(Topic ID: 190001)

Williams Space Mission - End of turn bonus issue

By WhiskeyTango

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

I recently brought home a Space Mission and its having an odd issue.

Here is a bullet-point list.
-Two-player game
-Bonus is being added at the end of Player 1's ball
-Stops adding the points to player one and starts adding them to player 2.

I have a few other pins in the house, but they're not EMs. Given this, I'm reaching out to the community for guidance.

Thanks!

IMG_3664 (resized).JPGIMG_3664 (resized).JPG

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

-Two-player game
-Bonus is being added at the end of Player 1's ball
-Stops adding the points to player one and starts adding them to player 2.

If you're saying that the some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 1 and then some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 2, does the Player unit move when the change happens from adding to Player 1 to adding to Player 2?

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If you're saying that the some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 1 and then some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 2, does the Player unit move when the change happens from adding to Player 1 to adding to Player 2?

I'm trying to figure out a good way to view this. Should I pull the playfield and try to run it next to the machine?

#4 6 years ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

I'm trying to figure out a good way to view this. Should I pull the playfield and try to run it next to the machine?

I'm trying to understand the symptom you're reporting.

#5 6 years ago

That's wild. I also wonder if the player unit is advancing prematurely. You can prop the playfield up and run a game while viewing the internals. I think the player unit may be in the head though.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'm trying to understand the symptom you're reporting.

The symptom is as you summarized.

Quoted from HowardR:

some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 1 and then some of Player 1's bonus gets added to Player 2

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from polyacanthus:

That's wild. I also wonder if the player unit is advancing prematurely. You can prop the playfield up and run a game while viewing the internals. I think the player unit may be in the head though.

Lol.. you'r right. I got my wires crossed and was looking inside the cab. I'll watch the player unit later today.

#8 6 years ago

On a whim I changed the bonus multiplier from 1000 to 100 and the issue went away. That seems a little odd.

1 week later
#9 6 years ago

I spoke too soon. Apparently nobody got a bonus high enough to trigger the issue until today.

The player unit does appear to shift in the middle of counting the bonus and it get applied to player 2.

Any thoughts on what I should check first?

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

Any thoughts on what I should check first?

Quoted from HowardR:

does the Player unit move when the change happens from adding to Player 1 to adding to Player 2?

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

does the Player unit move when the change happens from adding to Player 1 to adding to Player 2?

My post said that it did.

Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

The player unit does appear to shift in the middle of counting the bonus and it get applied to player 2.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

My post said that it did.

And in the post right before my question, too!

Does the Player unit step up solenoid fire when the player unit moves?
And if so, is the Ball Index relay activated when the Player unit step up solenoid fires?

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

And in the post right before my question, too!
Does the Player unit step up solenoid fire when the player unit moves?
And if so, is the Ball Index relay activated when the Player unit step up solenoid fires?

IMG_3687 (resized).jpgIMG_3687 (resized).jpg

Step up the top and Index relay the bottom?

#14 6 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
I can come up with a theory --- but the thory is a bit "whacky" as with my theory You also should have problems in a ONE-Player-Game --- You should have mentioned in post-1: "Two-Player-Game ..." and in a ONE-Player-Game the new ball is kicked out BEFORE all the bonus is counted down" --- and You did NOT write the mentioned problem on ONE-Player-Games.

The big question (Two-Player-Games) is: Does the fault SOMETIMES show up ? --- or does the fault ALWAYS show up ? ALWAYS the same ? Hard to detect are the "SOMETIMES" faults. Another thing of interest is "Does the faulty counting on the second player ALWAYS give the last (lets say) FOUR thousands points bonus to Player-Two ?" (((And Player-ONE has gotten the bonus BEFORE the four-thousands ?)))

The "point of interest" to my theory is "Switches on the Bonus-Unit (mounted on the underneath-side of the playfield" --- TWO switches are actuated when the Unit is stepped (one bonus left) to ZERO-Bonus --- one of the switches is an two-bladed switch --- and the other one is a three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch --- THIS Make-and-Brake-Switch: All good ? Greetings Rolf

#15 6 years ago

Interning idea. I think the bonus mechs idea has merit. It seems like it is giving way too many bonus points. Today it gave something like 100k points with 50k-ish going to player two.

What should I be looking for on the unit? I did find some switch contacts that needed to be cleaned, so I’m going to start there. I’m assuming I also need to verify that the switches are appropriately gapped.

#16 6 years ago

Just did a two player game and confirmed your suspicion. The bonus did carry over from player two to player one and the ball kicked out right as it switched to adding the score to player one.

#17 6 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
I was asking about "sometimes fault happens" or "always fault happens". I also asked about "what happens in a ONE-Player-Game".

I show what happens in a fully functional Space Mission --- You play a ball - You have made some points and some bonus --- You loose the ball. The Score-Motor is not running so "my red 1 Switch" is as shown in the JPG --- "my red 2 Switch" is OTHER - it is moved as You have some bonus made - the ball lost rolls into the Outhole between the flipper-bats and closes "red 3 switch" --- the coil (red 4) on the Bonus-Relay gets current and pulls-in --- its switches do actuate --- among other switches: "red 5" closes - so the relay stays pulling as "red 6" is closed as there are bonus on the Bonus-Counter-Unit.

The pulling Bonus-Relay makes the Score-Motor run and rhythmically 1000 points and again 1000 points etc. are added to the score-drums. Also the turning Score-Motor makes the Bonus-Unit step down - step by step.

Once the Bonus-Unit steps from "One Bonus left" to "Zero Bonus": "red 6" opens so "red 4" quits pulling so "red 2" moves --- NOW through "red 1, 2, 7" the "red 8" gets current --- the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and says: Now is the time to step on the ball / player and kick out a new ball.

You have a problem or more --- and - or : "red 6, red 2, red 7", greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-16 (resized).jpg0Sp-Mi-Work-16 (resized).jpg

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango
I was asking about "sometimes fault happens" or "always fault happens". I also asked about "what happens in a ONE-Player-Game".
I show what happens in a fully functional Space Mission --- You play a ball - You have made some points and some bonus --- You loose the ball. The Score-Motor is not running so "my red 1 Switch" is as shown in the JPG --- "my red 2 Switch" is OTHER - it is moved as You have some bonus made - the ball lost rolls into the Outhole between the flipper-bats and closes "red 3 switch" --- the coil (red 4) on the Bonus-Relay gets current and pulls-in --- its switches do actuate --- among other switches: "red 5" closes - so the relay stays pulling as "red 6" is closed as there are bonus on the Bonus-Counter-Unit.
The pulling Bonus-Relay makes the Score-Motor run and rhythmically 1000 points and again 1000 points etc. are added to the score-drums. Also the turning Score-Motor makes the Bonus-Unit step down - step by step.
Once the Bonus-Unit steps from "One Bonus left" to "Zero Bonus": "red 6" opens so "red 4" quits pulling so "red 2" moves --- NOW through "red 1, 2, 7" the "red 8" gets current --- the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and says: Now is the time to step on the ball / player and kick out a new ball.
You have a problem or more --- and - or : "red 6, red 2, red 7", greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf. I think I have a better understanding now with your description.

Here is what I'm planning to do.
- Power the machine on, but do not start a game, and let it reset everything to zero.
- Verify switch 6 & 2 are open (adjust if needed)
- Verify switch 7 is closed (adjust if needed)

#19 6 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
in this post I only look at the problem "faulty stepping to next player / next ball - when counting down the bonus-ladder".
A fault can happen AAA: Something in the pin faulty makes an Relay to pull. Then as the relay is pulling: Its switches are entitled to actuate --- these actuating switches cause what we then call "fault happens".
A fault can happen BBB: Te Relay is NOT made pulling --- BUT a switch on the relay is maladjusted --- a bit of shaking / vibration and the switch moves just a bit and (maladjusted) actuate --- this causes what we say "fault happens".

To find out if we have AAA or have BBB: A Test-Light mounted parallel to the "Coil on relay in question" is helpful. Looooong wires are at the Test-Light - we clip-on / mount the Test-Light and take it through the open coin-door out into the open --- we play and have an eye on the Test-Light --- and so we "see" what the relay is doing --- beeing faulty actuated (AAA) or not beeing actuated - and from the absence of AAA we then clue "must be BBB".

Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-is-this-8#post-3791310 ONLY LOOK at the JPG --- the "OK stuff": Two car-lamps of 12 Volts mounted to make an 24 Volt Test-Light --- in the upper right corner of the JPG: "any coil" --- see how the Test-Light is hooked onto "Coil on a relay".

The Relay (COIL) I would like to mount such an Test-Light is the Outhole-Relay (COIL) --- then do some testing --- the big question is: Do You have AAA or BBB ?
When its AAA: In here in post-17, JPG: A fault MUST be in "my red 2, my red 7". Greetings Rolf

#20 6 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
in this post I only look at the "stepping down the bonus ladder and at the same time making some thousands of points". Actually there are two (Sub) Features running parallel / at the same time. So the result in a running pin is "as many bonus" - "as many tousands of points added".

The ball is lost and then the pin makes the Bonus-Relay pull-in - it stays pulling until a switch opens when the Bonus-Unit reaches Zero-Position. The constantly pulling Bonus-Relay makes the Score-Motor run. See JPG
Sub-Feature-1, top of JPG: On the Impulse-Cam the switch IMP-C (marked green) pulses, fires shots of electricity to "Bonus-Unit-Reset-Coil (so the Bonus-Unit steps down and down).
Sub-Feature-2, a bit below in the JPG: On the Impulse-Cam the switch IMP-D (marked brown) pulses, fires shots of electricity to the 1000-Point-Relay.

Want to practice "reading schematics" (?) - in the last ball we are rewarded "DOUBLE Bonus" --- the Bonus-Relay is made pulling AND the Double-Bonus-Relay is made pulling --- see that the stepping on both features are done "in another way" (?).

I like my Space Mission --- when I am troubleshooting and for some reasons I NEED a "Turn" of the Score-Motor (((in Williams and Bally pins: Half a revolution, Gottlieb: A third of a revolution))) --- I gently press and let go the topmost switchblade on the INDEX-Wheel sitting next to the real motor. Want to try (?) --- Wear rubber gloves (insulation , Safety Reasons) --- have a game started - pin is ready to play a ball - now press down (in the pin) the mentioned switchblade and let go --- see the motor makes a turn. Greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-17 (resized).jpg0Sp-Mi-Work-17 (resized).jpg

#21 6 years ago

Lots of great detail. Thanks, Rolf!

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