(Topic ID: 124004)

Williams Swinger Restoration and (Eventual) Retheme


By RyanClaytor

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 711 posts
  • 50 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by RyanClaytor
  • Topic is favorited by 60 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 1,171 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

6mm retro and new retro blended (resized).jpg
incandescent and 8mm warm clear (resized).jpg
lamps blown out (resized).jpg
IMG_0092 (resized).JPG
Okay+Jennifer+Lawrence.gif
IMG_6853 (resized).jpg
IMG_6855 (resized).jpg
IMG_6848 (resized).jpg
IMG_6846 (resized).jpg
IMG_6851 (resized).jpg
IMG_6844 (resized).jpg
IMG_6842 (resized).jpg
IMG_6841 (resized).jpg
warmcool2frosted (resized).jpg
cool2frostedPassive (resized).jpg
IMG_6757 (resized).jpg

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider bingopodcast.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#6 4 years ago

Ryan, great job on your first score reel! How soon till you get your next em project? Haha. Careful. It happens fast.

Love the rubbers! Always interesting. I think you may find those two standups that were blocked off have a problem.

Give me a call if you need an opinion/advice on anything.

-Nick

#14 4 years ago

Hey Ryan, as we've discussed, the Scotch-Brite method does remove the protective layer of filth and coating on those traces.

I'm interested to see what Brasso will do! Always good to learn something new (especially because I'll be rebuilding a couple of games in the very near future)! It should shine it up, but I wonder if it will end up doing the same thing? How does it shine without chemically stripping that protectant? Is it a thin layer of shellac? I'm not really sure.

Just curious - again, if the results are good and it is non-conductive, all should be well! Check the bottle for flammability warnings. I'm a chicken, though. It should be fine, but you will have some current flowing through there. As the reel dirties, it will start arcing a bit. How much of the flammable material is left? Does the board need to be rinsed with something to remove the flammable chemical? How much of an arc is required to ignite that stuff? As with most things, there are many differing opinions on the same concern: cleaning the existing reels. If they end up clean and working, and there's an easier way, why not? I tend to overthink safety - but better safe than sorry! I still manage to get hurt, but not in a tragic way. I'm sure that others using Brasso have thought about this stuff, or know that my idea is ridiculous.

So you only have one more P2 reel remaining?

Have you started whipping through the reels faster now that you've been through a couple? 5 Minutes a piece with your eyes closed?

-Nick

#27 4 years ago

Most of the time, the beer is in the cabinet, dripping down from the lockbar, usually rusting the lockbar latch mechanism. The worst_ is when fossilized beer comes in from the vent/topper holes in the top of the head.

I shopped a machine last year where every single score reel was glued into place by beer. Ugh. Memories of that machine haunt me to this day. It was especially amazing since it was a four player. How much beer spilled, anyway?

One of the hardest things about telling someone how to attack a problem like this is that sometimes I will make an assumption that the easy(er) things have been ruled out. Once I started asking questions about how much movement was available I realized that he just needed a bit more leverage.

Obviously, you don't want to put another piece of metal between those brackets if you can avoid it, because one piece of metal is likely to be deformed. More of a last resort thing. On the machine I mentioned above, I had to take a thin flathead and move it all the way around the platform, carefully. A pocket knife would also work. The idea is to be able to loosen the goo that is latching the brackets together.

#30 4 years ago

This sounds odd, but for the best consistency I use my finger. The q tip will glop up in spots.

1 week later
#44 4 years ago

Now that I see that pic up close, I can tell you that that is not normal. The plunger and stop should not fit together like that. The coil stop can become cupped and still function properly, but there should not be a ring in the plunger that is cutting into the stop. Eventually this will fall apart.

You will need to (pick 1):
a) file/grind the plunger down and probably file/grind the stop
b) file/grind down the plunger and replace the stop
c) replace both.

In this instance, again, now that I see the pic up close, I would choose option c. This is because this stop is being used all the time in the match unit.

The plunger and stop should not mate.

As a cheat, if the plunger and stop can be robbed from another coil that is used less frequently (but the same size) you could do that temporarily.

This may hold up for an extended period just as it is, but it is causing wear, and will cause the plunger to eventually eat through the metal sleeve, at which point you'll have to replace the coil, plunger, and stop.

Save a buck here, spend more later.
-Nick

#46 4 years ago

Hey Mk1Mod0 - cupping is certainly normal, but unless my eyes deceive me, there is a protruding ring on the bottom tip of the plunger.

I've been wrong in the past, and if it was just cupped I'd say leave it. But as it is biting with every plunge, I say replace it. I'm probably misinterpreting your words to say, "just reassemble" instead of replace.

Metal sleeve should be replaced unless you can't get it out. If I cannot remove with a little effort (without deforming the metal sleeve), I will check for ease of movement. Depending on how easy the plunger moves, I will either hammer out (with a mallet), cut out, or replace the coil if I just cannot free the sleeve and it must be replaced (due to wear on the inside, burrs, drag, etc).

#49 4 years ago

Ryan, metal sleeves will wear oddly due to the fact that it is metal on metal contact. As solenoids should not be lubed, over time, the plunger will wear through the sleeve. Also: when the solenoid activates it generates heat. This will deform the metal, making the problem worse. The issue with removing the sleeves is that they are typically wedged in pretty well (because of the other problems). See my previous post for advice on how to remove (sometimes I cheat and leave them in place - this would likely be one of those times).

2 weeks later
#55 4 years ago

1) Sure it's not goopy?
2) If not goopy at all - anywhere - increase the tension of the gear spring either by moving its connecting point on the gear or by looping an additional time.
3) Looking at the unit, you can see two screws under the spider. Loosen them and you will have pivoting ability on the disc. Rotate a bit clockwise (from the wiper side) and good to go! You're close enough that that adjustment should work.

-Nick

2 months later
#82 3 years ago

You can mean green and hose or just hose, but stuff will get trapped under other stuff. You done good. Time constraints are no good (referring to your alcohol cleaning of the exposed metal) - I've got to retie my Twinky using waxed thread, but ziptied cause I was on a deadline. Almost 1 year later, guess what's still there?

Re: rivets, or as my phone wants to say, rovers- those are the brass type that are normally on a stepper, but they are longer than normally found on a stepper. I would suggest just hanging onto them until you start troubleshooting gameplay for now. May not be needed at all. We'll find out soon!

-Nick

#88 3 years ago

It's factory - not to support the plastic, but to prevent ball traps. It is one of the titular pins in pinball.
You'll notice there's a mate behind each stand up switch covered by a rubber. This is to prevent the bal from getting trapped behind the switch in the event the rubber gives way.

#89 3 years ago

BTW, you'll want to take off the flippers and bumpers, apron and arch to do your big clean.

#94 3 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

At that point, is there any reason taking-out the under-plastic nail completely would be a bad idea?

Yeah, I would leave it. If it is rubbing the art, either the wrong posts were used, or the nail has backed out.

My suggestion: remove it to do your initial cleaning, then tap it in slightly further to prevent further wear.

The nails serve a purpose even with amazing upkeep. I wouldn't remove them, anyway. Your game, up to you, but they are there for a reason.

#102 3 years ago
Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

Yep. Replace both of those bad boys. Interesting... the ones on my game were hammered through the play field from the top as a kind of nail with threads looking deal and then the bushings were held to the bottom with nylock nuts. Yours appear to be merely screwed in from the bottom. I am sure someone else will say if that is correct or not.

That is correct. For a time, all four main manufacturers used similar bushing styles. Shortly after this, Williams changed to the threaded nail/nut combo you mention. I like this version better since it doesn't show up on top of the playfield.

Ryan, everything Mk1Mod0 mentions is correct about the flipper coil. From the looks of that coil, it appears it got pretty crispy. If you look at the coils near it, there's not a bunch of stains on the blue coil nearby, for example. Try to remove the sleeve. A crispy coil will still work but if you can't remove the sleeve on a flipper coil, replace it. Usually the place where the lugs attach becomes very brittle when the coil overheats. It might cumble as you disassemble.

As we've discussed, you definitely want to replace several flipper parts. You may be able to reuse the linkage/plunger/pawl. Examine for slop before placing your parts order. To replace linkage and plunger, you'll need to move the roll pin to the new parts. We'll get there soon enough.

-Nick

#108 3 years ago

Re: metal - told ya!

For the pawls - replace. I know I'm cheap, but in this case, you should get new parts. The wrong parts will strip threads or cause other problems. Also for the shafts: replace those. Most of the time that flippers are changed, those should be replaced.

The tape on the coil is just that. You can see it was used to hold the coil together / separate the wires. Not factory.

Wire is likely pretty close to its home. Check the wire color on that coil behind it. Might've just broken off there. Often coils are daisy-chained. I fully expect you'll find other joys there, like with the standups that are off kilter or were closed off by rubbers. Whee!

#112 3 years ago

Good job - replace pop bumper bodies, rings and rods, skirts, sockets and the plates underneath (which we haven't gotten around to discussing yet) at a minimum. You may be able to reuse the springs. Once you have the bumpers off you can evaluate.

You can probably save on the caps since you'll likely be repainting them for the retheme.

Remember that you have a mixture of passive and pop bumpers (or Jet Bumpers as Williams called them) on the playfield. You only need to order the rings and rods and under playfield plates and nuts for the active bumpers.

Also: passive bumper bodies are different than pop bumper bodies - they have a space for a rubber ring. Be sure to specify this in your order for the two passives.

Cracked and crushed bodies are extremely common - I've worked on games with the wrong size screw in the cap which caused the body to split after repeated movement of the rod and ring. It also cracks due to the heat of the bulb against the body. As the pop bulbs are typically GI, they're on the whole time the game is on. You can replace the bulb with a 51 to reduce heat against the cap itself and heat inside the bumper. Bulbs are expensive (compared to 47s), but you'll only need one pack for this game. Will future-proof your freshly painted caps.

Replacing those parts on the pops and passives will make the game a lot_ more lively. You'll be happy that you shelled out the bucks once it's done.

Have fun on vacation!

1 week later
#117 3 years ago

Ryan, you hardly need me any more *sniff*

You're going to have this thing cleaned up and playing like a dream very soon.

Good job! And pops are a skill that transfers to any machine (with pops or passive bumpers).

#124 3 years ago

Spring is correct on the advance unit. Good job!

#127 3 years ago

Steel wool or rust remover, if you can soak it. Remember that once you've done this, the metal's protective coating will be gone (it was eaten away when the rust happened anyway). Once you've got it acceptably shiny, you'll need to protect the part with wax to prevent more rust from forming.

As this particular part gets beat every time the ball is pushed to the shooter lane, you'll need to pay close attention to it and wax it every few months to prevent it from getting bad again. It's not as bad as I'm making it sound.

#129 3 years ago

Soak it in rust remover. Lots of highly toxic substances to try. Doesn't really look like it will be much of a challenge for steel wool, though. You can dip the steel wool in alcohol, sometimes that helps to cut the rust a bit. But since you have done a basic polish and gotten the dirt off, steel wool by itself should do the trick. Like with sandpaper, you start coarse and go finer (or just use a light touch). It will take some elbow grease to remove the rust.

Also, I thought that that was a different part, haha. But yes, this one gets beat too.

#133 3 years ago

Ryan, I've tumbled some pretty big stuff, but it depends on the size of your tumbler.

I have had middling results with a tumbler but haven't experimented too much. It works, but takes days and days to do the job (at least with the media and polish combos that I've tried). Most of my games were total rust buckets initially, so that may have something to do with it. I get better results by hand, but I'm always interested in learning new tricks as well.

You can pop basically anything metal in a tumbler. Turn it on and walk away for a few days. Screws, nails, brackets, bolts, nuts, kicker arms, etc.

FrankJ - what combo of stuff do you put in the tumbler to make it work? Do you have the same experience of days before something usable comes out?

I've used the walnut shells and corn media, as well as various polishes or plain. Do you have a recipe like 5 parts walnut to 1 part polish or something similar?

1 week later
#175 3 years ago

I've been working on a basket-case Expo recently (parted out head, cabinet and head FULL of hair. Some of which appears to be mouse, some of which is cat, some might be rat).

Just chiming in here about the posts. The different sized posts are fairly easy to note based on the position on the plastics. For example, the sling plastics require the slightly taller posts with the lip. Shorter posts are screwed underneath a plastic and the third type runs to the plastic as per normal.

Ryan, the plastic spacers prevent shorting internally between the screw and the various switches. One switch blade had power and the other provides a connection to one or more relays when powered. If the switch blades are shorted to the screw, it will register an immediate and constant switch closure.

When you get to the point of turning the game on, you will need to carefully watch for the closure of relays and stuck chime coils. Some coils, such as trip relays, will burn very quickly. Some coils, like the chime coils, will burn and be very difficult to take apart/replace.

The watchword is watch.

Switch may be OK. May need to have the spacer replaced. I may be able to send you a spare spacer, but they can be hard to install. To install/remove, you will have to be very careful not to twist the Bakelite spacers or the plastic spacers. They will snap.

All for now!

#180 3 years ago

Wire wheel takes practice. Are you doing with a drill press or a hand drill?

Using a wire wheel on a drill press gives you fine control - the press is operated via foot pedal.

Safety glasses and gloves are a must, as you well know.

Good job on the bakelite reduction. Sometimes the bakelite pulverizes, and you have to do stuff like that. I have a small stash of switch parts, and usually just pull a spare spacer. Your fix will work fine and you were right to do it. Your switch will need to be adjusted differently. You'll need to observe ball travel. You may want to move the good spacer piece from one stack to the other depending on how much exercise that switch gets.

I haven't talked much about that Expo on the podcast - I'm sure you'll hear all about it soon, if you really want to. Short answer, yes, it's running now. The long answer involves lots of grease and hair.

Yum!

#196 3 years ago

The only time I've ever had to replace a switch is when it is missing completely (to be found in the bottom of the cabinet somewhere), or if the contact starts coming loose. I do the solder trick, but you have to be careful of the switch that you do this to.

The sling switches are always mangled. Remember that the ball slams into them with high frequency and velocity. Couple that with the fact that they are not easy to adjust if you're lazy and you get funky looking contacts.

To straighten, if needed, you can take a pair of needle or chain nosed pliers and mash them horizontally across the bend. Honestly, I wouldn't bother. You'll have to adjust once rubber is on to see what you need to do anyway...

That one looks usable to me!

#198 3 years ago

I absolutely use a switch adjuster when I am actually making an adjustment - I only use the needle nose when trying to unbend, in case that wasn't clear.

The Z-pattern is a good idea - it reinforces that area a bit.

#224 3 years ago

Lookin good! Don't forget to plug your above-playfield bulbs in before putting rubbers on. It'll save you some minor frustration.

Now, you may still have to clean those sockets or repair or replace. But at least a bulb will be in there...

Actually, that's a fair point: if you have a socket cleaning stick, now's the time to swirl it around inside each of the exposed lamp holes. If not, well, we will just deal with that later.

#253 3 years ago

Absolutely correct. Any silvered or darkened bulbs will fail soon and run really hot until they do.

I usually relamp with 47s while I'm killing dead bulbs.

1 week later
#289 3 years ago

I think I mentioned this previously or privately to you, but I would have replaced those sockets. Despite being a real cheapskate myself, I believe I said that they were pretty gross.

Sorry Ryan!

Now, that said, it's possible you can make these work... but why? You will have to polish those to get good electrical contact, and that is tough to do due to the construction of the socket. You won't have to worry about flickery sockets if you replace them. At least, flickery due to a crummy socket.

The legs/leads don't look that bad, if that helps.

#292 3 years ago

I'm curious about the effect that the peroxide treatment would have on the insulator built into the socket. I would assume that it would dry it out, possibly allowing a short?

#294 3 years ago

Re-read your previous comment, understood it this time, now I'm with you, haha.

#305 3 years ago

Pecos is correct about bending the legs of the spider, however, if after rebuild they still don't touch properly, you will need to bend. This happens when someone fat fingers the unit when adjusting something else, then wonders why the game doesn't work.

In the bingos, they did this sort of misadjustment intentionally (or much worse), so be thankful that this looks accidental.

#318 3 years ago

Flexstones look like a cross between sandpaper and emery board. And they work in a similar fashion. You're filing the crud off of the switch.

The unfortunate side-effect of this is that, aside from (lightly) filing the switch, you are also spreading conductive dust. I've been on the bad side of troubleshooting a problem with the dust. Not fun. You also have to replace them frequently because the dust that is abrasive comes off of them, leaving you with thick paper. They are maybe 2-3 inches long. It can also be very difficult to use them in certain situations because of the length.

Ignition files are made for reshaping contact points. If the switch is pitted (which dirt can cause) you use the ignition file to file out the pit. You can also use them to lightly file off the crud if it's really bad. They are longer, they are stronger, and they last a very very long time.

If it's just a little bit dirty? You can clean them the same way you might clean a solid state switch - business card (cardstock) dragged through the switch multiple times.

My personal opinion only, and everyone's got the right to their own of course, is that you can use the ignition files with finesse, having a single tool to do your cleaning and shaping. It has worked very well for me, and ensures that you have proper transfer of current. Sometimes it is hard to tell when the switch stack is assembled that there is fine pitting. Again, you don't have to go full bore with the tool and can use lightly to accomplish the same thing (with less chance of a dusty side-effect).

Now, it's not like the dirt and metal that the file removes won't bite you in a similar way - it's just less likely cause there's less of it.

My opinion only! Both ways work! Pick what you like best and stick with it. For $1, try out flexstones and see if you like them.

#319 3 years ago

Oh, and yes, you don't ever file wiper contacts. Ever. Don't even flexstone them.

#321 3 years ago

Totally different. Used mainly in circuit board repair to clean traces.

#325 3 years ago

Edit #2: Ulp, beat to the punch by FrankJ! Yes, what he said. Everyone has their own methods. Mine are relatively abrasive.

Magic Eraser should not, in my opinion (again only my opinion), be used on the wiper boards as it leaves behind lots of junk as it self-disintegrates. It will likely clean the gunk off (though that may be more in the alcohol than the sandpapery melmanine foam).

The fiberglass eraser is totally different and could work, but the contact surface is so large, and you typically have much more than 5 V required to make the journey through the legs of the spider (depends on what it is doing!). This means that you would run through the fiberglass erasers like water (they also wear down) to get the same level of cleanliness that the Scotch-brite provides. I use those (edit 1: meaning the fiberglass erasers) when working on solid state boards all the time.

Yes, the scotch-brite is more abrasive, however, the surface area is also large.

Just my .02 (which doesn't really amount to much).

#328 3 years ago

Nice. Again, for clarity, I don't use scotch brite on the wiper arms either. I was talking about the Bakelite disc. The fiberglass pen does clean that spider up nicely.

I also don't remove the Bakelite disc from the game. The type of scotch brite I use does not shed readily. I hear what you're saying, though.

I wouldn't have tried the fiberglass eraser, so nice to see another method!

#350 3 years ago

If you have some portable sawhorses, you can lay a blanket across them, then set your playfield on it to make life a little easier.

#374 3 years ago

You're right - the spoon needs to be adjusted. It should not hang in any direction. You should also see the switch close when pushed in any direction.

#377 3 years ago

No, adjusting happens by loosening the screws that hold the switch bracket in place. You can then move the spoon forwards and backwards, then tighten the screws. You want the 'nipple' of the skirt to sit right in the center of the spoon. It's pretty easy to tell as it will get stuck on a particular angle if not. You have to tighten the screws to test, then simply use your finger and poke to the extremes of every angle around the circle. Ensure that the skirt properly self-centers between tests.

Do not adjust the spoon leaf - this falls into the category of 'don't adjust the long blade'.

Also, the tops of the spoons tend to gather a lot_ of crud. Some operators greased the spoons for faster operation, others just never cleaned unless they had to change the spoon.

It's a good idea to clean the tops of the spoons if you had not done so previously.

#381 3 years ago

I've already let him know about the stuck switch in the upper right and about 51 bulbs to prevent cap burning, for those that may be thinking along those lines.

1 week later
#405 3 years ago

Ryan, so very happy your heart is beating - and regularly. Stay healthy! Games can wait. Your health cannot.

1 week later
#429 3 years ago

Your spring washer is installed incorrectly. It goes under the plate that the coil sleeve travels through and not on top of same.

#432 3 years ago

Spring washers are fairly rigid and yes should be a bit 'warped'. They absorb the impact of the plunger/pawl assembly and keep it from turning your coil stop into powder.

Used on flippers and other high-impact coils (replay registers on bingos, etc etc etc)

#450 3 years ago

So, the thing to remember is that the left prong is neutral. Regardless of width of prong. The right prong is hot. follow the wire down on the right-hand side. This is hot. It should be attached to the brown wire.

Neutral is on the left and should be attached to the yellow wire.

Ground = green and should be soldered there.

2 weeks later
#486 3 years ago

Pecos, I will also weigh in - note that I am also loathe to post as I suspect that for both of us, this will ignite discussion for good or ill. Note that this is only my opinion and is only worth the electrons used to display it. Everyone you talk to will have a method to getting a machine going.

Electricity is the lifeblood of any electrical or electronic device and ensuring that there is a clean and unencumbered path will allow the machine to function at peak capacity.

However, this is a “teach a man to fish” moment. 

I could say, “Jump in and clean it from one end to the other. Talk to you in a month.”
Or I could teach you HOW that electricity moves. WHY it moves, and WHAT needs to be done to keep it moving. This is much more valuable.

Unfortunately, I am depriving you of the joy of finding odd timing bugs (slightly misadjusted motor and relay switches), or worse, odd bugs caused by shavings or dirt that has moved during the cleaning process. But in the end, if he does not clean every switch, Ryan will understand the electrical theory behind his machine, and thus any (EM) pinball machine.

Also of note: these machines were not designed to collect dirt and die. They are amazing marvels of engineering. One may view it as a clunking set of switches and cams, but in actuality the machine is self-cleaning with every relay movement. Overtravel, or deflection, is the built-in mechanical method that the switches have to clean themselves. It is rare that the overtravel will not keep the machine in good running order.

Ordinarily, my experience is that some handfuls of issues will be present on a terribly filthy game. Understanding how the feature is supposed to work by reading the schematic helps you to understand which switches are involved and focus your attention on the bad. This gets the machine up and running quicker, while helping you in the future if the feature stops working.

It is overkill to clean all contacts. If cleaning all contacts was the solution, why do problems remain at all? The answer is that you can easily create other problems. The reality is that it is far too much work for far too little payoff.

On one of my first machines, I was told to clean every contact. I could read schematics, but regardless, I dutifully cleaned every contact. This was the worst mistake that I believe I've ever made in my EM life. Almost 100% of the problems I have today with that machine are due to overzealous cleaning during the initial run. My own fault, but why go there? It wasn't necessary to get the game running (and keep it running).

Understanding what the machine is supposed to do is critical to fixing it properly.

I've talked to techs that just read the manual. Well, if that was all it took, why did the manufacturers  bother with the schematic? The schematic is crucial for understanding the current path. If you do not understand the current path, you will never get a machine to be 100% reliable. It doesn't mean that you can't fix it without reading the schematic.

Again, just my opinion. Do with it what you will. Not intending to argue or anything.

Also: I've mentioned it on my show before a couple of times, but I'm working on an Expo (slowly, can't breathe when near it) that was filled to the brim with rodent and cat hair. I removed all the hair, inspected a few spots for rodent issues, and had to wire in a full set of score reels, along with several under-playfield components that were cut. This Expo actually plays very well. And this did not require cleaning of every switch despite the terrible initial condition.

OK last thing: for high power or very visible items, I will clean preemptively depending on era: for example, cabinet flipper switches, pop activation switches, slings and kickout activation switches. For games with DC in those high travel/visible areas I do not bother unless I notice a problem (spark), outside of cabinet flipper switches. DC is a slightly different beast. You've rebuilt the mechanisms, so there should be no binding.

Regardless of the method you choose, you'll have a working game at the end. Troubleshooting by schematic will give you the skill to fix any other machine from the 30s to the late 70s. Solid state machines require a slightly different thought process, but the basics are the same.

In the end, Ryan has done much more by cleaning all the steppers in his game than he would achieve by cleaning all switches. The game will be snappy and play very well.

Again, regardless of method chosen, I'm excited that you'll have brought this dead machine back to life! One of the best thrills in pinball.

#489 3 years ago

Pecos, thanks - I agree 100% that it does take time and patience. However, the end result is that you'll be much faster at repair than previously. I'm happy to help with schematic reading for anyone that needs a hand. I was lucky enough to take some basic electrical theory and engineering classes long before starting into the pinball repair hobby.

The Expo is for a customer and thankfully not in my work space... Otherwise I would not be posting (lack of breath)! It is a fun game, though. The nice mice/rats only nibbled the edges of the schematic. I'm only able to work on it about an hour at a time unless the playfield glass and back door are on.

#500 3 years ago

Thanks Pecos! In the end, it was not a long battle. I'm sure Ryan will chime in this evening. Now he knows my troubleshooting technique, some basics about electricity and pinball electricity in particular, and how to clean a machine.

Now he needs a bingo.

#502 3 years ago
Quoted from brandsilence:

Nick - I would love to know your process/techniques. Have you considered doing a "bingopodcast guide to EM schematics" type of guide?

Absolutely, though it will likely be in the form of one of my podcast episodes. I'm not great with visual aides, but most any schematic is aide enough.

I've done an early episode (I think sub ep. 50) on schematic symbols and troubleshooting, but I believe those episodes focused on Gottlieb schematics. I'll do one on a Williams or Bally flipper game that you can read along with on IPDB.

#504 3 years ago

Looks like episode 17 and 18 were my initial stabs. I'll do a good combined show on Bally or Williams schematics.

#511 3 years ago

Ryan, you've done great and learned a tremendous amount in a short time. In fact, I think for your next project, you'll be set in no time.

Your problems were incredibly minor, as the above example highlights - in fact, just getting the machine to live required 3 simple switch adjustments. I think in total you ended up doing 6 switch adjustments after reassembling steppers and playfield units.

Two points:
1) I believe your pops are still not lighting, as discussed this is due to junk sockets.
2) I'm pretty sure that your machine is 100% (aside from the bad sockets in your pops and bad chimes)?

Ensure that you test several games as single player, then do the same with several two player games. Note any problems. If there are any problems, repeat your test. If there are no problems, you're good!

If you have repeatable problems, you now know how to troubleshoot, and you know what a Drum Unit is, so you should be set. I showed you the legend and how to read it - one thing we didn't touch on was how to determine Jones Plug wiring issues, but those are the hairiest types of problems, and you don't have any on this game (thankfully).

I'm only a phone call away should you need another lesson, but I think you'll be all set for any game you tackle in the future!

Congratulations! Enjoy Swinger!

#512 3 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

He admitted he was hoping I'd say this.

Oh, this was because you had gotten confident enough to tackle without any help whatsoever - I knew that was coming. To start, I had you look at the coil names and then showed you how to work backwards. It was only a matter of time (like three tracings) before you started doing it on your own.

If you'll recall, I had actually had you troubleshoot your lock relay as well.

#515 3 years ago

Ha! Well, the wire colors are crucial as well as identifying the relay, stepper or other unit involved.

Following the yellow common wire helps you to understand the direction the current flows. Thinking of it this way is a cheat: it actually flows in both directions because it is A/C, but it is much easier to understand if you think of it as unidirectional. But the problem is rarely with the common, it is between the common and the black hot wire above the coil. Using the wire colors will help you find the exact switch on the relay that is a problem.

With the manual, you can compare to the schematic and see what is what. The manuals for Williams games are very detailed and show each switch on a detailed drawing of the relay, which is fairly useful if your labels are worn away. Wire colors are still important.

Hope that helps, but happy to go into further detail if you'd like.

1 week later
#521 3 years ago

Ryan, no, solder is not strong enough. You need something that will permanently bond the metal to metal. Precisely what welding does.

Solder (silver solder) would hold for a time, then vibrate apart. Silver solder has higher tensile strength than typical lead-free or leaded solder. Nice drawing, though!

All chime units are interchangeable, with enough work, as we've discussed before. It's not even that much work!

You only have to ensure that they are driven at the proper voltage - based on the coil rating. If you are swapping in a solid state chime box, you simply cut the diodes off the coils.

As various manufacturers did have differences in their chime designs over the years (as you can see from the two examples in your games), they also potentially used different coils. Just make sure your coils are driven by the appropriate line (check your schematic for whatever the donor game was, if you know it - if not, I and others can help you figure it out based on similar games). Ballys are probably 50v (depending on game), Williams and Gottlieb 25 or 24v. I can help with a retrofit, as I'm sure most of these folks can as well. You have a solid Jones plug that you can transfer to a new unit. It'll mostly be plug and play (after you transfer the wiring).

As we discussed - if you can find an intact donor unit, you'll be better off. Not that originality matters on this game as it will be rethemed... so do as your heart, and your helper, command.

2 weeks later
#564 3 years ago

Ryan, you need to vaccum out the area under your tilt bob in swinger. All that junk is going to cause a problem next time you move the game. I assume you're going to move it to spray your new artwork on the cab, so you'll turn the cab up and... problems.

Chunks missing on the tilt bob are fairly common. It'll work fine, but may be less balanced than before. Though it uses one of the screws, so it is already not perfectly balanced.

....and finally, you'll be pretty sad when you play one of my games, based on that Jubilee plumb bob position.

1 week later
#573 3 years ago

Using the manual and schematic, you can see the wire which is supposed to trigger the 5000 point relay. You must test continuity between this wire and the relay switch. As your 1000 fires instead, this is consistent with a misaligned unit. So... I would take a step back and think about how this should work.

The swinging target motor basically just moves that continuous stepper. It's doing so. End of story on that.

The 5000 points are activated by positions on that advance unit (stepper). Verify the fingers and traces involved using the manual. Test for continuity with the wire that triggers the 5000 point relay. Now test to the wire that provides power to the 1000 pt relay. You may have continuity in both_ places. In this case, it may just be a short. There's simply not enough voltage after the drop of the 1000pt relay to fire the 5000 as well... so you get the behavior you described to me. (Haven't watched the video, hope this matches up). That's just one possibility.

So... based on that logic, if you have a short, how do you find it? It can only be in so many places, luckily, and since that advance unit is placed in the typical Williams fashion, (i.e. cram it in as far back on the playfield as possible so that anyone unlucky enough to lift the playfield is likely to damage it or the wiring behind it), you may have a couple of wires shorted together either on the unit itself or in the bundle going to the jones plug. Continuity tests are your friend, here, but time consuming. Wires touching underneath the female jones plug can take a while to find sometimes. Look closely at the Jones plug where this wire appears (verify wire color on male side of plug).

There are ways to narrow down a short, but first, do your simple tests to the 5000 pt relay from that one wire that feeds it.

I know it would have been a longshot for the teflon to be conductive (since it's not), but it's a good idea to do that job properly, and too much lube is just as bad or worse than not enough.

#574 3 years ago

Oh, and to test the stepper - step it to the 5000 position and test continuity from the finger on the spider to the 5000 pt relay.

#578 3 years ago

Check the position of the wipers on the scoring side when scoring inaccurately and compare to lamp side.

Only those first three are wrong?

Check the wire colors as attached to the feeds for 1000, 3000, and 5000 pts. Correct colors in correct spots? Give a nice lil tug on each of the feed wires. See what happens. Don't pull too hard. You're just trying to see if you have a cold solder joint.

More likely is that you have the disc ever so slightly out of line. Bend in wiper for scoring is doing that in three positions, perhaps.

Does it do it from every of the first three positions no matter position of stepper.

The large fingers will wipe across scoring area because stepper is continuous.

3 weeks later
#602 3 years ago

Great episode - super in-depth review of Swinger's shots. Sounds like you need to come to York. Beat the Clock has made an appearance or two since I've been going. Remember that all your questions are answered on the schematic.

7 months later
#681 2 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

I think you need to just admit you're keeping Swinger the way it is and are going to make an original game instead.

You know a guy that could help, Ryan...

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
2,800 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Phoenix, AZ
$ 399.95
$ 8.00
Cabinet Parts
RPGCor
From: $ 500.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Gameroom Mods
$ 30.40
$ 99.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 25.00
Playfield - Plastics
Bright Lights Pinball
$ 24.25
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 38.75
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 9.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
pinballmod
$ 24.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
From: $ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Music City Pinball
$ 13.00
From: $ 8,500.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Pro
€ 27.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
YOYOKOPTER MODS
$ 79.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Hookedonpinball.com
$ 69.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 59.99
Hardware
Chroma Pinball

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider bingopodcast.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside