(Topic ID: 253003)

Williams schematic nomenclature question


By paulace

13 days ago



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  • 19 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 days ago by paulace
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troubleshoot (resized).JPG
williams switch states (resized).JPG
0Sound-Stage-Work-02 (resized).jpg
Williams schematic note (resized).jpg
C switches (resized).JPG
Williams schematic symbols (resized).jpg
score motor (resized).JPG
Williams score motor cam switches (resized).jpg
other motor switches (resized).JPG
fan-tas-tic start circuit (resized).JPG
fan-tas-tic index (resized).JPG

#1 13 days ago

I'm more familiar with working on Gottliebs and their little quirks regarding how things are drawn and labelled on their schematics - and find myself working on someone's "Fan-tas-tic" by Williams, who have a different way of labelling things.
In the picture shown, what is meant by the "O" outside the make-break switch circled in red? I understand that the "IND.-A" means that it's the "A" switch on the index wheel in the score motor (the other attached photo), but I don't get what the "O" is trying to tell me. In the abbreviations key (nice idea!), "O" stands for open, but that doesn't make sense here, does it?

Thanks for the help!

fan-tas-tic start circuit (resized).JPGfan-tas-tic index (resized).JPG
#2 13 days ago

When the motor runs, the switch opens.

#3 12 days ago

Thanks Ken - why do they bother to do that? Elsewhere in the schematic (see photo), there is a normally open switch that has an "O" beside it. They obviously don't do that with all the switches....is it something they only do on index switches? Why would that be?

other motor switches (resized).JPG
#4 12 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

Thanks Ken - why do they bother to do that? Elsewhere in the schematic (see photo), there is a normally open switch that has an "O" beside it. They obviously don't do that with all the switches....is it something they only do on index switches? Why would that be?[quoted image]

Just a WAG here (really asking Ken more than anything else), but I think the "O" is a 'zero', based on the other one you circled that has a '5' next to it. Probably a index number for the contacts?

Then another WAG: no diagonal line is 'normally open' whereas one w/a diagonal line is a 'normally closed'?

#5 12 days ago

Pretty sure it is an "O" not a zero. May be reflecting the state of the switches given the score motor position as the schematic is drawn.

#6 12 days ago

I think it must be an "O" rather than a zero since there is no zero wheel anywhere on the score motor. I think the "5" to the left of that bottom switch must indicate that it pulses 5 times (being on the impulse wheel which has 5 teeth per half turn). It is the B switch on the impulse wheel of the score motor according to wire color.

There are "C"s on the left side of several switches (2nd photo)....which makes me lean toward the "open" or "close" interpretation. But I still don't understand why it's telling me that. I haven't learned to speak "Williams" yet.

score motor (resized).JPGC switches (resized).JPG
#7 12 days ago

The Williams Score Motor annotation is a little confusing and sometimes inconsistent. They did however publish at some point a decoder ring:
Williams score motor cam switches (resized).jpg
The helpful intention is that the switch label is supposed to give you some timing context which should make unwinding a circuit involving a score motor sequence a little easier. So for example a switch labeled 2A (on cam 2) will close momentarily before any switches labeled 3A (on cam 3) or with any higher number. When they did it consistently on a schematic it made things clearer than Gottlieb's notation for example (where 2B happens after everything else). Unfortunately I think these labels were sometimes inconsistent which made things a little worse.

Quoted from mbwalker:

Then another WAG: no diagonal line is 'normally open' whereas one w/a diagonal line is a 'normally closed'?

Williams schematic symbols (resized).jpg

These diagrams are from Williams' Intro to Coin Operated Amusement Games available here and other places:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontocoinoperatedamusementgames

/Mark

#8 12 days ago

Thanks, as always, Mark! I didn't drink enough Ovaltine to get the decoder ring, apparently....thanks for the link to the pdf.

So I'm still a bit confused as to what the letter "O" or "C" to the left of the switches indicates. I can understand the number and letter to the right, telling you when the switch changes states and where it is on the stack (and that IS helpful), but why the "O" or "C"? I can see on the schematic that only the score motor switches have the letter "O" or "C", or number "5" to the left of the switch.

And if they were being helpfully redundant and reminding you of what the opposite state of the switch is (is there a 3rd option?), why does that open switch (first photo post #3) have an "O" beside it - wouldn't it be a "C". Is that just a mistake?

Or should I just ignore those damned letters and get on with my life?

#9 12 days ago

Also, I know that Gottlieb schematics are drawn with switches in the positions that they're in when: a 1-player game is started, the first ball is in the shooter lane, and the machine is unplugged.

Are Williams schematics drawn with the machine in the same state?

Sorry about all these questions, but I'm on vacation.....normally, I have a job to occupy my simple mind during the day.

#10 12 days ago

I've seen similar issues with O and C score motor switch labels and don't have a good explanation for that, hence the inconsistencies I mentioned earlier.

Quoted from paulace:

Are Williams schematics drawn with the machine in the same state?

I don't know. Sometimes the schematic will tell you something about the state of the machine, but often it won't, or it will only give you clues like this:
Williams schematic note (resized).jpg
If you're lucky, maybe there won't be any active relays when the game is reset but not unplugged so it won't matter.

#11 12 days ago

Thanks Mark - that'll have to do then. I knew I'd have questions the first time I stuck my little head inside my first Williams machine. Thanks to everyone for the replies!

#12 12 days ago

Hi paulace +
because there is a topic running in a german forum I plan to open up here in pinside a topic "faults in schematics / manual - Fan-Tas-Tic". Funny - Your last sentence in post-8 --- reading Williams schematics from the 1970ies: I simply not pay(ed) attention to these "O" and "C" --- maybe grumbling
- "I see from the "diagonal line" drawn through the switch: The switch is closed, I see it is a Score-Motor-Switch - therefore when the switch will be operated, actuated - it will OPEN --- I simply do not look at the "O".
- " I see from the absence of a "diagonal line" ...
- I see from "IMP." at the drawing that the switch is mounted on the Impulse-Cam of the motor --- there always are mounted 5 teeth on a turn of 180 degrees - O.K., I see written there "5" - who cares.
MarkG - thanks for the link in Your post-7 and the JPG (from the document) --- maybe (?) useful on early schematics on pins when they had the old Score-Motor (looking similar to Gottlieb Score-Motors).

I accept the naming of the Score-Motor-Cams "IND 1 2 3 4 5" as "telling when operating in a turn of 180 degrees - IND is the cam having actuated its switches in Home-Position, cam-1 will actuate at "30 degrees (((one times 30))) ", cam-2 will actuate at "60 degrees (((2 times 30))), cam-3 will actuate at "90 degrees (((3 times 30))), cam-4 will actuate at "120 degrees (((4 times 30))), cam-5 will actuate at 150 degrees "(((five times 30)))".

I look at Williams, Bally, Gottlieb schematics assuming "a game has been started for one player - all the reset stuff has been done, ball has been kicked over to the shooter alley - then pin is toggled-off and / or line cord unplugged".
I never could look up in a Chicago Coin machine - from the schematics (see the JPG) I assume "a game has been started for one player - all the reset stuff has been done, ball has been kicked over to the shooter alley - AND then the pin stays toggled-on and line cord plugged-in".
Greetings Rolf

0Sound-Stage-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#13 12 days ago

Thanks for chiming in, Rolf....good to hear from you. Yes, I like the plan where I just ignore the "O"'s and "C"s...I'm going with that one.

Don't forget to include those score motor sequence errors we (meaning MarkG) found in schematics for "Quick Draw" and "Solar City" for that German site that you're doing.

Otherwise, I like the way Williams draws schematics - I just have to get used to it, being a Gottlieb guy. The score motor is certainly easier to work on with that linear layout!

#14 10 days ago

Hey MarkG - I was looking through that introduction to Williams games, and found this:

So...pretty much the same as Gottliebs.

williams switch states (resized).JPG
#15 10 days ago

Thanks for pointing that out. I had overlooked that. Now I wonder if Bally ever specified how their schematics were drawn.

#16 10 days ago

I have the equivalent document for Bally machines - I'll look through it for that info. In the meantime, I'll email you the pdf in case you don't already have it. I must truly be a nerd as I find that fun reading.

#17 10 days ago

*laugh* They make it sound soooo easy! ...almost inevitable!

troubleshoot (resized).JPG
#18 10 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

I must truly be a nerd as I find that fun reading.

I combed through all of the technical manuals I could find while preparing materials for my class and have posted snippets in the forum like the one above that folks seem to appreciate. If that makes me a nerd I'm good with that. While going through that exercise I discovered that big chunks of the manuals from two of the manufacturers are word for word the same which makes me wonder who actually wrote them.

#19 10 days ago

I noticed that identical wording too - couldn't remember which one I was reading half the time. I'm sure there was alot of cross-hiring going on at the time - it was a small pinball world in Chicago. Shoot, didn't Gottlieb and Chicago Coin operate out of the same building for a while (until Gottlieb built their own bldg), and didn't Gottlieb hire Chicago Coin employees when CC's business was slow? I seem to remember reading that. And I know artists were working for more than one company, designers were hired away from one pinball company to another because one of their friends worked there and put in a good word for them....all that kind of stuff. It wouldn't be too surprising if someone's intro to flipper games manual made it over to another company.

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