(Topic ID: 194818)

Williams Star Pool ball count advances to end game.....SOLVED

By Sonora70

5 years ago


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  • 12 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Sonora70
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0Star-Pool-Work-03 (resized).jpg
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0Star-Pool-ipdb-1861-B-then-ORPALIS-reduced.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 5 years ago

Stumped. A friend has a Star Pool and it has started this problem. After pressing the start button the game will "generally" complete the start up and kick a ball into the shooter lane. After the first ball drains it resets the playfield but cycles through all the remaining balls to end the game. It appears to be having a problem completing the reset for the next ball and rarely kicks the ball into the shooter lane. I've checked the outhole switches, ball index relay switches, visually inspected score motor switches 1B and 2B, player reset relay and extra ball relay. I have also visually inspected the ball count unit and coin unit. I'm getting continuity across the switches (open or closed) on the ball count unit. I know that it is not uncommon to get continuity across open switches on relays, but this seems odd to me. I suspect it is a switch problem on the score motor however the schematic (tough to follow as I'm using the one on the IPDB site) shows switches 1B and 2B. I have the motor board out of the cabinet so that I can get a good look at them and they seem correct.

#2 5 years ago

Hi Sonora70
I do not own the pin - I do not know the pin --- I look at the ipdb-stuff. Before getting into trouble-shooting I would like to get answers from You to make sure I understand the functionality of the pin and I understand the fault.

From the ipdb-stuff I believe "Every new ball given starts with the Bonus-Ladder 'one bonus given for free' " is this true ? - When You start a new game and the pin kicks-out the first ball - is the Bonus set to ONE-Bonus given ? Please write about.

Assuming "always ONE Bonus given" --- You play the first ball and You make some points and You make some more Bonus --- then You loose the ball - ball enters the Outhole - pin steps down the Bonus-Ladder - the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and the Score-Motor is running and the pin steps to next ball on the Ball-Count-Unit --- question: Does the Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus --- then again stepping on the Ball-Count-Unit, Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus and on and on ? Please give a detailled description.

IF (if, if) the fault happens as "described above" - please try: When loosing the first ball --- do NOT let the BALL roll into the Outhole --- use a FINGER - manually close the Switch in the Outhole --- Bonus is counted down - the pin steps to next ball - NOW, YOU take away Your finger - what happens ?

I happen to like to "work" on schematics - so I have taken the ipdb-PDF, made single pages of JPG-format, put together the snippets of schematics into an continuous JPG-Schematics of 3.8 MB data --- then made an PDF out of this (result is 3.3 MB data PDF). I do not post such mega MB data in pinside --- I then used the free "Orpalis PDF Reducer" and show its Output here (some 230 KB data). IF (if, if) You want me to send to You the 3.8 MB and/or 3.3 MB data files: Write me an personal message with an EMail-Address and I will send the stuff to You. Greetings Rolf

0Star-Pool-ipdb-1861-B-then-ORPALIS-reduced.pdf

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sonora70
I do not own the pin - I do not know the pin --- I look at the ipdb-stuff. Before getting into trouble-shooting I would like to get answers from You to make sure I understand the functionality of the pin and I understand the fault.
From the ipdb-stuff I believe "Every new ball given starts with the Bonus-Ladder 'one bonus given for free' " is this true ? - When You start a new game and the pin kicks-out the first ball - is the Bonus set to ONE-Bonus given ? Please write about.
Assuming "always ONE Bonus given" --- You play the first ball and You make some points and You make some more Bonus --- then You loose the ball - ball enters the Outhole - pin steps down the Bonus-Ladder - the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and the Score-Motor is running and the pin steps to next ball on the Ball-Count-Unit --- question: Does the Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus --- then again stepping on the Ball-Count-Unit, Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus and on and on ? Please give a detailled description.
IF (if, if) the fault happens as "described above" - please try: When loosing the first ball --- do NOT let the BALL roll into the Outhole --- use a FINGER - manually close the Switch in the Outhole --- Bonus is counted down - the pin steps to next ball - NOW, YOU take away Your finger - what happens ?
I happen to like to "work" on schematics - so I have taken the ipdb-PDF, made single pages of JPG-format, put together the snippets of schematics into an continuous JPG-Schematics of 3.8 MB data --- then made an PDF out of this (result is 3.3 MB data PDF). I do not post such mega MB data in pinside --- I then used the free "Orpalis PDF Reducer" and show its Output here (some 230 KB data). IF (if, if) You want me to send to You the 3.8 MB and/or 3.3 MB data files: Write me an personal message with an EMail-Address and I will send the stuff to You. Greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf. I see what you're saying. I'll take a look at it and report back. I would like a copy of the schematic you made. I'll send a pm.

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sonora70
I do not own the pin - I do not know the pin --- I look at the ipdb-stuff. Before getting into trouble-shooting I would like to get answers from You to make sure I understand the functionality of the pin and I understand the fault.
From the ipdb-stuff I believe "Every new ball given starts with the Bonus-Ladder 'one bonus given for free' " is this true ? - When You start a new game and the pin kicks-out the first ball - is the Bonus set to ONE-Bonus given ? Please write about.
Assuming "always ONE Bonus given" --- You play the first ball and You make some points and You make some more Bonus --- then You loose the ball - ball enters the Outhole - pin steps down the Bonus-Ladder - the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and the Score-Motor is running and the pin steps to next ball on the Ball-Count-Unit --- question: Does the Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus --- then again stepping on the Ball-Count-Unit, Bonus-Ladder steps up to ONE-Bonus given --- then faulty steps down to Zero-Bonus and on and on ? Please give a detailled description.
IF (if, if) the fault happens as "described above" - please try: When loosing the first ball --- do NOT let the BALL roll into the Outhole --- use a FINGER - manually close the Switch in the Outhole --- Bonus is counted down - the pin steps to next ball - NOW, YOU take away Your finger - what happens ?
I happen to like to "work" on schematics - so I have taken the ipdb-PDF, made single pages of JPG-format, put together the snippets of schematics into an continuous JPG-Schematics of 3.8 MB data --- then made an PDF out of this (result is 3.3 MB data PDF). I do not post such mega MB data in pinside --- I then used the free "Orpalis PDF Reducer" and show its Output here (some 230 KB data). IF (if, if) You want me to send to You the 3.8 MB and/or 3.3 MB data files: Write me an personal message with an EMail-Address and I will send the stuff to You. Greetings Rolf

Rolf, had about 5 minutes this afternoon to take a look. Yes, it gives a "free" bonus at startup. I did not however look to see if it continues to give the bonus, take it away, give, take away, ect....

When the ball drains, the bonus steps down then it tries to reset everything. Everything resets except it never kicks the ball back into the shooting lane. After looking at the schematic you sent (thanks!) I wonder if score motor switch 4A may need to be cleaned/adjusted. This pulses the ball release coil possibly allowing it to completely reset? Thoughts?

This evening when I get home I plan to take a look at this switch. I'll also take a closer look at what happens with the bonus unit.

#5 5 years ago

Another observation I forgot to add, it adds 100 points each time it tries to reset.

#6 5 years ago

Another critical observation, the advance unit is not resetting, it's stepping down to give the bonus but it's not resetting back to the position to give the 1000 point that should happen at the beginning of the ball.

Situation is getting a little worse, it is not always finishing the reset sequence when starting a new game.

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from Sonora70:

Another critical observation, the advance unit is not resetting, it's stepping down to give the bonus but it's not resetting back to the position to give the 1000 point that should happen at the beginning of the ball.
Situation is getting a little worse, it is not always finishing the reset sequence when starting a new game.

Check the switch that makes contact when the bonus unit zeroes out. This pic isn't Star Pool but you get the idea. There is a switch stack that operates via the post on the wheel. Make sure those switches are making contact when the bonus unit is at zero. If it doesn't the game will never reset, move to the next ball or kick a ball out. I had this problem with my Star Pool after I went through the game completely. Stated up first time, drained and wouldn't reset or kick the ball.

A simple switch adjustment fixed it.

IMG_0423 (resized).JPG

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from bflagg:

Check the switch that makes contact when the bonus unit zeroes out. This pic isn't Star Pool but you get the idea. There is a switch stack that operates via the post on the wheel. Make sure those switches are making contact when the bonus unit is at zero. If it doesn't the game will never reset, move to the next ball or kick a ball out. I had this problem with my Star Pool after I went through the game completely. Stated up first time, drained and wouldn't reset or kick the ball.
A simple switch adjustment fixed it.

Thanks for the tip. I have checked that switch...even shorted across it and still not results. I think this leads me to a switch on the score motor. I'm going to Staples to have a full size schematic printed so that I can hopefully be able to figure this one out.

#9 5 years ago

Hi Sonora70
I am interested to "work" on Your Star Pool problem --- in post-4 You write "When the (very first) ball drains ... NO KICK-OUT of the ball to the shooter alley". In post-1 You mention ... instead of kicking out a new ball the pin cycles through the balls (stepping the Ball-Count-Unit) to "Game-Over".
Please write what situation You have by now --- especially about (Yes or no) "The pin cycles through the balls (stepping the Ball-Count-Unit) to 'Game-Over' ". Greetings Rolf

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sonora70
I am interested to "work" on Your Star Pool problem --- in post-4 You write "When the (very first) ball drains ... NO KICK-OUT of the ball to the shooter alley". In post-1 You mention ... instead of kicking out a new ball the pin cycles through the balls (stepping the Ball-Count-Unit) to "Game-Over".
Please write what situation You have by now --- especially about (Yes or no) "The pin cycles through the balls (stepping the Ball-Count-Unit) to 'Game-Over' ". Greetings Rolf

When the start button is pressed to begin a new game, everything resets except....after the advance unit counts down it should then go back to show a "free" 1000 points and the ball should then be kicked into the shooter lane. This is not occurring. It may cycle several times and then finally reset.

After it finally resets showing ball 1, I can hit several points then drain the ball. At this point, the machine tries to reset to ball 2 however it doesn't, it just continues trying and then goes to game over after cycling through each balls 2,3,4,and 5.

I've tried to figure out the reason why the advance unit isn't going back into the starting position. This must happen before a game can be played.

#11 5 years ago

Hi Sonora70
I live in Switzerland south of Germany - in Europe we are about 6,7,8,9 hours ahead of You --- it is like some kind of a "time gap" in our talking.

Thanks for post-10. I do not like the feature "every new ball starts with one bonus given" - it makes the pin more complicated. You mentioned a very important fact - ALSO at start-up, resetting and then kicking out the very first ball: This mentioned feature does NOT work correct.
My goal is to get to this "giving the very first ball and the feature works" --- then chances are big that we have fixed also the problem with stepping to ball-2, -3 etc.

My Space Mission also has this (not loved by me) feature "always one bonus given" --- I had a look --- we do NOT need the ball in the Outhole betweeen the flipperbats when we inspect / work on the problem "very first ball kicked out and one bonus given" --- Williams calls the kicker: "Ball Release Coil" and it kicks when we NOT have the ball in the Outhole.

Toggle-off the pin (Safety Reasons) - take the ball out - lift the playfield and secure it - manually put 7 or 8 bonus on the Bonus-Unit (Williams calls it Advance-Unit so I will use the word Advance-Unit) - toggle-on the pin - nothing happens. Start a new game and look at the playfield --- Bonus-Lights equals Advance-Unit-Lights - and also look at the Outhole between the flipperbats --- the following does happen in a fully running Star Pool.
You hear the Score-Motor run - rhythmically the Bonus is stepped down - a slight hesitation - the Advance Unit steps up to one bonus and immediately afterwards the Kicker (Ball Release Coil) fires ONCE then the Motor stops running.

Toggle-off the pin again - manually put 7 or 8 bonus on the Advance-Unit. Start a new game and this time look at steppers and relays --- in detail happens (also see the JPG):
"encircled red" stuff - the Advance-Unit is not in Position-Zero - the Reset-Relay pulls-in and stays steady pulling, this makes the Bonus-Relay pull-in and it stays steady pulling (by its marked rosa / pink switch) - the motor is made running and so rhythmically closes its switch IMP-5B - (through closed switch on pulling Bonus-Relay) the Advance-Unit-Reset-Coil fires (toc, toc toc ...) --- the Advance-Unit steps down and reaches Position-Zero - the "encircled red Switch on Advance-Unit" opens and so the Bonus-Relay quits pulling.
"encircled green" stuff - the Advance Unit steps down and reaches Position-Zero - the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch moves , the Bonus-Relay does not pull anymore - the "encircled green Switch on Bonus-Relay" is therefore closed --- The Outhole-Relay does pull-in (and establishes "lemon-green" Self-Hold-Current) - Outhole-Relay stays pulling.
"encircled brown" stuff - the motor is running , switches on Outhole-Relay are closed / moved - Motor-Switches-Long-Dwell-2A and -2B make the Drop-Down-Targets reset, Motor-Switch-3A makes the Advance-Unit step up to one bonus and Motor-Switch-4A makes the Kicker / Ball-Release actuate - the very first ball is kicked over to the Shooter Alley.
Then the Outhole-Relay quits pulling and the Motor stops.

Please check the description (written above) and Your pin's doing --- do You see some strange thing happening ? Greetings Rolf

0Star-Pool-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#12 5 years ago

Problem solved........last night I began looking again at exactly what was happening each time the ball drained. I noticed the outhole relay was pulling but not staying pulled long enough to complete the reset process. I then began "helping" the outhole relay close and the reset completed correctly. At this point I knew it was a timing issue usually related to a score motor switch. Using the new schematic (thanks again Rolf) I had printed I was able to follow the outhole relay path from C13 to C2 (per the schematic) and found that score motor switch 5B needed to be cleaned and adjusted.

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