(Topic ID: 328337)

Williams Space Mission - various issues

By ScottN

1 year ago


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  • 24 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by ScottN
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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SM1 (resized).jpg
SM score motor (resized).JPG
SM eject coils (resized).JPG
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SM shooter coils (resized).JPG

#1 1 year ago

Hello all! I, and especially my kids, would be extremely grateful for any tips & guidance to solve some ongoing issues with our Williams Space Mission pinball machine. The game has become unplayable due to a few issues that are likely all related.

The general theme of the issues is that often, but not always, when a ball enters either of the two side Kickout-Holes, or either of the two lower Kickers... it starts racking up points and never stops racking up points, and never ejects the ball. Kids get frustrated and turn off the unit.

I do have a copy of the schematic and instruction manual. I think I have the necessary tools and skills to fix, but I lack the confidence and knowledge. I'm hoping someone might be able to push me in the right direction. I don't know if this is possible, but I would be VERY open to paying for virtual help!!

Thank you!!

- Scott

#2 1 year ago

Hi Scott,

I think you might want to focus on this part of the schematic for the ball not ejecting problem. The green circuit turns on the Shooter Relay, and a switch on the Shooter Relay turns on Shooter Coils in the red circuit. I'm assuming that when the ball falls into either of the 2 lower holes, it must close a "Shooter Sw." and energize the Shooter Relay. The switches marked "Shooter Re." then close - one starts the score motor (not shown below), and another should fire the Shooter Coils when the Motor 4C switch closes.

In case you don't know, the switches inside ovals or circles are on the score motor.

SM shooter coils (resized).JPGSM shooter coils (resized).JPG

#3 1 year ago

Hi Scott, Welcome to pinside!!

If pressing the Credit button doesn't activate the Credit Unit Reset solenoid,
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#4 1 year ago

Ronnie from Joes Classic Video Games has a good series on Space Mission. Might not be a direct 1 to 1 fix but you’ll learn a lot about the machine from a maintenance point of view

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXBCNT6PGQNo1YaC0DakJTMfI7lauTTEX

Also this one:

#5 1 year ago

Hi all! Wow, I can't thank you for your efforts to educate a newbie. You guys are amazing. After some of the tips here, I have gotten further along, but am really stuck on one issue. When the ball goes into one of the bottom kick-out lanes (not sure of the proper term), it crosses over a wire 'switch', it adds some points to the score, then a solenoid "kicks" the ball out (great so far), but then the whole cycle repeats over and over, forever. i.e. it keeps adding points, and keeps trying to kick the ball out. Even when I turn off the machine, then turn it back on, and press Start, it will often immediately go into this phase of adding points, and kicking the ball out.

I feel like if I could truly tackle this problem, by really understanding the cause, and then fixing it, it will help me to learn how to handle other issues as they come up. But right now, I'm like a deer in the headlights. Help?

Schematic I'm using is here:
https://www.ipdb.org/files/2253/Williams_1976_Space_Mission_Schematic_Diagram_continuous_reproduction_multi_color.pdf

Thank you!!

- Scott

#6 1 year ago

Speaking generally, once a coil has been energized, and it needs to stay on for a while (for scoring purposes, usually), the coil will have a lock-in circuit that keeps it energized. The lock-in circuit will have, at minimum, a switch on the coil itself and a score motor switch that will open somewhere in the score motor cycle. Sometimes instead of a score motor switch, there is a switch on a stepper unit that opens when the stepper is at one end of its movement). It sounds like maybe that score motor or stepper switch isn't opening, which is keeping the coil energized.

I wasn't sure from your description whether you meant the 2 kickout holes that shoot the ball up to the moving target, or the drain hole at the very bottom. But there are several examples of that lock-in behavior in the snippet below:

SM eject coils (resized).JPGSM eject coils (resized).JPG

If you look at what happens to turn on and keep on the Shooter relay, for example. The ball must close one of the 2 the shooter switches when it falls into either kickout hole. When one of the shooter switches closes, it completes a circuit to the Shooter Relay, turning it on. The shooter relay has several switches on it labeled "Shooter Re." that are now opposite the state drawn on the schematic.

One is on the Shooter Relay itself and closes, keeping the relay energized because it's in series with a n/c Motor 5B switch (left side, mid height on the snippet). That's the lock-in circuit for that relay.

Another switch on the Shooter Relay causes the score motor to turn:

SM score motor (resized).JPGSM score motor (resized).JPG

Another switch on the Shooter Relay closes in the Shooter Coils circuit and turns on the Shooter Coils briefly when the Motor 4C switch temporarily closes. Motor 4C closes before Motor 5B, so after the Shooter Coils fire, the Motor 5B switch opens and relaxes the Shooter Relay.

In this example, if the Motor 5B switch didn't open, the Shooter Relay would just stay powered on, the score motor would continue to cycle, and the Shooter Coils would fire and keep trying to eject the ball every score motor cycle.

Nice redrawn schematic on the ipdb site! Wonder who did that?

#7 1 year ago

By the way, MarkG has some great resources about lots of pinball circuits and how they work at his site. This particular page has a section explaining lock-in circuits:

https://www.funwithpinball.com/learn/animated-basic-circuits

Animated circuits, videos and good explanations - worth your time to study!

#8 1 year ago

Thank you paulace ! I will analyze and decipher and see if I can get further with this! One quick note... regarding your question of where the problem lies, it is with "the 2 kickout holes that shoot the ball up to the moving target". More to come! Happy New Year!!

- Scott

#9 1 year ago

Well, it seems like two steps forward, one step back. After focusing on the Shooter Relays and Coils, now the current problem is... as soon as you turn on the machine and press the Start button, after doing the normal startup routine, it starts adding 1,000 points and advancing the bonus lights, until the machine is shut off. Of special note... the shooter coils and relays (for all 4 of the kickouts) are NOT firing. So, it's a similar but different problem.

Was hoping the machine might be playable tonight for New Year's Eve, but looks like we'll have to get our fun elsewhere.

- Scott

#10 1 year ago

Is the ball being kicked out? If not, check a Motor 4A switch that's in series with the Ball Release coil.

#11 1 year ago

Hi guys! Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been watching some of the videos you've suggested and really trying hard to analyze the schematic and understand how things get 'fired' and why. I'm still pretty stumped on the current problem and I'm sure it's due to my inability to truly understand the logic and follow the correct paths. I believe once I sort this problem out, I will likely get that "ah-ha" moment, and it will help me with troubleshooting other problems.

The current problem is this: Once the ball rolls over either of the "Shooter Switches", it pulses the 10 point score reel and a chime 5 times (so it adds 50 points), then it energizes the Shooter Coils to kick the ball out, then it keeps cycling through this same process over and over, until I have to turn the machine off.

I've inspected the Shooter Relay and the gaps and contacts look OK (to me). I've attempted to do some light cleaning on the Score Motor Relay 4 and 5 (but I admit it's a bit hard to get in there between the wheels). Nothing I've done so far changes anything.

I'd so appreciate a specific thing to do next!

- Scott

#12 1 year ago

When you say "rolls over" the shooter switches, do you mean when the ball falls into either right of left hole below the moving target? If so, it sounds like your Shooter Relay is locked on and not able to relax. If that's what's happening (and you should be able to see whether the Shooter Relay is staying on or not), then I'd check the 3 switches with arrows below.
SM1 (resized).jpgSM1 (resized).jpg

Switch contacts should be clean and move against each other slightly when the switch leafs close. If you rotate the score motor slowly by hand or move the relay armature, you should be able to see the contacts separate in one position, and close and move against each other slightly in the other position. Then check the back sides of the switches, where the wires are soldered on, to make sure there isn't a short or something.

#13 1 year ago

I think the schematic shows 2 score motor 5B switches for convenience, but there is only 1.

#14 1 year ago

Thanks, Dave....didn't know they did that.

#15 1 year ago

The outhole relay uses the same R-BR wire for it’s hold circuit.
Just after machine reset, and the outhole relay kicks the ball to the shooter lane, does the outhole relay stay energized keeping the score motor running at all or intermittently?

#16 1 year ago

Hi guys! I SO very much appreciate the help.

First, to confirm, YES, I am referring to "when the ball falls into either right of left hole below the moving target" (just on either side of the flippers). There are small wire switches (roll over switch) in front of the Shooters, and when the ball rolls over those small wire switches, it should add 50 points (or 500 points if lite is lit) and then the Shooter Coil should engage and shoot the ball towards the moving target. It does all that, but then adds another 50 points, then it tries to shoot the ball out, then it adds 50 points, then tries to shoot the ball out, over and over.

Per paulace suggestion, I have checked the Shooter relay again and everything looks good. During this "problem", the Shooter Relay is fully engaged, and all 4 connections on the relay look tight. The relay stays fully engaged during the entire problem, never disengaging.

On the schematic, Score Motor 5-B maps to "Eject Relay & Outhole ReLock" (R-BR to Y) and "Pulses Bonus Unit Reset" (O-W-1 to Y). Using an ohm meter, I measured R-BR to Y, and rotated the score motor manually. It works as expected. Good connection normally, and the connection is broken when the wheel turns and the 'needle' falls into the cog 'valley' (I need to brush up my pinball terminology!!). Idid the same with O-W-1 to Y, and it works the opposite of R-BR to Y, as it should. I looked for good connections on the back sides of the switches, and pulled slightly on the wires... everything appears snug, nice bright solder, no shorts (that I can see). I think my ohm meter test would have shown the short though.

Since it's also adding 50 points (pulsing the 10 point score wheel) and engaging the chimes, could there be something that is 'stuck'? I have no idea how you guys read these schematics and figure out the logic. I keep hoping the light will come on here.

- Scott

#17 1 year ago

There is a switch on the Shooter Re. that makes the score motor turn. There is another switch on the Shooter Re. that turns on the 10 pt relay through score motor Imp B which opens and closes 5 time every time the score motor makes 1/2 a turn. I'm assuming that the reason you keep scoring 50 pts and the score motor keeps turning is because your Shooter Relay is locked on. We're trying to figure out why that is happening.

I'm guessing that if you just push the armature of the Shooter Relay closed with your finger, the relay will stay activated and you'll just keep scoring 50 pts. If you pull the armature away to the relaxed position, it will stop. That shouldn't happen. The Shooter Relay should stay closed long enough for the score motor to complete 1/2 turn, score 50 pts, and then the Shooter relay should relax because:

- a motor switch 4C should close briefly, firing the shooter coils which kicks the ball out of the hole and opens the Shooter switch that the ball was just closing.
- shortly after that, the motor 5B switch that is holding the Shooter Relay on (its lock-in circuit) should open, relaxing the Shooter relay....stopping the score motor.

It sounds like the motor switch 4C is working, and the ball is kicking out, but the Shooter Relay is not relaxing. I think it's either one of the switches we've mentioned not opening, or there's some sort of short keeping the Shooter Relay energized.

pinballdaveh asked a good question in his last post. Do you know the answer to that?

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Just after machine reset, and the outhole relay kicks the ball to the shooter lane, does the outhole relay stay energized keeping the score motor running at all or intermittently?

YES, I have noticed this also! Intermittently, something DOES keep the score motor running after the initial machine reset!

#19 1 year ago

With the score motor service switch set to off, manually turn the cams until cam 5 drops it’s switches. Momentarily push the playfield switch engaging the shooter relay. Does the shooter relay pulse and stay energized or does it release right away? Repeat procedure while lifting up on the 5B switch stack. At what point does the shooter relay release when lowering the switch stack?

#20 1 year ago

Thanks for the idea, @pinballdaveh. I was excited to try this out, but didn't get very far. Pressing the rollover 'shooter switch', does not do anything at all, no matter if cam 5 has the switches high or low. I did press some other rollover switches (like when the ball enters the playfield at the top) to make sure the game is in play mode and it immediately pulled in some relay, as I could hear loud humming. I was a bit worried I'd burn out something by leaving it in that state, so I turned off the machine.

If you think I'm doing this test wrong, I would be glad to take a quick video and post it, if you think that would be helpful!

- Scott

1 week later
#21 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Nice redrawn schematic on the ipdb site! I wonder who did that?

paulace Awesome job on the redrawn schematics!!! They look incredible and are so much better that the originals (pdf and print). Would it be too much trouble to ask for Space Odyssey - can't be too much different lol.

#22 1 year ago

Hey there woz - you know, I actually didn't do that one. I don't know who did, but they did a nice job of it. If I do Space Odyssey, I'll make sure you get a copy...well, since the Williams machines don't have copyright issues, I'd post it publicly anyway.

#23 1 year ago

Thanks for the added info ScottN.
If the shooter relay isn’t pulling in at all, check score motor index cam switch D make/break switch with wires yellow and R-B.
Clean and check switch for strong connection when index cam is in a home position.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Thanks for the added info ScottN.
If the shooter relay isn’t pulling in at all, check score motor index cam switch D make/break switch with wires yellow and R-B.
Clean and check switch for strong connection when index cam is in a home position.

To clarify: Shooter Relay pulls in tight and doesn't ever let go, when the score motor service switch set to ON (and the shooter switch is temporarily depressed). But when the score motor service switch set to OFF, then it does not pull in, even with the shooter switch depressed. (I do not know if it should or not)

Anyway, to continue the troubleshooting tips, I have cleaned Index Switch D, and confirmed with an Ohm meter (on the soldered wires), between Red/Black and Yellow, that there is no connection until the cam drops into the home groove, at which time there is a solid connection (no resistance). I turned the game on, and the same problem exists... as soon as the shooter switch is depressed, the game goes into a cycle of giving 50 points, kicking out the ball, giving 50 points, kicking out the ball, etc. Shooter relay stays pulled in/engaged.

At this point, I think I have to waive the white flag. Time to find a professional (slim pickins in our area). Thank you all for taking time to try to help me!

- Scott

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