(Topic ID: 104181)

Williams System 11 to 11B - SOLVED!

By drscottsmith

9 years ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by G-P-E
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#1 9 years ago

Hello folks -

I have a Taxi that at some point in the past had a system 11 board installed (from Road Kings based on the factory stickers).

Research indicates that six zener diodes must be added (Z3-Z8) to the board to have special solenoids work as well as grounding two connector pins. This board has several zener diodes added to the board but originally had no pins grounded. I did the grounding mod and lo and behold my bumpers started to work.

All well, but then...

One day in the middle of play, several solenoids kicked at once and two of the bumper coils locked on. Testing the special solenoid section revealed a couple of bad drive and pre-drive transistors, which I replaced, as well as a shorted D3 diode. Replaced these components, but the two upper bumpers continue to both lock on when the game is turned on. Unplugging the special solenoid connector from the board makes everything normal.

No switches are stuck. Can't see any ground issues with switches.

I am wondering if one of those diodes added to the back may be shorted, but no one seems to have explained the actual location as well as logic behind this addition, and what values one should see when checking the components.

Please advise - thanks!

-scott

#2 9 years ago

Hi Scott,

Those should be 6.2V Zener Diodes.
You can "kind of" test them the same way you test a normal diode. Set your meter to diode test. You should see null one way, and about .5-.7V the other way.

Here's a picture of their location. They are there to protect the special solenoid switch inputs.
image.jpgimage.jpg

The 7402 in that circuit may have been damaged.
You can reliably test them:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit

Have a shot at it.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http:/www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#3 9 years ago

Hey Chris -

Thanks for the response and I hope you check back...

OK - checked the 7402 (U50) and 7407 (U49) that precedes it and according to the wiki they are both ok. The diodes that were added to the back all check good.

One interesting point...I have replaced D3 (the diode just below K1 twice now and each time I go back and check it it reads the same both directions...(.02v). I have been using a 1n4004 in that spot as a replacement. Not sure if that is in situ board sway or not.

Please advise - still stuck on this one!

Thanks -

-scott

#4 9 years ago
Quoted from drscottsmith:

have replaced D3 (the diode just below K1 twice now and each time I go back and check it it reads the same both directions...(.02v).

No need to do that anymore.
Unless you lift one lead of the diode, you are measuring the voltage drop across the relay coil, which isn't much.
Remember that "electricity always takes the path of least resistance". It's a good thing too. This fact of nature/physics is what allows ALL of our electronics to work.

The path of least resistance when you measure that diode "in circuit" is through the relay's coil. That diode isn't going to fail anyway. Scratch it off the list.

The tool you need now is a logic probe. You would use it to probe the outputs of the ICs upstream of the transistors that you replaced. Do you have a logic probe? They are cheap...and easy to use. Here's an inexpensive one that I like. I have three of them around here.
http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Electronics-LP-560-Logic-Probe/dp/B000Z9HAP4/ref=sr_1_1

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/ndex.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#5 9 years ago

Even better - time to break out the o-scope! I'll let you know what I find...

#6 9 years ago

Before you do anything else to the board check the RC network on the two switches and make sure they are not causing the bumpers to lock on.

viperrwk

#7 9 years ago

OK will check...thanks!

-scott

#8 9 years ago

Alright -

SR11 and SR14 are in the circuit and read ok. SR13, however, is rated as a 1k ohm and reading at 7.6k ohms.

So...need it running tomorrow, and more than likely no way to get one...is there an alternative?

-scott

#9 9 years ago

resistor network is just a bunch of resistors in one package. You can make your own network with 8 or 9 of the same value resistor.

#10 9 years ago

Ok more strangeness...

Went back to Clays Sys11 guides. He references both SR11, SR13 and SR15 as being related to switch matrix.

I thought - ok, before I try to rebuild a SIP...let me just see what happens if I "Un-enable" the bumpers by desoldering the grounding I did in the first place - that should disable the bumpers like they were when I got the machine - NO DICE!

I am sure this narrows something down but I can't figure what. Also, if I unplug IJ8 and IJ10 (switch columns and rows), the coils still lock on.

Thoughts now? I feel like I am making good progress swimming in circles...

-scott

#11 9 years ago

What did you learn from probing the 7402 outputs?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#12 9 years ago

What Chris said.

Typically with special solenoid problems on system 11 and Data East games 90% of the time it's the TIP 102 and the 7402 chip that is bad. Since there are really only 3 chips involved, two 7402's and a 7407, I usually remove and socket all 3 of these TTL chips. (I rarely if ever have to replace the 3 PIA's for special solenoids) Saves time since I already have the board out and these circuits like to go bad quite often so it becomes an easier fix next time another special solenoid circuit pops.

Also this circuit can have you chasing your tail. If you replace the transistors but not the bad chip it doesn't take the game being on very long to reblow the transistors, also a fair amount of the time the diode is blown on the coil (or someone replaced it backwards and that is what blew it out) and the bad or backwards diode will immediately reblow the transistor and possibly the chips.

Also weirdly enough IIRC the blanking circuit uses some of the gates from one of these chips and damage from a bad transistor can lead to odd blanking problems, like the coils all firing when the game is turned on or display chips blowing up, so it's not a bad idea to put fresh ones in when they are suspect.

#13 9 years ago

OK -

So here is where I am. 7402s at both U45 and U50 were bad...I replaced both and the bumper solenoids are no longer locked on...BUT

Now my flippers are very weak, and pressing the flipper buttons fires some of the flash lamps...so a new problem to sort out.

-scott

#14 9 years ago

I believe the flipper relay goes through one of the 7402s. Are your solder joints good etc?

#15 9 years ago

GOT IT!!! Woohoo! Q67 (A/C Relay chain) ended up being shorted as well. Replaced that and we are finally all good!

Man I appreciate all you guys - this was my first Sys11 game and I know a whole lot more now - and have two new socketed chips to make future replacement easier!

Thanks again all!

-scott

#16 9 years ago

A solid disciplined process with testing to validate suspicions is always the way to go.
Great to hear it's fixed.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

5 years later
#17 3 years ago

Someone here was wondering what the 6.2V zener diodes might be there for.
https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#MPU_Driver_Boards
Here's a suggestion:
"Their purpose is to protect the special solenoid switch inputs. Either a ZPY6,2/ZD6,2/1N4735A (1 watt) or ZF5,2/1N5234B (1/2 watt) can be used. This mod is purely optional. In reality the diode doesn't help much if you short the switch input with the solenoid voltage. In this case the diode and the 7402 are usually damaged and need to be replaced."

And crazy enough, I was recently working on a System 11B board with two shorted Zener diodes.
As mentioned in some other thread (will link it when I find it), this will cause the 7402 output to read about 2,5V and lock on the corresponding coil as soon as a game is started or the test mode is entered.

//Enver

#18 3 years ago

Yes, this makes perfect sense.

The use of a half watt zener is pretty wimpy if his function in life is to cut off excess voltage. I imagine his junction vaporizes rather quickly in the event of excess voltage. It is now recommended by manufacturers to use uni-directional transient voltage suppressor or "tranzorb" or "TVS" to do this function. They look like and behave just like zener diodes but can take more of a wallop. The standard part for protecting TTL logic is the P4KE6.8A.

But, like lots of other things Williams did, they only went half way - they only put in half of the required protection into the circuit. This zener clamps the voltage to a lower and more acceptable value. If the voltage remains for a long period of time then the zener (or TVS) will vaporize and the clamping function will be gone thereby exposing the 7402 to this high voltage. The amount of time to kill the zener diode is only a few milliseconds. Williams should have put current limiting between the zener and the connector pin. Probably a low value solid state resettable fuse or "Polyswitch" would have been the best method. Not sure what the board replacement guys are doing to protect the input logic but hopefully they didn't just blindly copy Williams with this one.

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