do board work

    This one was fun! I think it's a good architecture. More components than they needed (and that connector is a big WTF) but really solid architecture.
    I chased a really fun 6810 issue for a while. It appeared as a short (2.5 ohms) on the data bus between D0 & D1. But as soon as I touched a soldering iron to a pad, the "short" would go away. I would remove a socket, think the short was gone, and then after measuring it for a minute or two, the resistance would drop back down again.

    Grounding the pins was temporarily fixing the issue until I measured it again for a minute (literally about 60 seconds).
    Turns out that the right 6810 (soldered into the board) was bad. It charged up from the meter's trickle current (I guess!?) and turned into a short between pins 2 & 3 on IC16. I was going to put a socket there anyway, so no big deal, but it was really interesting when I was watching the poor thing try to boot with D0 & D1 making weird intermittent shorts. It would get down into the part of the code where it sets up the PIA chips (around M7018), and then get super confused.

    #5 2 years ago

    ... hijacking my own thread ...

    Am I reading this right? It looks like they set the stack pointer to 7FD9 so they can do PULAs and setup the PIAs with bytes stored in a chunk at the end of the file? Once they're done with setting up PIAs, they LDS #M00FF, where it belongs.
    I haven't seen the stack pointer used in that way before. Thought it was clever.

    Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 10.04.22 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-05-12 at 10.04.22 AM (resized).png
    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from DickHamill:

    Am I reading this right? It looks like they set the stack pointer to 7FD9 so they can do PULAs and setup the PIAs with bytes stored in a chunk at the end of the file?

    Yes, WMS did this a lot from system 6 through at least system 11c. They really packed the OS roms in these games, and it's pretty efficient. System 6 byte coding is pretty efficient as well, although it certainly has limitations.

    For extra fun look at any game's code that Eugene Jarvis programmed..... you tell that sometimes he just puts a hack in there to get it written and to do something cool. (Although the work he did on Defender was really excellent, some of which no doubt was Larry DeMar as well)

    Nice write up here:
    https://nowhereman999.wordpress.com/2017/12/31/defender-conversion-for-the-coco-3-part-1/

    Imagine if these boards could drop in a 6809 and use that instead....

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    Yes, WMS did this a lot from system 6 through at least system 11c. They really packed the OS roms in these games, and it's pretty efficient. System 6 byte coding is pretty efficient as well, although it certainly has limitations.
    For extra fun look at any game's code that Eugene Jarvis programmed..... you tell that sometimes he just puts a hack in there to get it written and to do something cool. (Although the work he did on Defender was really excellent, some of which no doubt was Larry DeMar as well)
    Nice write up here:
    https://nowhereman999.wordpress.com/2017/12/31/defender-conversion-for-the-coco-3-part-1/
    Imagine if these boards could drop in a 6809 and use that instead....

    So cool - thanks for the link.
    Disassembled code is a real window into the personality of the person who programmed. Fascinating.

    #8 2 years ago

    If you are really into Sys6 and Sys7 boards I have a test setup I would be willing to part with. (Siegecraft test boards)
    Make me an offer.
    All board there work of course. SYS7 has Black Knight ROMs and SYS6 has Firepower ROMs (SYS7 now has NVRAM too, old pic)
    I have Andre, Leon, and Pincoder (ROMs) as well if you need those too. This setup hangs on the wall when not in use.

    Sys7 Test (resized).JPGSys7 Test (resized).JPG
    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from Budwin:

    If you are really into Sys6 and Sys7 boards I have a test setup I would be willing to part with.

    I'm not yet - we'll see how this goes. I have a Stellar Wars up and running now and I think it's a really nice game. It's fast & flashy and has interesting goals spread around.

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