(Topic ID: 271863)

Williams Super Flite starts on ball 2 / Need schematic help

By ivanx

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

I've been helping a neighbor with his Williams Super Flite. I managed to repair most of the problems but this one has me stumped. The game starts on ball 2. So the game begins by ball 1 lighting up on the backglass, after a brief moment 1000 points is given, the backglass light advances to ball 2 and the ball is kicked into play. From there game play is normal, it advances to ball 3 and then to game over when the ball drains. When the ball is taken from the outhole and placed into the shooting lane manually before start, the ball count also advances normally.

I think I tracked down the problem in the ball count unit but I need assistance. The red circled switch continuity tests as *always closed* regardless of the state of the game. I've pulled the jones plugs from the backbox and the switch tested good manually after that so i know the problem isn't in the backbox.

What switch is this in the schematic? I think I'm looking in the right area. If you have ideas I'd love hear them. If I figure it out I'll post the solution. Thanks.

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#6 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

As noted above, the game thinks your first ball has just drained, so it's giving the 1000 bonus and advancing the ball count. What happens if you start the game while holding the ball, then drain it? What does it show for ball count on the backglass before you drain that ball? Also, does the ball kicker pop the ball right up into the shooter lane or is it weak?

Thanks everyone for the replies.

If I hold the ball in hand on game start, the backglass light advances to ball 1 and the ball kicker doesn't fire. When I then drain the ball it advances the light to ball 2, score +1000, the kicker fires and the game plays normally from this point on. One of my repairs was to replace the outhole kicker coil as it tested bad.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Is the ball sitting squarely on the trough sw to start (hard to tell, I know)? It sounds like it's a bit off initially, so that when it's kicked it then hits the sw., which would account for the 'drain' effect with the score and balll count advance.

I checked out your additional thoughts, no success. I've been racking my brain as I've gone through all of the switch setups and compared their state to the manual and the schematics. Checked the jones plugs for continuity and verified all connections. Then it finally dawned on me that I never checked the ohms on my replacement parts. And sure enough I found that the replacement Lock Relay coil of Z-29-1250 is at 0.6 ohm instead of the 18 ohm range.

So I did another full ohm test of all coils in the body and I think I've got another 2 that are on their way out.. Thoughts on these below?

Game Over Relay / M-29-1000 / Tested 8.2 ohm / Good range 14.7 ohm
Ball Index Relay / Z-28-1150 / Tested 7.9 ohm / Good range 14.2 ohm

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from edednedy:

Coils either work or they don't. None of those address your problem.
Something is causing your ball index to energize too soon. Since you are getting an extra 1000 points, that's your most likely suspect.
I would concentrate on switches on your bonus unit. Chances are that's what is causing your 1000 point issue. Find the reason for 1000 points and you'll solve the ball count problem.

Quoted from MarkG:

Are you measuring coil resistance with the coils in circuit? Unless you desolder one of the solder lugs or study the schematic you can't be sure that there isn't a parallel path around the coil that is affecting the resistance reading. The meter shows you the combined resistance of all the paths it sees between the probes, not just the one you're interested in.
It's possible but unlikely that you have multiple bad coils. Coils don't often fail unless they've been overheated or otherwise abused.
I'd follow edednedy's advice.

Quoted from currieddog:

Check sw. C here.
[quoted image]

Will do, I'll inspect the Ball Index and test my suspect coils out of circuit. I also recorded video of the sequence of activity on game start with/without the ball in the outhole. I stepped through the video and this is what I monitored in the body and under the playfield.

With ball on game start—
1) Reset Relay On / Replay Relay On / Coin Relay On
2) Game Over Relay Off
3) Bank Reset
4) Replay Relay Off / Coin Relay Off
5) Bonus Unit
6) Bank Reset
7) Bonus Unit / Reset Relay Off / Ball Index Relay On
8) Bonus Unit / Outhole Relay On
9) Bank Reset
10) Outhole Relay Off

Result: Ball 2 lit up and the ball in the shooter lane, game play is normal from here on --

Without ball on game start—
1) Reset Relay On / Replay Relay On / Coin Relay On
2) Game Over Relay Off
3) Bank Reset
4) Replay Relay Off / Coin Relay Off
5) Bonus Unit
6) Bank Reset
7) Bonus Unit / Reset Relay Off / Ball Index Relay On

Result: Ball 1 lit up, if I place the ball in the shooter lane, game play is normal from here on --

1 week later
#13 1 year ago

Back at it again. I tested Lock Relay coil of the Z-29-1250 out of circuit and it was 18 ohm, so its good.

I thought I did a continuity test on Ball Index Relay switches, I guess not. I found a closed switch which is normally open in the "A" circuit. I tested the switch out of circuit too and then it's open so I know there isn't any random material bridging the circuit. My manual is slightly different than the Ball Index Relay diagram you posted above. Looks like I need to track down E-12 on my schematic.

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#15 1 year ago

Thank you Rolf, I think I'm making some headway. I check the Tilt Relay and A, B, C circuits are closed although they are visibly open. No bridges or connections seem to be present.

The plumb bob tilt, the ball roll down tilt and playfield vibration tile switch all register as closed although they are visibly open. After disconnecting all jones plugs, the tilt switches returned to their open state. However the Tilt Relay A,B,C circuits are still registering as closed with all jones plugs disconnected.

Can I safely say the problem is located in the bottom of the cabinet?

tiltrelay (resized).jpg

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