(Topic ID: 253003)

Williams schematic nomenclature question

By paulace

4 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by LeChuck
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Skill Pool Motor schematic symbols (resized).jpg
Skill Pool Motor switch nomenclature (resized).jpg
troubleshoot (resized).JPG
williams switch states (resized).JPG
0Sound-Stage-Work-02 (resized).jpg
Williams schematic note (resized).jpg
C switches (resized).JPG
Williams schematic symbols (resized).jpg
score motor (resized).JPG
Williams score motor cam switches (resized).jpg
other motor switches (resized).JPG
fan-tas-tic start circuit (resized).JPG
fan-tas-tic index (resized).JPG
#1 4 years ago

I'm more familiar with working on Gottliebs and their little quirks regarding how things are drawn and labelled on their schematics - and find myself working on someone's "Fan-tas-tic" by Williams, who have a different way of labelling things.
In the picture shown, what is meant by the "O" outside the make-break switch circled in red? I understand that the "IND.-A" means that it's the "A" switch on the index wheel in the score motor (the other attached photo), but I don't get what the "O" is trying to tell me. In the abbreviations key (nice idea!), "O" stands for open, but that doesn't make sense here, does it?

Thanks for the help!

fan-tas-tic start circuit (resized).JPGfan-tas-tic start circuit (resized).JPGfan-tas-tic index (resized).JPGfan-tas-tic index (resized).JPG
#2 4 years ago

When the motor runs, the switch opens.

#3 4 years ago

Thanks Ken - why do they bother to do that? Elsewhere in the schematic (see photo), there is a normally open switch that has an "O" beside it. They obviously don't do that with all the switches....is it something they only do on index switches? Why would that be?

other motor switches (resized).JPGother motor switches (resized).JPG
#4 4 years ago
Quoted from paulace:

Thanks Ken - why do they bother to do that? Elsewhere in the schematic (see photo), there is a normally open switch that has an "O" beside it. They obviously don't do that with all the switches....is it something they only do on index switches? Why would that be?[quoted image]

Just a WAG here (really asking Ken more than anything else), but I think the "O" is a 'zero', based on the other one you circled that has a '5' next to it. Probably a index number for the contacts?

Then another WAG: no diagonal line is 'normally open' whereas one w/a diagonal line is a 'normally closed'?

#5 4 years ago

Pretty sure it is an "O" not a zero. May be reflecting the state of the switches given the score motor position as the schematic is drawn.

#6 4 years ago

I think it must be an "O" rather than a zero since there is no zero wheel anywhere on the score motor. I think the "5" to the left of that bottom switch must indicate that it pulses 5 times (being on the impulse wheel which has 5 teeth per half turn). It is the B switch on the impulse wheel of the score motor according to wire color.

There are "C"s on the left side of several switches (2nd photo)....which makes me lean toward the "open" or "close" interpretation. But I still don't understand why it's telling me that. I haven't learned to speak "Williams" yet.

score motor (resized).JPGscore motor (resized).JPGC switches (resized).JPGC switches (resized).JPG
#7 4 years ago

The Williams Score Motor annotation is a little confusing and sometimes inconsistent. They did however publish at some point a decoder ring:
Williams score motor cam switches (resized).jpgWilliams score motor cam switches (resized).jpg
The helpful intention is that the switch label is supposed to give you some timing context which should make unwinding a circuit involving a score motor sequence a little easier. So for example a switch labeled 2A (on cam 2) will close momentarily before any switches labeled 3A (on cam 3) or with any higher number. When they did it consistently on a schematic it made things clearer than Gottlieb's notation for example (where 2B happens after everything else). Unfortunately I think these labels were sometimes inconsistent which made things a little worse.

Quoted from mbwalker:

Then another WAG: no diagonal line is 'normally open' whereas one w/a diagonal line is a 'normally closed'?

Williams schematic symbols (resized).jpgWilliams schematic symbols (resized).jpg

These diagrams are from Williams' Intro to Coin Operated Amusement Games available here and other places:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontocoinoperatedamusementgames

/Mark

#8 4 years ago

Thanks, as always, Mark! I didn't drink enough Ovaltine to get the decoder ring, apparently....thanks for the link to the pdf.

So I'm still a bit confused as to what the letter "O" or "C" to the left of the switches indicates. I can understand the number and letter to the right, telling you when the switch changes states and where it is on the stack (and that IS helpful), but why the "O" or "C"? I can see on the schematic that only the score motor switches have the letter "O" or "C", or number "5" to the left of the switch.

And if they were being helpfully redundant and reminding you of what the opposite state of the switch is (is there a 3rd option?), why does that open switch (first photo post #3) have an "O" beside it - wouldn't it be a "C". Is that just a mistake?

Or should I just ignore those damned letters and get on with my life?

#9 4 years ago

Also, I know that Gottlieb schematics are drawn with switches in the positions that they're in when: a 1-player game is started, the first ball is in the shooter lane, and the machine is unplugged.

Are Williams schematics drawn with the machine in the same state?

Sorry about all these questions, but I'm on vacation.....normally, I have a job to occupy my simple mind during the day.

#10 4 years ago

I've seen similar issues with O and C score motor switch labels and don't have a good explanation for that, hence the inconsistencies I mentioned earlier.

Quoted from paulace:

Are Williams schematics drawn with the machine in the same state?

I don't know. Sometimes the schematic will tell you something about the state of the machine, but often it won't, or it will only give you clues like this:
Williams schematic note (resized).jpgWilliams schematic note (resized).jpg
If you're lucky, maybe there won't be any active relays when the game is reset but not unplugged so it won't matter.

#11 4 years ago

Thanks Mark - that'll have to do then. I knew I'd have questions the first time I stuck my little head inside my first Williams machine. Thanks to everyone for the replies!

#12 4 years ago

Hi paulace +
because there is a topic running in a german forum I plan to open up here in pinside a topic "faults in schematics / manual - Fan-Tas-Tic". Funny - Your last sentence in post-8 --- reading Williams schematics from the 1970ies: I simply not pay(ed) attention to these "O" and "C" --- maybe grumbling
- "I see from the "diagonal line" drawn through the switch: The switch is closed, I see it is a Score-Motor-Switch - therefore when the switch will be operated, actuated - it will OPEN --- I simply do not look at the "O".
- " I see from the absence of a "diagonal line" ...
- I see from "IMP." at the drawing that the switch is mounted on the Impulse-Cam of the motor --- there always are mounted 5 teeth on a turn of 180 degrees - O.K., I see written there "5" - who cares.
MarkG - thanks for the link in Your post-7 and the JPG (from the document) --- maybe (?) useful on early schematics on pins when they had the old Score-Motor (looking similar to Gottlieb Score-Motors).

I accept the naming of the Score-Motor-Cams "IND 1 2 3 4 5" as "telling when operating in a turn of 180 degrees - IND is the cam having actuated its switches in Home-Position, cam-1 will actuate at "30 degrees (((one times 30))) ", cam-2 will actuate at "60 degrees (((2 times 30))), cam-3 will actuate at "90 degrees (((3 times 30))), cam-4 will actuate at "120 degrees (((4 times 30))), cam-5 will actuate at 150 degrees "(((five times 30)))".

I look at Williams, Bally, Gottlieb schematics assuming "a game has been started for one player - all the reset stuff has been done, ball has been kicked over to the shooter alley - then pin is toggled-off and / or line cord unplugged".
I never could look up in a Chicago Coin machine - from the schematics (see the JPG) I assume "a game has been started for one player - all the reset stuff has been done, ball has been kicked over to the shooter alley - AND then the pin stays toggled-on and line cord plugged-in".
Greetings Rolf

0Sound-Stage-Work-02 (resized).jpg0Sound-Stage-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#13 4 years ago

Thanks for chiming in, Rolf....good to hear from you. Yes, I like the plan where I just ignore the "O"'s and "C"s...I'm going with that one.

Don't forget to include those score motor sequence errors we (meaning MarkG) found in schematics for "Quick Draw" and "Solar City" for that German site that you're doing.

Otherwise, I like the way Williams draws schematics - I just have to get used to it, being a Gottlieb guy. The score motor is certainly easier to work on with that linear layout!

#14 4 years ago

Hey MarkG - I was looking through that introduction to Williams games, and found this:

So...pretty much the same as Gottliebs.

williams switch states (resized).JPGwilliams switch states (resized).JPG
#15 4 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out. I had overlooked that. Now I wonder if Bally ever specified how their schematics were drawn.

#16 4 years ago

I have the equivalent document for Bally machines - I'll look through it for that info. In the meantime, I'll email you the pdf in case you don't already have it. I must truly be a nerd as I find that fun reading.

#17 4 years ago

*laugh* They make it sound soooo easy! ...almost inevitable!

troubleshoot (resized).JPGtroubleshoot (resized).JPG
#18 4 years ago
Quoted from paulace:

I must truly be a nerd as I find that fun reading.

I combed through all of the technical manuals I could find while preparing materials for my class and have posted snippets in the forum like the one above that folks seem to appreciate. If that makes me a nerd I'm good with that. While going through that exercise I discovered that big chunks of the manuals from two of the manufacturers are word for word the same which makes me wonder who actually wrote them.

#19 4 years ago

I noticed that identical wording too - couldn't remember which one I was reading half the time. I'm sure there was alot of cross-hiring going on at the time - it was a small pinball world in Chicago. Shoot, didn't Gottlieb and Chicago Coin operate out of the same building for a while (until Gottlieb built their own bldg), and didn't Gottlieb hire Chicago Coin employees when CC's business was slow? I seem to remember reading that. And I know artists were working for more than one company, designers were hired away from one pinball company to another because one of their friends worked there and put in a good word for them....all that kind of stuff. It wouldn't be too surprising if someone's intro to flipper games manual made it over to another company.

4 weeks later
#20 4 years ago
Quoted from paulace:

So I'm still a bit confused as to what the letter "O" or "C" to the left of the switches indicates.

I recently ran across this nugget on the Williams Skill Pool schematic on ipdb.org:
Skill Pool Motor switch nomenclature (resized).jpgSkill Pool Motor switch nomenclature (resized).jpg
I think the position of the movable part of the switch (above or below the 2nd contact) also is meant to show NO vs NC switches.

#21 4 years ago

I don't understand those drawings, Mark - what does the "position" mean? Are these normal (2 leaf) switches? Does the position refer to "at rest" vs "energized"?

#22 4 years ago

This game (Skill Pool) uses a 2 cam score motor with a vertical shaft that looks more like a Gottlieb score motor. There's a complete diagram of it on the schematic. The position referred to above indicates which switch stack the switch is in. I suspect though that the number also indicates the relative timing of the switches just like it would on a horizontal shaft score motor with multiple cams.

These are normal 2 leaf score motor switches. The first is Normally Closed and the second is Normally Open. Note that these symbols are rotated clockwise 90 degrees when they're used in the schematic.

The schematic has lots of other interesting symbols that take a little detective work to sort out. Here are some examples:
Skill Pool Motor schematic symbols (resized).jpgSkill Pool Motor schematic symbols (resized).jpg

#23 4 years ago

It seems like the point is to indicate what the switch does during the course of the score motor rotation (stay open, stay closed, pulse once on certain angles, pulse multiple times, etc). The first example on the image linked above seems incorrect - it should be ‘C’ to indicate it’s closed during the rotation.

That being said, I have no idea why the schematic snippet you posted shows a NO motor switch with ‘O’ by it. If that’s not just a single typo instance, then maybe that’s just how they labeled them instead of using ‘C’ (even though it seems completely counterintuitive).

Now I gotta go check my Space Mission schematics to see if they have this too ..

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