(Topic ID: 295350)

FIXED Williams System 11A: Flippers Now Locking On

By nerdygrrl

2 years ago


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  • 18 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by nerdygrrl
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#1 2 years ago

8/21 UPDATE: FIXED-Cabinet switches needed readjusting.

The PCB was sent off to Allan Davidson who did a tremendous amount of work to it and it is looking aces. I powered it on and all was great until I went to start a game and the left coil locked on and the right was dead. Any ideas where to start looking.

I picked up a hot mess of a Fire! last month. Prior to my repair attempts the flippers had been working. Just not the slings, prior owner installed the diode backwards on the lowers and took out the transistors. It looks like there was damaged to the area prior as some chips were socketed and others had jumpers.

I replaced the associated lower sling transistor and pre driver, and socketed and replaced U50. Whoever removed and worked on the PCB prior was very heavy handed with the heat so the backside was a mess of lifted pads and traces.

Now when I fire it up, I still don't have any of the special solenoids AKA upper and lower slings and the flippers no longer work. All the fuses check out. Nothing fires during test mode.

I found this explanation that these solenoids are controlled by U50 and author states U45: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/system-11-special-solenoids#post-4810138

So I guess I should go back and check my work on U50 and verify the incoming voltages. Before I go probing, How do I determine the input location. I know after years I should know better, but I have shaky hands and I've always been hesitant about probing chips. My guess is I have a dropped line somewhere on U50 from a bad pad or trace.

"You can check this with the board installed, the game in test mode, and J19 unplugged, measure the input voltage to the NOR gates at U50 and U45. You should see a near 0 volts at the input off of U56, and the other input coming off of SR20 should be +5v if things are working correctly."

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#2 2 years ago
Quoted from nerdygrrl:

I replaced the associated lower sling transistor and pre driver, and socketed and replaced U50.

I don't see a socket in U50 in your images. Are they images before the repair? Current images of the board are more relevant.

Quoted from nerdygrrl:

Now when I fire it up, I still don't have any of the special solenoids AKA upper and lower slings and the flippers no longer work.

If only the lower slings and flipper relay do not work then suspect U50. If both lower slings and both upper slings (i.e. all four slings) and flipper relay do not work then suspect the only signal common to all of them. That's ~EN and BLANKING. Check for continuity coming in - likely to be correct. Then check for continuity where the signal is distributed. Check them all. You should be systematic and methodical.

EN_SS.jpgEN_SS.jpg

The common signal goes to U45-11 (SST1), U45-6 (SST2), U45-3 (SST3), U45-8 (SST4), U50-3 (SST5) and U50-6 (SST6). As you can see from the image it also goes to U50-8 and U50-9 (flipper relay enable).

Quoted from nerdygrrl:

Nothing fires during test mode.

There are two paths for the solenoids to fire. One is hardware control from the special solenoid trigger (playfield switch). The other is software control that goes through U49. Both hardware and software meet at U45 and U50. You can bypass U45 and U50 by momentarily grounding the drive transistor (TIP102) tab that should cause the solenoid to fire.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I don't see a socket in U50 in your images. Are they images before the repair? Current images of the board are more relevant.

If only the lower slings and flipper relay do not work then suspect U50. If both lower slings and both upper slings (i.e. all four slings) and flipper relay do not work then suspect the only signal common to all of them. That's ~EN and BLANKING. Check for continuity coming in - likely to be correct. Then check for continuity where the signal is distributed. Check them all. You should be systematic and methodical.
[quoted image]
The common signal goes to U45-11 (SST1), U45-6 (SST2), U45-3 (SST3), U45-8 (SST4), U50-3 (SST5) and U50-6 (SST6). As you can see from the image it also goes to U50-8 and U50-9 (flipper relay enable).

There are two paths for the solenoids to fire. One is hardware control from the special solenoid trigger (playfield switch). The other is software control that goes through U49. Both hardware and software meet at U45 and U50. You can bypass U45 and U50 by momentarily grounding the drive transistor (TIP102) tab that should cause the solenoid to fire.

Thank you for the very detailed reply. It is indeed all four slings and flippers. Flippers had been working prior to me removing the old U50.

I fear a bit of what you described is a bit above my pay grade/understanding, but I can ground a transistor so I think that may be the best place to start. Sadly I can't fid an alligator clip to save my life so I guess it will have to wait until tomorrow.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from nerdygrrl:

I fear a bit of what you described is a bit above my pay grade/understanding

I would disagree. All you need to do is measure continuity. Get your DMM and set it to either beep/buzz/tone if it has such a setting or resistance otherwise. Make sure all the points indicated below are continuous with each other. This means put one lead at one point and the other lead at the other point. Systematically and methodically test each point. You can anchor one lead at one point and then move the other lead to other points.

If you detect a break in continuity you can then apply a binary search algorithm to find the points of failure (i.e. the two points where continuity is broken). Bear in mind that continuity may be broken at MULTIPLE points if there are multiple failures.

If you don't detect and failure then you should check the ~EN signal. This signal originates at U10-19 and terminates at U50-11.

continuity.jpgcontinuity.jpg
#5 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I would disagree. All you need to do is measure continuity. Get your DMM and set it to either beep/buzz/tone if it has such a setting or resistance otherwise. Make sure all the points indicated below are continuous with each other. This means put one lead at one point and the other lead at the other point. Systematically and methodically test each point. You can anchor one lead at one point and then move the other lead to other points.
If you detect a break in continuity you can then apply a binary search algorithm to find the points of failure (i.e. the two points where continuity is broken). Bear in mind that continuity may be broken at MULTIPLE points if there are multiple failures.
If you don't detect and failure then you should check the ~EN signal. This signal originates at U10-19 and terminates at U50-11.
[quoted image]

Thank you. I will check this tomorrow.

#6 2 years ago

OK, I was able to check the continuity. Everything checks out with the exception of the fuchsia from U50 to U55 I do not have any continuity with that signal to the chip. The red checks out between the two.

The only other bit that I neglected to mention is that I replaced the capacitor at point B near U50 as I broke the glass trying to get the IC out, but I don't think that would be the issue.

Am I correct to assume that a jumper between the last fuchsia point on U50 to first fuchsia on U55 would solve this issue?

I have continuity from the capacitor to U54, but if I a looking at the trace correctly I should have continuity from the second to last lug on the right side U50 to the second to last leg on the last side of U54. I do not. So is that my breakdown point?

#7 2 years ago

Further testing, I have continuity from the fuchsia to S19 and to points on U56. Just no fuchsia to U55 and no fuchsia continuity between S19 and U55.

#8 2 years ago

Sorry. I made a mistake. It should be U56-6 and not U55-6. It should also be continuous with SR19-5.

I fixed the image. Please test again.

continuity.jpgcontinuity.jpg
#9 2 years ago

U56 test point is correct. I have continuity. Should I recheck my transistors or short them?

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from nerdygrrl:

U66 test point is correct. I have continuity. Should I recheck my transistors or short them?

Yes. Momentarily ground the driver transistor (TIP102) tab. Solenoids 17 and 18 are not used and will not generate any response. These are Q71 and Q75.

If you get a response then there's nothing wrong with the playfield wiring.

You should then check the hardware (playfield) switch. Momentarily short each individual pin to ground (in the diagram below). Verify that on your board pins 6 and 7 are connected to ground. Some early revisions of System 11 boards have certain things isolated from ground (such as the solenoid ground). You can also use an alternative connection for ground. This activates the playfield switch and should activate the solenoid. If the switch produce the correct result then the problem is not U45 or U50. It's further upstream - presumably at U49. I notice there has been work done at U49 and (unfortunately) I have learned to always question previous board work.

If the switch does not produce a response AND all the continuity is correct (as you have stated) then suspect the ICs. You can swap them shotgun. Otherwise beyond that you will need a logic probe to investigate further.

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#11 2 years ago

Forgot to mention that other simple tests that you can do are to make sure that the supporting components are within specification. The 68 Ohm, 560 Ohm and 2.7k Ohm resistors should measure the same as each other as there are 6 identical circuits. The 68 Ohm and 560 Ohm should measure near those values (there is a 5% tolerance). The 2.7k Ohm resistor often measures lower (around 2k Ohm) because you are measuring them in circuit. It is not common for these components to go bad (unless they are obviously fried). They are easy to check and part of being systematic.

#12 2 years ago

Thank you again, I will go over my wiring again and give this a try.

#13 2 years ago

OK verified power to the coils, then grounded the slings and both fired. I assume the flipper coils will be the same.

As per grounding the switches, if I am doing this correctly, I am not getting a result. One end of the wire on pins 6 or 7 (same as in my manual) and other end on other pins. I tried multiple pins this way and nothing happened.

I don't have a ton of spare parts here, but did swap out U50 with a spare I had one hand. I guess I'll swap out U45 too as it is the same value. Aside from that I think I may need to send this out for repair.

Thank you so much for all of your help with this.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from nerdygrrl:

OK verified power to the coils, then geounded the slings and both fired. I assume the flipper coils will be the same.

That's good the know. It excludes a simple (but unlikely) cause for the problem. The flipper solenoids will NOT fire because there are no drive transistors for them. The only drive transistor is for the flipper ground relay (2N4401) that is controlled through digital logic. Pressing the flipper cabinet buttons is like grounding the drive transistor as it completes the circuit (and will activate the flipper assuming the flipper ground relay is energized).

Quoted from nerdygrrl:

As per grounding the switches, if I am doing this correctly, I am not getting a result. One end of the wire on pins 6 or 7 (same as in my manual) and other end on other pins. I tried multiple pins this way and nothing happened.

Sorry. I forgot to mention that you need to in diagnostic mode for this to work. The EN+SS signal is normally deactivated unless a game is started or in diagnostics. I do a lot of testing and repairs on a bench so I often forget about this when testing at a machine.

Quoted from nerdygrrl:

Aside form that I think I may need to send this out for repair.

I am glad you came to this conclusion. I did not want to suggest it but I have to admit I was thinking this. ChrisHibler is an excellent resource for board repair if you do not know someone local to you.

Quoted from nerdygrrl:

Thank you so much for all of your help with this.

You are most welcome. I try to help to limit of my understanding and how well I am able to communicate. It seems I often forget about things in my haste to try to help and having done a lot of these things automatically. The most difficult part for me is not knowing the knowledge level and experience of anyone asking for help.

#15 2 years ago

Yeah, I had started a game before attempting to ground the switches. It has to be something I did with the repair. The flippers had been working. I wonder if I got some bad IC's from Mouser.

I dropped Chris a line, and will see what he says.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from nerdygrrl:

I wonder if I got some bad IC's from Mouser.

That's unlikely. I have yet to receive a bad IC from a reputable merchant. ICs from different manufacturers may have compatibility issues though but it's extremely unlikely and rare.

The most expedient way to have this resolved is to have a reputable repair technician assess and work on the board. If Chris is unable to handle the board there are also other repair technicians available. If all else fails I also do repairs but it's not my primary focus.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That's unlikely. I have yet to receive a bad IC from a reputable merchant. ICs from different manufacturers may have compatibility issues though but it's extremely unlikely and rare.
The most expedient way to have this resolved is to have a reputable repair technician assess and work on the board. If Chris is unable to handle the board there are also other repair technicians available. If all else fails I also do repairs but it's not my primary focus.

It's just such a shame, that whoever was in there previously was so heavy handed with the heat. I couldn't believe all of the lifted pads and traces. They made a right mess of things for sure.

2 months later
#18 2 years ago

8/21 UPDATE: The PCB was sent off to Allan Davidson who did a tremendous amount of work to it and it is looking aces. I powered it on and all was great until I went to start a game and the left coil locked on and the right was dead. Any ideas where to start looking.

What Allan did, the PCB tested fine when it left his place, so I know it is in my cab.

The main problem was a bad PIA (U10) and a gate (U56) which were bringing the enable line low. The rest was re-work and cleanup. I added NVRAM as well. A complete list of components replaced: U10, U56, U49, NVRAM, R110, R109, R104, R103, Q76, Q78, Q77, Q79. Sockets were used on all replaced ICs.

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