(Topic ID: 156086)

Williams space mission tilt problem


By ksmmspt

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 22 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by rolf_martin_062
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Hello, I'm helping out a friend who's selling me his space mission. Got a problem where the tilt relay is being activated when the ball rolls over the center switch at the top of the play field. Any ideas on what he should check? Thanks. Can't wait to get my first EM!

#2 3 years ago

Hi ksmmspt
please write about "every time / sometimes yes - sometimes no / by making the very first points" - at exactly what situation(s) does the Tilt-Relay starts pulling ?

I look at the ipdb-schema - I see something strange*** - as it is wired it does not exactly match with Your problem. To completely match I need detailled information from You / and maybe a preowner has done some work in the wiring ?

On Later games like "Grand Prix" Williams made some very strange "Tilt-activating Features" - people are guessing - people do simply cut a wire to "take out this strange wiring / behaving".

I own a Space Mission and I have looked in the schematic many times - BUT: Your question made me have a closer look -> that (Grand Prix) strange*** wiring is also in Space Mission.

Want to do some test ? -> here: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406 on the right, below the red Horse-Shoe-Lane there is a 10-Point-Switch behind a rubber.
Start a game -> Reset is done -> Ball is kicked into the Shooter-Alley -> MANUALLY activate this 10-Point-Switch -> the Player gets 10 points. NOW (after these 10 points) try the mysterious Center-Lane (Text: Extraball when lit) -> do You still get that mysterious Tilt ?
Look in the ipdb-manual, page-26 (ori-24) -> Ball-Index-Relay -> Switch-F (outmost switch): Sneak-in a stripe of paper (insulation) in-between the two contact-points of this Normally-Closed Switch. Then try again.

And look in the ipdb-schema -> between Number-14 and Number-15, Sections C, D, E You see the Coil on Tilt-Relay and some switches -> see "Spinner-Lane-Roll-Over-Switch" and "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" ? The "strange***" wiring as in "Grand Prix" ...

My "problem" is - http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406 -> way up on the left, text "Advance Bonus" - THIS is the Spinner-Lane-Roll-Over-Switch (and Your problem is on "Center-Lane-Switch").
Anyway, please do these tests and report. Greetings Rolf

#3 3 years ago

Will do and thanks Rolf. I'll post back soon.

2 weeks later
#4 3 years ago

Rolf, we found a leaf switch that was grounding out causing the weird behavior. My new problem is the bonus does not score on the reels once the ball drains. The lights countdown like they are supposed to but the score reels do not move. The double bonus does work properly though. Thanks for any help you can offer.

Scott

#5 3 years ago

This is usually an easy fix, I am just trying to remember what it is. Are all playfield switches scoring correctly? Take off the glass and test all scoring switches. You may have a stuck switch somewhere on the playfield.

#6 3 years ago

Hi Scott
good find - tricky leaf switch grounding ...
at end of ball - Double-Bonus Yes - Single-Bonus No: Great, ipdb has schema and manual: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2253 - Bonus are worth 1000 points - the adding to the Score-Reels is done by the score-motor turning and tock,tock ... pulsing the 1000-Point-Relay. -> List of relays in the schema at B-16/17 says: relay is shown at -> E-22 -> Impulse-Wheel-Switch-D pulses, the ball was in play (so the Ball-Index-Relay is still pulling), Bonus-Relay is activated (brain-of-pin: please count down the Bonus-Ladder) -> a Make-and-Brake-Switch*** on Double-Bonus-Relay - Probably the cause: When spending "Double-Bonus" - then connection is good - when spending "Single-Bonus" the (other) connection is no good. Lets look in -> manual-page-28 (ori-26) -> Double-Bonus-Relay -> Switch-C -> when the relay is NOT pulling: IS THERE connection "wire-Orange-Black, middle blade" <-> "wire-Grey-Brown, other blade" ? contact-points clean ? wire-Grey-Brown TRUELY soldered-on ? (Grab this wire and gently pull a bit).

M+B-Switch***: right now I do not understand - the Score-Motor-Switch 2A-Long-Dwell is NOT pulsed, hmm, well, (?).
I have found at schema-13-C,D,E some more stuff related with "Bonus-Count-Down". We might have to dig-in there at 13-C,D,E (?) ---first: Please check "Switch C at Double-Bonus-Relay". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Another strange thing: SCM-2A-Long-Dwell -> http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair -> Score-Motors -> http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Williams_Score_Motors -> Williams Vertical Cam -> picture -> http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:WilliamsScoreMotorTopView.jpg -> "Long Dwell" does NOT !!! mean:"mounted further forward". The dictionnary says "Dwell" is somewhat like "stay for a (longer) while" - strange - maybe I have to dig-in into "collecting single-bonus" <-> "collecting double-bonus" ...

#7 3 years ago

Not familiar with this game, but there may be an end of stroke switch on your bonus unit that needs to be cleaned and adjusted. On some games, as the bonus steps down it hits the EOS switch that sends the signal to the score reel.

#8 3 years ago

Thanks everyone. Will post back results.

1 month later
#9 3 years ago

Hi, I am having similiar issues with my Space Odyssey. The spinner lane advance bonus rollover is causing a tilt. I insulated switch F on the ball-index-relay as suggested by Rolf and it stopped. If I remove the paper insulator it tilts. Also the game stays on the same ball except when draining after tilt, then it will advance to the next ball or the next player. Maybe it is awarding an extra ball every time. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Joe

#10 3 years ago

Hi Joe
the keywords to Your problems are: Your Ball-Index-Relay is not steady, constantly pulling when You have made the first points (10 or 100 or 1000) --- making some points must activate the Ball-Index-Relay -> relay pulls -> must close its "Self-Hold-Switch" -> relay stays pulling.

Look here: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=26326 -> on the righthand-side -> behind chimes -> behind transformer -> a long row of relays -> the first relay has TWO coils mounted on the relay (it is the Game-Over-Relay, INTERLOCK-Type of relays) -> the second relay is the "Ball-Index-Relay"-> Start a game (relay is not pulling) -> -> -> ball is kicked-over to the Shooter-Alley (not pulling) -> You launch the ball (not pulling) ->ball makes some points -> question: Do You have AAA: NO action on Ball-Index-Relay - or do You have BBB: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in but immediately afterwards let go - or do You have CCC: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and keeps-on pulling ?

I believe You either have AAA or BBB -> try: Activate the pendulum-tilt -> DDD: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in AND STAYS PULLING or EEE: NO action on Ball-Index-Relay. Write about AAA/BBB/CCC/DDD/EEE, greetings Rolf

#11 3 years ago

Thanks Rolf - I will check these after work tonight and let you know - Joe

#12 3 years ago

Hi Rolf,
AAA and DDD

Thanks - Joe

#13 3 years ago

Hi Joe
You have AAA and DDD - I was hoping for BBB and DDD.
Actually: I wonder how You get the points to the Score-Drums "when loosing a ball -> Bonus-Ladder is counted down" - a "Switch closed by pulling Ball-Index-Relay" let current flow to the Score-Drums at that time.
Look here: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2253 -> manual -> page-26 (ori-24) -> Switch-D ...

Our problem is "Ball-Index-Relay does NOT "pull-in and stay pulling" when the ball makes some points. (((When You bang a (pendulum) Tilt -> the pulling Tilt-Relay makes (among other stuff): Ball-Index-Relay pulling)))

Please do the following and then report: Toggle-OFF the pin (Safety Reasons) - Look behind the chimes -> behind transformer -> the "Game-Over-Relay having two coils mounted" -> then Ball-Index-Relay -> gently push the anchor-plate (armature) towards the Backbox (away from player) and let go. Not much travel but You should feel the pressure and You should feel the travel of the armature - back and forth.
Practice this a couple of times - TRY to ONLY touch the armature.

NOW -> toggle-on the pin -> start a game -> pin resets and delivers Player-1-ball-1 -> NOW do press onto that anchor-plate - DO ONLY touch the armature - and half a second later let go -> question: FFF: Ball-Index-Relay stays pulling OR: GGG: Ball-Index does NOT pull ?

I would like to have FFF because (manual-page-26) then would be functioning "Switch-A on Ball-Index-Relay" - "faulty would be ONLY 'primary/initial current does not flow'".
When You have GGG: 'primary/initial current does not flow' AND Self-Hold-Switch-A on the relay is no good / has no connection.
Please tell me about FFF or GGG. Greetings Rolf

#14 3 years ago

Hi Rolf
looks like GGG
Joe

#15 3 years ago

Hi Joe
I like to work in MS-Paint on JPG's - I show a snippet of (ipdb) schema. All Relays are mounted the same way: Transformer-Powerside -> -> here the wire R-Y-W -> Coil on Relay -> wires and switches -> wire YELLOW -> Transformer-Return-Side (the well known Transformer-Lug-YELLOW).

"Marked green" works in Your pin: You bang a tilt -> Tilt-Relay pulls-in (establishes Self-Hold-Corrent) -> through (encircled green) "longtime-closed" Switch on Tilt-Relay -> Ball-Index-Relay also pulls and pulls (our DDD) -> the pin can do the stepping to next player / next ball.

"Marked-orange" is our test for "EEE or FFF ?" -> You pressed the armature on Ball-Index-Relay - the moved armature activates some switches - it should close its "Self-Hold-Switch, Switch-A on the Relay, encircled-orange-1" ->
FFF would / does show: There IS connection through the wires AND the (encircled-orange-2) Make-and-Brake-Switch on Outhole-Relay. At the time when You PLAY a given Ball - at this time the Outhole-Relay "does not pull / should not pull" - "encircled-orange-2 is as shown in the snippet".
GGG shows: NO connection -> I want to have a closer look at "encircled-orange-2".

When we have fixed it (You press anchor-plate on Ball-Index-Relay and let go -> Ball-Index-Relay pulls and keeeps-on pulling (FFF) - when we have fixed this -> we will have a look at "Initial current shall flow (my "marked-red" stuff.

To do some work on "marked-orange" -> http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2253/Williams_1976_Space_Mission_Instruction_Manual_Jan_1976_no_schematics.pdf -> page-27 (ori-25) -> Outhole-Relay -> Switch-C - when Relay is NOT pulling: There must be a good connection "Middle-Blade-Yellow Outer-Blade-Green-Black". Please check this switch - also look for "when the pin idles after reset is done -> Outhole-Relay shall NOT keep-on pulling".

An information from schema: "Due to wire shortages beyond our control, some wire colors may be other than indicated on wiring diagram" - so: Look for the SWITCH - color of wires soldered-on might be other than indicated in the schema ...

Want to investigate on "Initial currrent shall flow to Coil on Ball-Index-Relay (my "red" stuff)" ?
-> manual-page-25 -> Extraball-Relay -> Switch-B.
-> manual-page-23 -> lower right corner of the unit -> "encircled 1". IF (if) You have the "Lights indicate the position of the Unit" -> "3 grounded wipers" means: most likely the wiper HAS connection to -> -> transformer-lug-YELLOW.
(((I do not like the term "grounded wiper" - I would prefer "wiper has connection to transformer-lug-YELLOW")))
Greetings Rolf

0SpMi-Ball-Index-Relay-1_(resized).jpg

#16 3 years ago

Thanks Rolf - I'll work on it this weekend and let you know next week - Joe

5 months later
#17 3 years ago

I searched for my problem here and found this thread. I figured I would add to is as I am having the same issues. Plunge ball and center roll over causes Tilt. Further investigation finds that L & R top targets and spinner lane switches cause the same issue. Once points are scored this issue doesn't happen.

I found that if I close switch A on the advance relay (before any points are scored the machine will tilt)

I believe this is because it is advancing the bonus before any points are scored. I looked at Post 10 and to answer Rolf's questions I was finding CCC: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and keeps-on pulling. On a new ball I trigger pendulum tilt and get DDD: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling.

If I insulate switch F on the ball-index-relay the tilting does not happen.

I have been staring at these schematics for a while and the switches in the machine seem Ok. Any one know where else to look? Also what is the point of switch F on the ball-index relay? Why would connecting the spinner lane rollover switch to the tilt be necessary?

#18 3 years ago

Hi QietEarp
I wonder If You struggle with the "(Williams) unique tilt rollover", see "Notes" here: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1251 - and clicking on the text brings You to here: http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#Tilt_Rollover , the "List of games" is not complete: http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?ft=tilt.rollover&sortby=date&searchtype=advanced --- SPACE MISSION ALSO has this feature ...
See the JPG (I made from ipdb-Space-Mission-schematics).

Your "If I insulate Switch-F on Ball-Index-Relay (as shown in ipdb-manual at page-26 (ori-24)) the tilting does not happen" --- this is a GOOD solution - as nowaddays WE OWN the pins - and WE do not try to cheat on the pin. MAKE an documentation for You / ladder owner, greetings Rolf

aSp-Mi-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#19 3 years ago

Thanks Rolf,

It is weird that the center lane (and other targets [ L & R top targets and spinner lane switch]) now cause the tilt. This happened suddenly, so I am wondering what changed. If I can't find this soon I may just insulate that switch.

I edited this post to remove words that were confusing.

#20 3 years ago

Hi QietEarp
I am (Swiss) German speaking --- Your "targets cause the tilt to go off", hmm AAA: targets make the pin 'tilted' (when they shouldn't) --- BBB: As You have banged a tilt - the targets make the Tilt 'no longer active' - means You can play-on instead of beeing punished by the tilt ?
Its 30 minutes after midnight - I will read (?) Your clarification by tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#21 3 years ago

There is a tilt switch on the rollover switch at the spinner lane.
When ball index is not energized and contact closes the game will be tilted.
Maybe a stuck switch?
You can disable the function by opening the n.c. contact on index, block F. (last one on the contact block)

#22 3 years ago

Hi QuietEarp
thanks for the clarification. "To own and to fix pins" I started in 2007 - STILL I do not understand all the wirings / switches. My main goal is to have a pin fully running - IF (if, if) "insulating Switch-F on the Ball-Index-Relay" makes Your pin "fully running": I would do this --- AND I would put THERE a paper tag TELLING "HOW and WHY" - for You and an "maybe latter owner of the pin".

When we encounter "strange, mysterious, weird" behaviour - its logical that the questions are asked: "Happens always / quite often / sometimes / rare", "happens ONLY in this place / happens here and there". The "sometimes" and the "here and there" are the tough problems - how to isolate / how to produce so we can troubleshoot ? I usually think of an "broken-off (off a solder-lug) wire - but (little gremlins) - wires are stiff and stay in place (sometimes) / sometimes due to shaking the pin a bit: The broken-off end moves a bit to the side (no connection). Because of this: Whenever I inspect a switch: I carefully grab each wire and gently pull a bit - TRUELY soldered-on ?

Your weird problem: From the schematics I can say: "Yes, the Rollover-Button in the Spinner-Lane was made to give a tilt under specific conditions". AND IF (if) the "Switch-F on Ball-Index-Relay is adjusted tight (almost no gap when relay is pulling) --- OK, I can imagine some shaking on the pin and the "adjusted tight switch" may cause an tilt --- BUT STILL: ONLY when the Spinner-Lane switch is involved - NOT: Other switches.
Well, I can go further in "doin fantasies": The Spinner-Lane-Switch is a RARE 3 bladed MAKE-AND-MAKE switch - the top-most blade is moved - gets in contact with middle blade - now BOTH blades are moved and finally they get in contact with bottom-most blade - ALL three blades have contact --- and (doing fantasies) the gaps when switch is open - the gaps are almost closed: shaking the pin when the ball is OTHER place - little gremlins: the Spinner-Lane-Switch faulty closes (doe to shaking the pin) the topmost and middle blades --- TILT ...

Tilt-Switches adjusted tight ? The "Ball-Roll-Tilt" gets faulty activated ?
The schematics tells me: NO OTHER switch can cause a tilt. Greetings Rolf

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