(Topic ID: 172055)

Williams Space Mission no ball advance at 2,3 bonus

By mfoam

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

I'm new to the forum and have little experience with pins. I went through the forums to get some leads but I just cant solve this on my own. I pick up a Space Mission went through everything mechanical and have all working but the following problem:

1 player
50 point tripped , 1000 bonus -> outhole switch - all is fine
Advance bonus tripped(targets or lanes) , 2000 bonus -> ball index relay ->outhole switch-> bonus relay (result) player advance, no ball step up
or
Advance bonus tripped , 3000 bonus -> ball index relay ->outhole switch-> bonus relay (result) - no player advance , no ball step up
then
Bonus 4000 and above - all is fine.

For 1000 bonus I realize the bonus unit(zero pos) trips the outhole relay before the score motor (1A) allows the ball count unit step up

For 2000 bonus the outhole relay is not tripped when (1A) allows the ball count unit step up but is tripped when (2A) allows for player unit step up

For 3000 bonus the outhole relay is not tripped when (1A) or (2A) allow

For 4000 and up the score motor moves over 180 degrees and all is well.

Please help with some understanding
Thank you

#2 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
hmm, Your description is not clear to me. I wonder if You do some "special tests not happening in an ordinary game". I do not know if You are familiar with the "logic of play", I do not know about the "history of" Your pin.

Did You buy the pin recently ?
Did it ever "funtioned / work" in Your possession ?
What did the seller told You ?
Did he try to fix and after a while gave up ?
Is the Space Mission Your first pin ?
Did You ever played a functionning Space Mission ?

Do You know the functionality of the "Bonus-Ladder" - You start a 1-player-game***, Score-Reels are resetted - IF (if) there are Bonus on the ladder left (rare - game before has ended abnormal): Bonus-Ladder is stepped down to Zero Bonus.
Well, as the reset comes to an end - You are given ONE Bonus (for free) on the Bonus-Ladder and the ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley.
Take the ball OUT - see my JPG - by hand actuate an "L", an "K", an "P" and about 7 times the "G" so the bonus-Ladder does step up to "8 or 9 bonus shown". Put the ball in the Outhole (between thr flipper-bats and watch: The pin SHOULD step down (visible on the Bonus-Lights on the playfield) the Bonus-Ladder to "Zero Bonus" - THEN the Outhole-Relay should pull-in, Score-Motor runs, steppin to ball-2, Bonus stepped-up to "1" and ball-2 kicked over.

I must know: Does the Bonus-Ladder steps down to Zero after loosing a ball ? With Your answers I then can dig into the ipdb-schematics and ipdb-manual: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2253 , greetings Rolf
P.S. --- 1-player-game***: To keep it simple I would like to handle (for quite a while) ONLY One-player-games, here we see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=35522 (bottom right) "1 can play" - do You see this on Your pin (after start-up) ? In the ipdb-picture I see "third ball in play" on the "bottom to the left" --- You should see "first ball in play" - do You see "first ball in play" ?

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#3 7 years ago

Thank you Rolf for taking the time to help.
I did buy this recently.
Owner said he could never get around to fixing. His garage looked as though he tinkered.
I have played a space odyssey, and wanted one.

I some understanding of the schematic and whats happening. So Ill try to explain keeping in mind 1 player.

The bonus unit works great - always steps down and zero switch activates outhole relay.

The progression you described puts the bonus unit reset pulses above 3 which always gives a normal play:
(ball step up, 1000 free bonus, outhole kicker) the same goes for when 1000 free bonus showing and just a 50pt swtich hit

The issue is when the bonus unit is at 2000 then outhole switch(lost ball) the result is player step up with no ball advance.

Also:

When bonus unit is at 3000 then outhole switch the result is only no ball advance.

What baffles me is, from the schematic my understanding says thats the way it should be, so I know I must be missing something.

In the schematic at position C6 ( sorry I dont know how to display) Outhole re,Extra Ball re and Ball Index re allow flow to occur to score motor cam point 1A and 2A

When 2000 bonus display steps down, 1A is open(no ball advance) by the time 0 pos on bonus unit(outhole relay) is hit but 2A is closed allowing player unit step up.

When 3000 bonus display steps down, 1A is open(no ball advance) by the time 0 pos on bonus unit(outhole relay) is hit and 2A is open- giving no player step up. So when 3000 bonus then outhole switch-> same ball( play forever)

I just dont grasp the higher rotations of the cams and whats happening yet. I am only guessing that one of the three relays should or shouldn't allow the flow at the moment they are.( outhole , extra ball , ball index) I hope I was clear enough.

#4 7 years ago

I just reread your reply and yes, 1 can play is lit, and 1st ball in play does display. When 1 can play is lit and 2000 bonus is displayed then outhole switch ->Player advances

#5 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
nice, the pin shows "1 can play". Please do what "I do":

I toggle-off the pin and unplug the 110VAC power cord (Safety Reasons). I start to lift the playfield - 15 degrees, 30 degrees - I pull the playfield about 10 inches towards me, lift 45, 60, 90, 120 degrees and I lean the upper end of the playfield against the Backbox. This is a bit whacky - be careful. I stand a bit to the right and look to the left,look to the back. Hanging down on the let-side of the playfield I see the Bonus-Unit and I see the mechanism that tells the brain of the pin about the Bonus on the Bonus-Ladder. I do move the Unit a bit - I do some stepping - I step-up using the Step-Up-Coil-PLUNGER moving upwards and let go, I step down using the Step-Down-Coil-PLUNGER moving sideways to the right and let go. I step a bit and look how the horizontal rod (I marked it with three red dots) moves clockwise (I am stepping up) or the horizontal rod moves counterclockwise (I am stepping down). The picture shows "5 bonus on the Unit".

Step down and carefully look - when stepping down from "One Bonus" to "Zero Bonus": The rod (red) moves the "blue" and also the "white Nylon-Spacer, marked grey" and therefore the "middle blade on the three-bladed switch". So "green" and "blue" disconnect --- and on the three "black" blades: The middle blade looses contact to "left" - then gains contact to the "right". (((This is done when stepping from "ONE" down to "ZERO".
DOES Your pin do this moving of the blades when stepping ? In the end step up to about 8 Bonus.

Now comes a test: Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - the pin should immediately step-down the Bonus-Ladder to ZERO - THEN AFTER reaching Position-ZERO: Outhole-Relay is allowed to pull-in. Do this test STARING at the Outhole-Relay - You easily HEAR the stepping down of the Bonus-Unit BUT YOU STARE at the Outhole-Relay.

So do the test several times -
"starting with 8 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 7 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 6 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 5 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 4 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 3 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 2 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 1 bonus on the ladder" -
"starting with 0 bonus on the ladder" - hard to say - I believe "my Space Mission" does not try to step down from Zero to Zero.
Question: Is the Outhole-Relay nice and friendly and ALWAYS pulls-in AFTER the stepping down of the Bonus-Ladder is COMPLETELY done ? Greetings Rolf

aSpMi-Bonus-Unit-Work (resized).jpgaSpMi-Bonus-Unit-Work (resized).jpg

#6 7 years ago

Thank you Rolf, I will be at the machine in the morning. I did discover the position of the playing field your referring to after 50 hrs of diagnostics . I will go through your suggestion thoroughly then, thank you. When I noticed the pin(red) looking no more than 1/8" away from the reed(blue) at 5 bonus units, I am almost certain mine would be farther away at the point of 5 bonus, but I will check.

#7 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
I live in Europe --- You and I - we have some sort of "time gap" means I am ahead around 8 hours in time to the USA.

Do not think too much about 1/8" or such (((I had to hold the camera to the right to take the picture as my pin is on a wall (I cannot stand on the right side of the pin). The question is the stepping down from Pos-ONE to Pos-ZERO --- do the two moved blade really move ? - also in stepping from Pos-ZERO up to Pos-ONE (do they move ?)

When MANUALLY stepping up and down and up and down - Please try: In Pos-ZERO the "green and blue" switch is WIDE open - I easily can sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the CONTACTPOINTS OF THE TWO BLADES. I then step-up to Position-ONE - "Green and blue" CLOSES and REALLY GRAB the stripe of paper - I cannot simply, gently pull-out the stripe of paper --- means In Pos-ONE, 2,3,4 ... the Switch IS DEFINITELY CLOSED .

As You are at these switches: Look out for broken-off wire(s) - gently grab every "soldered-on wire" and pull a bit - question: TRUELY soldered-on ? Greetings Rolf

#8 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
Went through the sequence. Manually, points were operating as designed from 1 to 0 and from 0 to 1. The outhole-relay activates every time. I place this pic of the unit to show my 5 bonus position. I dont have a history with this machine. It looks clean as far as original wiring, old looking solder joints( which seem solid so far). Just dont know whats been done to it.

Ill try to explain what I did next to try and help:

Player 1
Hit target ,2000 bonus displayed
Unplugged score motor, hit outhole switch.
Manually turned turned cams
Pulse 1- chime then bonus reset (1000 now displayed) Position 1 on bonus unit
Turning ... cam 1 allows A to ball step up BUT no outhole relay yet because we are at pos 1 on bonus unit, so no ball step up
Pulse 2 occurs- chime then bonus reset (no lights-zero now displayed) now we are at 0 position on bonus, so outhole relay activates
Turning ... cam 2 allows A to player step up and it switches to Player 2

All this occurs in less than 60 degrees of rotation.
When operating normally, 1000, 2000, 3000 bonus, score motor rotates only 180 degrees, 4000 goes to 360

Hope that helps

Bonus Unit (resized).JPGBonus Unit (resized).JPG

#9 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
my main interest is "at what moment on the time-axis does the Outhole-Relay pull-in". And then - when we have the "Outhole-Relay pulling-in correct": THEN I want to look at the problem "related with Bonus-Unit-Position".

"Ground, reasoning, explanation": You are right with the Score-Motor-Switches SCM-1A (my red 1) and SCM-2A (my red 2) - they do handle "eventually stepping "my red 5, 7, 8".
During a game the Score-Motor turns MANY times (at start-up, resetting, giving 500 points, bonus count down, stepping to next ball or player etc.) so BY EVERY TURN of the Score-Motor ALL Switches on the Score-Motor are actuated (MANY times). EVERY feature calling for help "Score-Motor do a turn for me" - EVERY feature HAS a SWITCH CLOSING "NOW I do accept the stuff the Score-Motor does by actuating ALL its switches" --- and when a feature is not active: SWITCH is open.

See the JPG: "red 1 and red 2" are actuated (when pin does reset the Score-Drums,when the pin gives 500 points etc.) --- NEEDED are "red 1 and red 2": when the pin WANTS to do stepping to next ball / next player. The point on the time-axis (when the pin wants to do this) is CONTROLLED by "my red A": The pin says - OK I have stepped down the bonus-ladder - I am now ready to do the stepping "Ball / Player" - I MAKE the OUTHOLE-RELAY pull-in (the Outhole-Relay calls for help of the Score-Motor) - NOW "red 1 and 2" are welcome - lets do the stepping.

I first want to learn from You: Does the Outhole-Relay pull-in AFTER the Bonus-Ladder has stepped down to ZERO --- the Outhole-Relay is NOT ALLOWED to pull-in when the stepping on the Bonus-Ladder has not ended by reaching Position-Zero.
The easiest way to check (Outhole-Relay pulling-in AFTER bonus-stepping down ?) I have written at the end of post-5, greetings Rolf

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#10 7 years ago

Thanks Rolf,
Yes, it pulls in ONLY from step 1 to 0 no matter how many are on the ladder.

#11 7 years ago

When only 1 bonus, impulse steps bonus unit reset(pos 0, A is tripped) in time to welcome (your red 1 and 2). Well, red 1 closes first, ball step up occurs and EOS switch on ball count unit pulls player reset relay(no player step up when your red 2 closes) but:

When 2 bonus, impulse steps bonus unit reset(pos 1, A not tripped) not welcoming your red 1 and 2, but red 1 closes and doesn't welcome
a ball step up. Then we get another impulse which steps bonus unit reset(pos 0, A is tripped) and now welcomes red 2 in a few degrees of rotation and player step up results

#12 7 years ago

red 1 is open by the time red 2 closes

#13 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
my text I have written NOT knowing about post-11, post-12. You do make descriptions on "stepping to next ball / (next player)" - still: By now I am ONLY interested in "Outhole-Relay pulls in AT WHAT point in time on the time axis".

Hi mfoam
great - it works in the "Start-up / Reset-Cycle".

I did some testing in my Space Mission. The activation of the "Ball-Index-Relay" is wired strange - many times I wondered about the result of a test --- only to find out (after a while - after re-checking) that the Ball-Index-Relay was not activated - arghh.

I have taken two pictures from "ipdb - Space Mission" and put together in an JPG -
Look at the JPG, lower half. First is the transformer, then the Game-Over-Relay, then the Ball-Index-Relay. Start a game - pin does reset ... comes to idle / stop --- by now the Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling.
With a finger press the armature (anchor-plate) of the Ball-Index-Relay and take the finger away - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST stay pulling - does it in Your pin ?

Look at the JPG, upper half. You press with an finger and close the Outhole-Switch (You simulate: Ball is lost and enters the Outhole).
I refer to JPG, post-2 --- "My G-Target" does advance the Bonus ladder.

I now ask You to do testing "starting with 8" - then with 7 - then 6,5,4,3,2,1 so:

Start a game - after reset is done: ACTIVATE the Ball-Index-Relay (do not forget to actuate it) - the Ball-Index-Relay stays pulling, fine.
Now with "my G-Target" step the Bonus-Ladder to 8 bonus --- then activate the Outhole-Switch, listen to the "stepping-down-sound of Bonus-Unit" and WATCH the Outhole-Relay - it is allowed to pull-in AFTER the Bonus has stepped down to Zero.

OK, same test starting with 7 bonus (DO NOT FORGET to activate the Ball-Index-Relay) - (You can simply use ball-2 of the test-game You have just started for test-8).
OK, same test starting with 6 bonus ().
OK, same test starting with 5 bonus ().
OK, same test starting with 4 bonus ().
OK, same test starting with 3 bonus ().
OK, same test starting with 2 bonus ().
OK, same test starting with 1 bonus ().

My assumption is: Around 5,4,3 bonus You say: Pin acts different. And the information "test starting with ?????? bonus" is important - and important is: WHAT is different (I have the feeling the Outhole-Relay pulls-in TOO early - but You must verify this theses), greetings Rolf

P.S.: Never forget to activate the Ball-Index-Relay ...

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#14 7 years ago

I think were getting closer......

The ball index relay does stay in. It seems it pulls everytime the first point is scored at the beginning of each ball. If no point on that ball then outhole kicker replays ball. Ball index was always activated for the tests

The outhole relay always pulls after the bonus unit steps to zero even with the following test results (its not pulling early):

9 bonus - ball advance
8 - no ball advance
7 - no ball advance
6 - ball advance
5 - ball advance
4 - ball advance
3- no ball advance
2- no ball advance, player step up
1 ball advance

#15 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
thanks for testing. Later in my writing You will see why I ask You: Please do testing several times so You can tell "ALWAYS happens this way" versus ""SOMETIMES it happens this way" versus "it NEVER occurs".
Please do several times "testing 9" You write ball advances - well, always or sometimes ?
Please do several times "testing 8" You write no advance - well, never or sometimes ?
Please do several times "testing 7" You write no advance - well, never or sometimes ?
Please do several times "testing 6" You write ball advances - well, always or sometimes ?
(((pardon me - I am hoping that You have forgotten to activate the Ball-Index-Relay ...)))

We come to the "non pleasing miracle" - see JPG, post-9: The pin says "the stepping down the bonus-ladder" is finished - I do the "stepping on Ball-Count-Unit - I do step to next ball" - the pin activates the Outhole-Relay --- the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and lets the Score-Motor turn - see JPG:
"A" is closed, "B" is closed (You have not made an Extraball), "C" is closed (You manually DID IT close) - the Score-Motor runs and closes SCM-1A - a shot of electricity is fired around the Player-Unit (red 3, beeing in Position-Zero means for player-1), well around it and then through "Coin-Unit" (red 4, beeing in Position-Zero means it is an ONE-Player-Game) - to "Ball Count Unit Step-Up Coil (red 5).
(((Shortly afterwards a second shot is fired ... SCM-2A through (not on the JPG: The Player-Reset-Relay, red 6 is made pulling) - so the second shot reaches "Player-Unit Reset Coil (red 8, useless but done: The Player-Unit steps from position-ZERO to Position-ZERO, yes Zero to Zero))).

mfoam - see my problem ? ALL this (above written) IS DONE WITHOUT the Bonus-Ladder / Bonus-Unit ...

So I write it again - pardon me - I am hoping that You have forgotten to activate the Ball-Index-Relay ..., greetings Rolf

#16 7 years ago

Thanks Rolf,
and YES ball index is pulled on all tests, so it looks like 7 and 8 give the same as 2 and 3 - makes sense because they are 180 degrees out on the cams. I tried each 5 times:

9 bonus - ball advance, same player
8 - no ball advance
7 - no ball advance, player step up (I must not have looked at the player up earlier)
6 - ball advance, same player
5 - ball advance, same player
4 - ball advance, same player
3- no ball advance
2- no ball advance, player step up
1 ball advance, same player

Oh and Rolf, I didn't forget

#17 7 years ago

oh and the results were all: ALWAYS

#18 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
on the horizon I see my Waterloo coming.
I had some theorys - the first was "the Switches (and the rod actuating them) on the Bonus-Unit were way out of order - stepping down does activate the Outhole-Relay much too early" - wacky theory and You proved the theory wrong ... "maybe the Ball-Index-Relay does not pull in so there is no stepping on Ball-Count-Unit" - wacky , proved wrong ... in the end I was hoping for an wire broken-off a solder-lug - staying in place, making connection - sometimes - then a bit of shaking the pin, vibration - the broken-off wire moves away - NO connection and so on - well, post-16 and post-17: ALWAYS - always on well-defined stages - reproducable - "theory of broken-off wire" is proven wrong.

I asked several times and You answered always: FIRST the pin does stepping down the Bonus-Unit - THEN (after reaching Position-Zero) THEN the Outhole-Relay pulls-in.
There is no "memory" in the pin - regardless from what starting-position: The Bonus-Unit is stepped down to ZERO - THEN the Outhole-Relay pulls-in - NO memory - well, the rest is a non pleasing miracle.

If You are loaded with energy: It would be interesting to learn: "starting with 8" - what result (we know it) - then "starting with 9" we know the result - then starting with 10, then 11, then 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Then looking at Your list of results - (((Is there a pattern of 'adding 5' like 2,3 plus 5 give 7,8 producing the same error and again adding 5 ...))).

I admit, I start looking for "work-arounds" to have: "mfoam can play a 1-player-game by sometimes using an added push-button (doorbell-type)" (((and later 2,3,4 player games))). Good are "9,6,5,4,1", See in Your pin: First is the transformer, then the Game-Over-Relay, then the Ball-Index-Relay, then the Outhole-RELAY.
Please try on (faulty) 2,3,7,8 - after the fault has happen: Manually activate the Ball-Index-Relay, then manually activate the Outhole-RELAY - does the pin NOW steps the Ball-Count-Unit ?

More thoughts "out of wacky theorys": Is it better when You manually CLOSE the Outhole-Switch until the Outhole-Kicker FIRES ? /// How is it when You have the playfield down and really play ?

When I have no more ideas - I then no longer can write posts. Sure with an added switch (doorbell-type) we can make the Ball-Count-Unit to step up (JUST the Ball-Count-Unit) --- sure with an added switch we can make the Player-Unit step-up --- sure with an added switch we can make the Player-Unit step down.
Write if You want to do such "work-arounds" - otherwise You may write a post: "topic is closed - error was not found" --- and some days / weeks later: You start a new topic - hoping for better help, greetings Rolf

#19 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
I am trying not to face my Waterloo - another idea: Maybe, maybe the Score-Motor-Switch-SCM-Ind-D, the part to OPEN when the Motor makes a turn: This "part to open" does NOT open (((so instead of completing a Score-Motor-Turn - THEN allowing the Outhole-Relay to pull-in, instead of doing so: The faulty-always closed SCM-Ind-D-part makes the Outhole-Relay pull-in "almost at the end of a Score-motor-turn" ...

Please have a look at SCM-Ind-D - may unplug the Motor and slowly turn the Motor by hand, greetings Rolf

aSp-Mi-Work-04 (resized).jpgaSp-Mi-Work-04 (resized).jpg

#20 7 years ago

Thank you Rolf , I'll check it . Give me about 12 hrs

#21 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
I took some time and tried to come up with some way or language that may help solve my problem.I am focusing on just 4 score motor cams that I have attached a drawing.

This is what works:
Position 1 is position of cams after outhole eject
Position 2 is where points were scored with no bonus advance(1000 bonus), so at position 2, outhole relay is pulled because zero position of bonus unit
Position 3 is where SCM-1A steps up the ball count unit because the outhole relay pulled in at Position 2
All is well.....

What doesn't work- bonus 2000 then outhole:
Position 1 - (same)
Position 2 is where bonus unit stepped down to 1000 ( no outhole relay yet)
Position 3 is where SCM -1A tries to step up ball count unit but cant because no outhole relay( bonus unit not at zero)
Position 4 outhole relay is pulled because zero position of bonus unit, but now SCM-1A is open so no ball advance
Position 5 outhole relay is pulled because zero position of bonus unit in position 4 and SCM-1A is open so no ball advance, BUT SCM 2A is closed so we get a player advance.
RESULT OF 2000 bonus: no ball index, player advance

What doesn't work- bonus 3000 then outhole:
Position 1 - (same)
Position 2 is where bonus unit stepped down to 2000 ( no outhole relay yet)
Position 3 is where SCM -1A tries to step up ball count unit but cant because no outhole relay( bonus unit not at zero)
Position 4 is where bonus unit stepped down to 1000 ( no outhole relay yet) but now SCM-1A is open so no ball advance
Position 5 SCM-2A is closed but no player advance because of no outhole relay(bonus unit no at zero)
RESULT of 3000 bonus: no ball index

My questions( just a couple):
What circuit allows ball step up after 30 degrees of rotation(after pos 3)
What circuits should keep the player from advancing in less than 60 degrees of rotation(before pos 5)?

pin-Model (resized).jpgpin-Model (resized).jpg

#22 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
thanks for post-21. In a post to come I will write to "text / drawing". My situation is a bit "uncomfortable" - I have a theory --- BEFORE writing about my theory and Your post-21: I ask You to do a test.

See the JPG, post-5, the Switches on Bonus-Unit - my three (standing upright) black dashes - the Make-and-Brake-Switch. Toggle-off the pin, manually step to 3 bonus so the switchblades in Your pin are exactly "as drawn in the JPG". Take a stripe of paper and sneak in in-between the OPEN part of the 3-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch --- in-between the contact-points of the two blades involved (in the drawing: Outmost right). Manually step down to Zero - that part closes and grabs / holds the stripe of paper.

Toggle-on, start a game, reset is done, pin comes to idle. NOW manually activate the Ball-Index-Relay (don't forget this --- the relay MUST be constantly pulling). Make exactly EIGHT bonus on the Bonus-Ladder (((8 bonus is faulty in Your pin, I want 8 bonus on the ladder))). Tip-on / close the Outhole-Switch.

MY PIN is doing: Nicely stepping down the Bonus-Ladder - finally reaching Position-Zero - AND NOW everything stops --- I grab the stripe of paper and I pull it OUT of the switch - MY PIN activates the Outhole-Relay, Score-Motor runs, pin steps to next ball. Question: In YOUR pin ?
IF (if, if) Your pin does the same as my pin does: Want to try this testing with 9,8,7,5,6,4,3,2,1 Bonus "for starting a test" - NEVER forget to manually activate the Ball-Index-Relay (((Space Mission has a strange / crummy wiring for to activate the Ball-Index-Relay --- for EVERY test we want the Ball-Index-Relay steady pulling))).

IF (if, if) YOUR pin nicely do step in every test (9,8,7, ...) to next ball (no faulty stepping): I'd feel comfortable and I'd gladly "write to 'my theory' / 'Your post-21, text and drawing' ". See my "uncomfortable situation" ?
To end this post: A funny "saying in german": "An solution I had --- but it did not match with the problem ...". (((I want to avoid "long writing on a theory 'not matching with the problem' ", greetings Rolf

#23 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
I am impressed and anxious to read your theory. All tests moved to next ball, with no player advance every time I removed the paper. So it must be timing somehow?????? Thank you!!!!

#24 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
may I take Your post-23 as "IF (if, if) mfoam would sneak-in the stripe of paper on EVERY new Ball, playing the ball, making points and bonus, loosing the ball - pin counts down the Bonus-Ladder - THEN mfoam pulls-out the stripe of paper --- pin does stepping on ball / player --- and again and again ..." - well, IF (if, if): "mfoam could play his Space Mission". May I take Your post-23 this way ?

And to make life a bit easyer: "mfoam would let the stripe of paper in the switch - always, permanent, forever --- and he adds a Jumper-wiring with an doorbell-type pushbutton (mounted on the front of the pin) --- instead of pulling-out the stripe of paper: mfoam presses the pushbutton" - a not very pleasing "workaround". In a post to come: Lets try to FIX the fault.

Here I try to explain the fault. SS-pins have an CPU and a memory - about a 1000 times per second the CPU checks "What information comes in --- what action / reaction must I (CPU) do" --- and when about 3 to 5 informations come in per second: for us human beeings it looks as if the pin handles the stuff PARALLEL.
EM-pins do not have CPU and memory --- all they have is the Score-Motor to help doing a well-defined set of action(s). EVERY feature calling for help by the Score-Motor MUST wait until the "feature before" has come to an complete end - OR the pin simply ignores the second call.

With the JPG I try to show: INSTEAD of waiting for the "END of stepping down the Bonus-Ladder, end of a Score-Motor turn" and THEN calling for help to do "stepping on ball / stepping on player / kicking-out the ball" --- instead of waiting: The Outhole-Relay pulls-in - catches the last part done by the turning Score-Motor (activating all switches) - BUT the "Switch for stepping the Ball-Count-Unit" has been closed and opened again BEFORE the Outhole-Relay pulled-in.

In post to come (fixing) I will show "why and how is the 'pulling-in of Outhole-Relay TOO early' existant, greetings Rolf
P.S.: Do not nail me down on my drawing - we would need a high-speed camera to get the EXACT degrees on sequence chart "when happens what".

000-Sequence-Chart-Save (resized).jpg000-Sequence-Chart-Save (resized).jpg

#25 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
here I describe what happens in a fully running Space Mission. You play the first ball in a 1-player-game, You play good, make many points and 17 bonus, You then loose the ball, the ball rolls slowly to the Outhole - Score-Motor does not turn.
We get to JPG, "A" - the ball enters the Outhole and closes the OutholeSwitch. Due to 17 bonus: Both switches on the Bonus-Unit are moved --- current can flow to the "Coil on Bonus-Relay (better name would be: Bonus-SCORE-Relay)". We are getting to "B" - the pulling Bonus-Relay makes the Score-Motor run, the pulling Bonus-Relay closes its "Self-Hold-Switch" (, the pulling Bonus-Relay opens another switch), "dark-green-line": Bonus-Relay stays pulling, the turning Score-Motor throws Switch SCM-Ind-D - we do not care about. State "B" persists for quite a while --- the pulling Bonus-Relay makes the Score-Motor turn and turn and turn - through switches on turning Score-Motor the Bonus-Unit is rhythmically stepped down (we are in state "B") Bonus 16, 15, 14, ... 4, 3, 2, 1 Bonus - when stepping One-Bonus down to Zero-Bonus we get into state "C" - Switches on Bonus-Unit are moved - one switch opens and cuts the feeding line to "Coil on Bonus-Relay". The Bonus-Relay quits pulling and therefore moves its switches. NOW - as the Score-Motor is not yet at end of a turn (the M&B-Switch-Ind-D is "as drawn green"): Everything comes to a halt - ONLY the Score-Motor keeps-on running, does 3 empty pulses and by turning --- at last reaches Home-Position - we come to state "D" - NOW" the Outhole-Relay can pull-in - this makes the Score-Motor to turn again - we have state "E" --- the Outhole-Relay stays pulling through my "violet line" - and the the stepping on the ball, kicking out will take place.

I believe: You have an fault on Score-Motor-Index-Switch-D - look at JPG in post-19. Do not only check where the blades touch (closed) and open --- ALSO look at the other side where the wires are soldered-on onto the switchblades - a blade THERE is bent ? A drop of solder has fallen THERE ? I believe: the "part to open" does not truely open, greetings Rolf

aSp-Mi-Work-05 (resized).jpgaSp-Mi-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#26 7 years ago

Thank you Rolf,
I haven't had a chance to really think about the outcome of the last test. I am very grateful for the time you have spent on my condition. I would not be at peace if I installed a switch to mimic the paper- "I gots to know why". Its a matter of learning an EM machine- reading schematics, understanding mechanics, current flow, etc. I am going to take some time in the next couple of days and apply what I discovered to the analysis. If you have the answer, please give me a couple of days before you post.

#27 7 years ago

Oh no , now I "GOTS" to look

#28 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
I used an ohm meter, made sure blade on bonus unit was open(R-B). Touched solder point on R-B at bonus unit the other to yellow on transformer -> 0 ohms with IND-D closed, 10 ohms when open. Please correct me if I should have a different approach.

#29 7 years ago

Hi Rolf,
Some good news and some bad. When I looked at the contacts and solder on IND-D, I observed no shorts or stuck contacts. I did however pull on R-B sure of a good connection at D and bonus unit. I didnt run the machine after testing continuity for the previous post.
Couple hours later, I hit the target, unplugged SM, manually turned through 2 pulses of Impulse and no outhole relay.....Hmmmm.
I turned the machine off, plugged in the SM and played the machine----> its working! I just dont like not knowing why. I am going to play around with it in the next couple of days.

#30 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
The following text I have written "not knowing about post-29"

Hi mfoam
several subjects
- I am not used to use DMMs , Continuity-Testers Ohm-Meters - I do have a simple Multimeter for DC and AC Voltage, -Amperes and Ohms - I hardly use it - in an EM-pin there are many wires, switches --- AND: we always can "measure around through the wire-windings on the transformer. To get an 100% result: We must / should / who does it ? UNSOLDER at least one side - THEN do measuring. So I do testing using Jumper-Wires (for guaranteed connection) and using stripes of paper (guaranteed NO connection) - and of course I inspect solder-lugs for bent blade HERE, drops of solder fallen HERE wires truely soldered-on HERE.
- the results You show in post-28 say: When the switch should be closed (logic of play) You HAVE connection, when the switch should be closed () You measure 10 Ohms - this MIGHT be measuring "all around through wiring on coil(s) on transformer --- well, what now ?
- I looked at the Score-Motor in my Space Mission - I can lift the side where "real motor is mounted" - I had acces to SCM-Ind-D-Solder-Lug-Blade-color-red-black - I clipped-on a Jumper-Wire and did take the other end to transformer-Lug-Yellow.
I then made the tests 7 / 8 / 9 and got the IDENTICAL results You reported in post-16 --- this means I can create YOUR mysterious fault in MY pin (making SCM-IND-D faulty by putting an Jumper-Wire) - this means: STILL I believe "faulty SCM-IND-D-Switch", greetings Rolf

#31 7 years ago

Hi mfoam
I do not see the bad news in post-29 - maybe You'd have to explain - but I read GOOD NEWS:
By now "mfoam has an Space Mission FULLY running" - this would mean: You can write an last post somewhat like "a mystery has happend - my pin runs" AND mark the topic as "solved".

Maybe, maybe "You fumbling on SCM-IND-D" made the blade-color-red-black BENT just a tiny bit - BUT enough so the Switch NOW is good. Who knows - I do not mind to "gladly accept nice mysteries" --- play and enjoy - IF (if) the fault shows up again: You know where to look at - and of course: pinside.com is a good place to start a new topic. Greetings Rolf

#32 7 years ago

Thanks Rolf,
I now see how reading(meter) through can cause an some confusion. You are right, the bonus relay didn't drop out after the second pulse (bonus 2000, bonus unit at 0 pos) and now it does. Thank you with your help towards a greater understanding. And yes, if it does occur again, I am certain I can fix it. Next time I'm in Germany, ill have to treat you to some Spatzle or Bratwurst. You have save me a tremendous amount of time!

#33 7 years ago

Well, it came back. I discovered one of the R-B at the bonus unit was loose- green circle. By soldering , the problem existed all the time. So followed to eject , shooter switches, and this is what I found. Red wire soldered from R-B on switch to yellow on light ...Wow! Its really over!
Thank you for getting me there Rolf!

Wire (resized).jpgWire (resized).jpg

IMG_2286 (resized).JPGIMG_2286 (resized).JPG

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