Space Mission
Williams, 1976have a williams space mission
during reset all score reels go to zero but the player 1 and 2 reset switch and the player 3 and 4 reset switch keeps firing ,is this a problem in the 0 switches on a few score reels ,i plan on going thru them anyway just wondered if this is a good place to start
thanks for your help
When you say reset switches do you mean the score reel reset relays located in the head?
If so then they will pulse during the duration of the reset sequence. It can be that all score reels reach zero before the bonus unit is fully reset. In that case the 1-2 and 3-4 score reel reset relays will continue to pulse even though the reels are zeroed out, until the machine is fully reset and the ball is served into the shooting lane.
Do you mean the score reel reset relays pulse during a game? If so then a switch on the Reset Relay (Mounted inside the body on the relay board) is stuck closed. That switch effects many circuits so your game play will be messed up in so many ways.
Again, if your 1-2 and 3-4 reel reset relays are pulsing during game play then it can also be the circuits controlling the Reset relay located in the cabinet. You can view this reset animation to find how that circuit works:
Quoted from jdapolito:is this a problem in the 0 switches on a few score reels
Could be, but very unlikely that all 16 would not work at the same time. Assuming you are talking about the zero position SW on 16 score reels.
Maybe you should tell us which reels are passing zero on reset. You can make a video and put it on you tube than link here.
when i turn on the game it ;lights up properly ,i hit the play,or credit button it goes into reset and the score reels will go to zero but the player one and two reset switch and the player 3 and 4 reset switch in the head continue to fire ,score reel for the 1000's on player 2 continues to roll and the reel for 10's on player one continues to roll intermittantly.the game never completes reset .the ball doesn't get kicked out into the shooting lane The stepper units wheels move freely.the bonus unit does reset. i cleaned and looked at the switches in the base they seemed ok . thanks again for your help
Quoted from jdapolito:score reel for the 1000's on player 2 continues to roll and the reel for 10's on player one continues to roll intermittantly.
Its fighting reset with those↑↑↑reels.
Start with a Clean/Check ▬ Gap your Zero break switching.
Quoted from jdapolito:just the ones that keep moving
1000 p. 2 + 10 p. 1 sound like the culprits you pointed out on an earlier post.
First thing i would do is tighten all the contact stacks ,starting with the screw closest to the the reel then the other. Also check & give the wires that terminate at the stacks , give them a tug to see if any are sketchy.Any that are weak looking give them a re-solder.
Then manually trigger the score reels that work proper to see how they operate and give the contacts a look at what state they should be in/at to understand what you need them to be.
I always give all the score reels a look over and if the are dirty they get a cleaning and gap adjustment if needed. 
I believe there is a animation video of a score reel with contact state/action.
Quoted from jdapolito:And it could be any of the reels right not just the ones that keep moving
Only the reels that don't stop at zero. Every reel has a Zero SW.
On reset, the Reset RE will stay energised till all 16 reels are at zero. The scr motor rotates and fire the reel step up coils till the reel zero SW opens and break that part of the circuit. Once all 16 reels are at zero and all 16 zero SW are open, than the Reset RE can de energise.
If one of them does not open, then that reel does not know when it is at zero. Thats the SW that needs re - gapping.
Great animation Steve. I tried to watch your YouTube above. The music you used contravenes copyright so it will not play for me. Just like tele in the olden days after midnight, just get snow.
ok i reset the gaps on the reels that kept going
they now go to zero
also found a wire off that went to thestack of switches on another score reel
also found a wire off the bonus relay that allows it to reset resoldered it too.
hit the credit button and same thing ,the player 1&2 and player 3&4 reset switches continue to fire .
could it be another score reel ,or a different circuit .
i dont know if this matters but when i hit the credit button and it begins to reset the 1 ball in play lites up too ,but the number of players light does not ,but i dont think this lites till reset is complete
thanks again for all the great help!
I have included a bit of the schematic below. The coloured lines are for each players 10 point reel, it’s the same for all other reels. The Reset RE energise the 1-2Reset RE and 3-4 Reset RE. If the zero sw is closed the reel set up coil will fire. There is nothing else. So you need the 1-2 Reset RE energised and the Zero SW closed to make the reel operate during reset.
Maybe the problem is not actually with the resetting of the reels.
Can you check and see if either 1-2 Reset RE or the 3-4 Reset RE is energised when the reels keeps passing zero, you will need to wait till all reels have got to or pasted zero at least one. Obviously the 1-2 Reset RE is associated with player one and two. If player one is not stopping at zero then check the 1-2 Reset RE.
Can you use a DMM ?
ok ill check the reset relay and clean up the other score reels they are dirty anyway
but now when i push the credit button the reset begins all score reels do reset to zero and then they do all stop at zero,but the score motor cont to turn and the player 1 and 2 reset relays and the player 3 and 4 reset relays cont to fire
thanks again
ok in the cabinet
the reset relay switch stays on ,if i manually release it it stays released and i can play a game until all 5 balls are played then its game over .i push the credit button and scores reset but the score motor keeps running as do the player 1,2 and 3,4 keeps firing in the back head until i manually free the reset switch in the cabinet
a couple other things seems no matter how many times i pushthe credit button its a 4 player game
also after each player play a ball most of the time play stays on the fourth player.
and the ball count does not always advance
all the wheels in the stepper units are free and spring back fully it seems when released .
also i may be missing a spring from the player unit in the back head of the machine there was one laying back there ,i dont have a manual for this one
thanks for any advice
Quoted from jdapolito:,i dont have a manual for this one
Here is one. Seeing its game specific will help you with understanding its operation.
http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=space+mission&sortby=name&search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick#2253
No schematic though.
Quoted from jdapolito:a couple other things seems no matter how many times i pushthe credit button its a 4 player game
also after each player play a ball most of the time play stays on the fourth player.
Looks like the coin unit stepper needs attention.
More explanation on that ▬▬► http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm ▬▬► Section 2D
jdapolito:
You can see in the schematic below that the score reel 1-2 and 3-4 reset relays will always be pulsing so long as the machine is trying to reset, that is normal:
The question is "Why isn't the main Reset relay dropping off"?
The schematic can be a bit misleading with how the score reels are wired. Below is a more accurate representation of a few that fit on that graphic. You can see that every "Drum Unit Zero pos Break" switch is in parallel with every other "Drum Unit Zero pos Break" score reel switch.
It means if any one of those score reel switches remain closed when the reel is at zero, a path is kept made to the Reset relay... and so the reset sequence can't ever finish:
You can also see another path to keep the main reset relay ON. That is through the Bonus relay:
At this point, my game troubleshooting can take a couple paths. Is it a score reel switch issue or a Bonus relay issue? I see the Reset relay can also be kept on by a stuck score motor index cam switch.
Since it is **easier and faster** to observe the Bonus relay (Rather than go through every score reel switch), I will start the game reset and see if the Bonus relay goes OFF when the Bonus unit reaches its zero position.
The Outhole relay will also come on during the reset cycle, and it's important that it go back off so I'll observe it also going back off.
If the Bonus relay -does not- go off then...
The bonus relay has to go off somehow so we look how the bonus relay is held ON. So first thing I do is find the Bonus relay coil on the schematic. Once located I can see that there's a "Bonus unit open at 0 pos" switch and we know is closed (Bonus unit is not at zero), and the circuit flows through the reset relay switch:
In the above diagram, we can see that once the bonus unit reaches zero then the bonus relay is released which will allow the reset sequence to continue.
Once the bonus reaches zero then a few other things happen to finish reset.
See the diagram below.
(Red line) The Outhole relay goes on through the score motor INDEX cam and the Bonus unit zero pos sw. The Outhole relay is held on by its own switch through a score motor cam (not shown)
That first cause the (Blue line) Bonus Unit to step up to the 1,000 bonus position through a score motor impulse.
Since the Bonus unit is no longer at zero, it changes the state of the switch circled in green. This will allow the Outhole relay to drop off at the end of the score motor cycle.
A moment after the Bonus unit steps up, the ball is released to the shooting lane (Green line) through a score motor pulse.
Dropping off the Outhole relay is very important because it will allow the Score motor to find its next home position and stop:
Here we see why an energized or "stuck" Outhole relay can keep the score motor running, preventing the machine from completing its reset sequence:
Outhole relay switch to score motor ckt
If you start the game reset sequence and notice the Bonus relay -does- go off then check the Bonus relay and Outhole relay for a switch stuck closed. Also check the score motor index cam switches. They are the stack closest to the motor itself.
Make sure the Outhole relay goes back off during the reset cycle. If the outhole relay remains on then check the Bonus Unit zero position switches.
If those two relays check good along with the Bonus unit zero position switches then go over every "Drum Unit Zero pos Break" score reel switch again and make sure they are all open.
Quoted from Chrisbee:Great animation Steve. I tried to watch your YouTube above. The music you used contravenes copyright so it will not play for me. Just like tele in the olden days after midnight, just get snow.
Sorry Chris.
I can upload the file to Deposit files if you wish to see it. Just let me know.
Thanks Steve, that would be good. Your Vids are worth a watch.
jdapolito issue is a bit odd.
If all Zero SW are open then it would not matter which REs were staying on, the drums would not advance after zero position. Maybe it only appears to be a reset issue.
Maybe there is a stuck PF SW and the Player unit is not function correctly, for example.
I was hoping for an answer about this below to help direct us.
Quoted from Chrisbee:Can you check and see if either 1-2 Reset RE or the 3-4 Reset RE is energised when the reels keeps passing zero, you will need to wait till all reels have got to or pasted zero at least one.
Hi Chrisbee.
I am probably mistaken but I understood his current trouble was that all reels reset to zero and stop but the score motor continues to cycle until he manually forces the main reset relay off, indicating the initial rest sequence is not completing somewhere.
If that's correct then I suggest he gets the game to reset properly first before tackling his ad-a-player issue.
Thanks for the interest in my video, I have it already uploaded to DepositFiles for the Pacific Pinball museum some months ago. Its just a matter of finding my login and link.
thanks for the above .your description of how the sequence works and how to see it in the schematic is terrific ,like understanding schematics and pinball reset sequence for dummies ,very appropriate in this case
your right the reels do reset to zero now and stop but the reset sequence continues.
i will check all the above hopefully when i get home tonight ,unless other duties pop up.
last nite while fooling around with it ,cleaning the coin stepper ,the wheel was moving a little slow and didnt always completely reset ,as was the player unit in the back the game did work for a short while resetting and releasing the reset relay on its own .
also the ball count unit i think the spring on the wheel may have been wound once too many times the selenoid fires but it doesn't always advance the wheel completely.
So thanks for all the help
and patience with me, i'll check this stuff out and get back to you
have a great day
Quoted from SteveFury:I understood his current trouble was that all reels reset to zero and stop but the score motor continues to cycle
I think you are correct, here!
Quoted from jdapolito:ball count unit i think the spring on the wheel may have been wound once too many times the selenoid fires but it doesn't always advance the wheel completely.
Normally about 3 turns on the centre spring, but I suspect that it is just sticky from old grease. The two pawls that contact the ratchet need to be spotless. They move at lighting speed when operated by the coils.
ok took a look last nite
the bonus relay reseases does not look like any switches are stuck
the outhole relay is not latched on at all until i manually release the reset switch then it latches then releases and the game is ready
so is this the zero switch on bonus unit ,or cam switch D ,and just for clarification which is the zero switch on bonus is it the rivit on zero position ,and is cam switch D on the first cam nearest the motor too.
thanks for you patience again
I've got a Space Mission that just came in for repair yesterday and it has a reset problem too. It will have to wait because I've already got a machine in line first to repair, a Bally "Special Forces" which must be repaired before November 12th.
I think I am going to look at the reset rely again.from what I read in the reset sequence a switch in the reset relay energizes the out hole. Relay.does this makes sense? Anyway I know the machine will work because I was fooling around with it the othernite and it did reset properly for a short while.
the reset relay seems fine
the bonus relay releases
the zero swithes on all score reels are open and gapped,i'm not sure how much of a gap is required but they are all open when at zero.
still the outhole relay never latches during the reset unless i manually release the reset relay
now when i do this at least it counts the balls in play and the players rotate from 1 to 4 and back to one again with each ball, and the number of players corresponds to the number of times i push the credit button.
score motor problem on index cam?
i need to know are any of the swithces on the index cam closed thruout the sequence ,
and can this only be a problem on the index cam no other cams?,and this is the first cam on the motor side ?
Hi jdapolito.
We can see on the schematic (previous post) the Outhole relay is turned on through 3 closed switches.
(1) An Index score motor switch. This cam is closest to the motor, and it opens as the score motor just begins to turn.
(2) The Bonus unit zero position switch
(3) A switch on the Bonus relay
The score motor switch:
Index cam.PNG
How it works:
When the Bonus unit reaches zero and the Bonus relay goes off, the score motor switch briefly closes at the start of its next cycle to briefly pulse the Outhole relay.
Having only a brief pulse, the Outhole relay must be kept on for most of the cycle so it can allow the rest to continue.
The circuit below shows this. When the Outhole relay is pulsed, a switch on the same relay goes closed. That Outhole relay switch is connected to Score Motor cam 5 which keeps the relay ON for most of the cycle:
i will look into the game over relay again
i was going to look into the score motor again ,on the #5 cam switch ,but i was thinking if when i manually release the reset switch ,and THEN the outhole switch pulses closed then reopens and the game is ready ,doesnt that mean the switch on cam 5 is working and doing its job ? or am I just really confused
also how do i check the bonus unit zero position switch ,or where is it located ? on the bonus switch ,on the bonus stepper,
thanks again
Bonus unit is mounted under the playfield all the way in the back on the left side. It must step down properly. Check for missing or loose screws particularly on the two solonoid mounts.
You will be able to see the large ratchet wheel on the bonus unit. There's a post sticking out of the ratchet wheel near its rim.
That post changes the state of the zero position switches when it reaches zero position.
ok that is what i was checking .so the bonus zero switch are the blades that must close when the bonus wheel is all the way back to zero . i will double check
and what about the facxt that the outhole relay closes then opens after i release the reset switch would this indicate that the switch on cam 5 is working properly or not ,thanks again
Quoted from SteveFury:There's a post sticking out of the ratchet wheel near its rim.
That post changes the state of the zero position switches when it reaches zero position.
when i first got the game a yellow or tanish clothe covered wire was disconnected in the vicinity of the bonus relay zero switch. there are are three tabs on this switch with wires soldered to them ,the lowest tab it would be closest to the cabinet ,or farthest from the playfield surface had one wire of the same yellow or tannish color soldered to it ,the next tab had 2 red cloth covered wires on it and the last tab ,which would be the one closest to the playfield also has a yellow or tannish clothe covered wire on it,
i soldered this wire to the tab closest to the cabinet that had one other wire of the same color on it ,this then allowed the bonus relay to reset ,
i compared it to another williams game i have ,,i know its a confusing description any way if you could post a picture of your zero switch so i can compare i'd appreciate it ,i think its right.
can someone that has a space mission post a picture of the wires going to the zero switch stacks ,when i got the machine a "dirty" yellow wire was off ,i resoldered it to where it looked like it went on the switch stack,the bonus relay goes back to zero during reset ,but the machine still wont complete reset ,i just want to make sure its not because a put the wire back in the wrong place.thanks
Going by the Schematic SteveFury post #30 and looking at the orientation the same way the bonus stack is i uploaded post #36 above.
It should be as follows:
From top contact to bottom contact.
Starting @ Top uppermost.
1st White
2nd ↑↓1-3 are the M&B contacts Red /Black
3rd Green
4th Grey /Green
5th Yellow
Bottom
It should follow like that. If not then a comparison to another SM machine may be needed if they had substituted wires. I do not have a Space Mission pin to compare to but schematics are usually good enough.
Note that my own SM had the same resetting issue when I first turned it on.
I had discovered the bonus unit was not advancing on its own from zero position to the 1,000 bonus position. The step up solonoid would kick and kick but it wasn't advancing the stepper cog wheel.
Why? The solenoid mounting face was missing a screw and the existing one was almost fallen out.
I could reach in and advance the bonus cog wheel to the 1,000 bonus point position and the reset completed. Fixing the bonus unit solenoid mount was pretty much straight forward. Also, all solenoid sleeves in the machine was replaced during the following rebfurb.
i will look at this too thanks
i think my wiring is right
and when i release the reset relay then the bonus does advance to 1000 ,and the outhole kicks on and off
and the game is ready
i think the index cam switches are ok i checked those
is there a way to jump the wires and check the zero switch another way to see if a wire is broke ?
or i guess ican do this with an ammeter as long as i know where the wires go
i think its probably something simple i am just not seeing
SUCCESS!!!Iwent back to where the problems all began and re gapped all the score reels again.even though the reels were all stopped at zero several gaps were open but very close on the zero switch position .opened the gap up a little more and that did it thanks for all the great help!!Its a great machine to play ,a lot of fun ,especially when its working (so far).
I've started on the Space Mission that came in last week for repair. It had a reset problem too. Traced it to two bad zero switches on player one score reels, one bad zero switch on player two score reels, and one bad zero switch on player four score reels. Also found the coin unit stepper gummed up and not spinning back to home position.
Have found several other problems too: a blue jumper wire broken off of the tilt relay that needed to be soldered back on and the score motor running slow & erratic.
By the way, the Space Mission manual that is out there to download, has a critical missing page. Page 23 is missing from the scan. It covers the 5 Cent Relay, 10 Cent Relay, Extra Ball Relay, and Tilt Relay.
Quoted from tommycrum:Yes kenlayton I did notice there was not a "tilt relay" on the one I have. Do you have a copy of that page I can print ?
Thanks
tommycrum
Nope, sorry I don't. I just mentioned it because I noticed there was an important page missing from that manual scan. I hope somebody can scan that missing page and get it inserted with the existing downloads. I could use that page 23 myself.
Quoted from jdapolito:I think its interesting that the score reel zero switch can be open enough to stop the score reel.but not quite enough to release the reset switch and allow reset to complete
This will not be the case.
In a sense, an EM machine is pure “Digital”, all SW only have 3 states, On – Off or Broken.
First, I’ve not been to this thread for a while, but reading last part. (hope I’m not just repeating what other have said)
The Reset RE is energised via the Coin RE and the Game over RE (GO RE) in the first instance. The GO RE would have been tripped, either cos you finished a game or you turned on the machine.
The Coin RE will energise by either a coin or pressing the replay button. With the coin Re energised and the GO RE tripped, then there is a closed circuit for the Reset RE to energise.
Once the Reset RE is energised, it is held though its own hold SW and one of the following SWs.
The 16 score reel zero SW
The Bonus RE
And a SW on the SCR Motor.
If all the score reels have stopped at zero, then the 16 zero SWs are not the problem.
Yes you can have the reels all at zero and still have the Reset RE energised, but its not though the 16 zero SWS
Check the Bonus RE is DE energised and the SW with Yellow and Blue/Brown wire is open.
Check the SW on the Scr Motor fourth SW up on the Impulse cam. This is a make/break SW, Wire colours are Yellow and Blue/brown
Check that the GO RE, latches and the SW with Orange/red and Blue/white wires is open.
While the Reset RE is energised, You can stick a pieces of paper between the above SWs to see if the RE de energises.
Can you please take a photo of the Rest RE and post here.
Quoted from KenLayton:I hope somebody can scan that missing page and get it inserted with the existing downloads. I could use that page 23 myself.
Looks like i have the same copy. 
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