(Topic ID: 279975)

Williams San Francisco - Reset Relay

By amymcg

3 years ago


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  • 27 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by amymcg
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#1 3 years ago

Hey everyone,

So I’m back and need some help figuring out why my reset relay isn’t firing.

1964 Williams San Francisco
Problem: Score reels don’t reset

What I’ve done so far:
Jumped from transformer to Score Reset Coil - this works
Jumped from Reset Relay to Score Reset Coil - This does not work
Jumped from Impulse motor switch to Reset Relay with two alligator clips ala rolf_martin_062 style instructions - This does not work.
Jumped from Impulse motor switch to Reset Relay direct with one clip - This works and score reels reset.

I should also add that when observing the start of a new game, the reset relay never actuates

So, at this point, I think there is something wrong with the wiring between the impulse motor switch and the reset relay, but there’s a lot happening in the schematic and I could use some help. Other motor cam switches activate the reset relay as well, I think.

I’ve included a pic of what I’ve done so far.

Thanks for any help.
EEA5502F-ADCF-4AE3-BD44-DFFDE433A8C5 (resized).jpegEEA5502F-ADCF-4AE3-BD44-DFFDE433A8C5 (resized).jpeg

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from amymcg:

Jumped from Impulse motor switch to Reset Relay direct with one clip - This works and score reels reset.

Imp-A is a NO switch. Have you gotten in, cleaned, and verified that it is making solid contact? Visual is not enough.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Imp-A is a NO switch. Have you gotten in, cleaned, and verified that it is making solid contact? Visual is not enough.

I have, but I will do it again, perhaps it's just not clean enough. Will keep you posted. Thank you.

#4 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
we do look at the problem "Sore-Reels don't reset" - Yes, Score-Reset-Relay must actuate - actually toc, toc, toc ... actuating rhythmically while the Score-Motor is turning - AND within this time the Reset-Relay must be pulling constantly.

I do not really know how far the "Start-up / Reset stuff" does get - so first I would like to know what happens when You "Toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on the main power switch - then (have Credits on the Replay-Counter) press the Start-Button / Credit-Button" - does the Replay-Relay actuate - does the Coin-Relay actuate, does the motor starts to run, does the Reset-Relay pull-in and stay pulling ? Well, what happens when You toggle-on, start a game ?
(Before looking at the Score-Reset-Relay to actuate we must have the Reset-Relay constantly puling and the motor running.) Greetings Rolf

#5 3 years ago

Hi rolf_martin_062

When I plug in pin and turn on the toggle switch, the lock relay and change relay activate. With credits available, I push the button, and The coin relay and the mystery relay next to it activates, the score motor turns and the bank of relays resets. Ball is released from trough. The reset relay does not activate. If I press the credit button again as though there are two players, the reset relay activates and releases, only allowing score reels to turn one position. Reset relay does not stay on in this case and no score reel relay tic-toc, just a pull and release. Ball in play activates at 1.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from amymcg:

The coin relay and the mystery relay next to it activates,

@amymcg,
It is no longer a mystery relay - you have identified every other relay in the entire machine. By process of elimination, it is the Replay Relay. Plus, it is supposed to activate momentarily when you push the start button.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from sudsy7:

amymcg,
It is no longer a mystery relay - you have identified every other relay in the entire machine. By process of elimination, it is the Replay Relay. Plus, it is supposed to activate momentarily when you push the start button.

Thanks!

#8 3 years ago

Hi amymcg +
the pinside officials do not like us to cross-post but the whole topic I started is also about start-up of Wms San Francisco - and here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/game-relay-game-relay-what-for-williams-san-francisco-#post-5927522 we see Your "Match Unit" in the lower left corner of the first picture - the schematics has some drawings at (area) 19-E, 19-F, 19-G. In post-5 You write "plug-in, toggle-on ... CHANGE-Relay activates". During play the Change-Relay often changes from Non-Pulling to Pulling to Non-Pulling to Pulling etc. - it changes every time when a ball makes ONE-Point. So accidentally / by chance the Change-Relay could pull-in when You plug-in, toggle-on - but I believe to read from the schematics that the Game-Over-Relay beeing in state "Game-Over" should have a switch open so the Change-Relay only can pull-in after a game has started (because when starting a game the Game-Over-Relay changes position - comes to "In-Play" position, closing that switch so by now the Change-Relay is allowed to pull-in). Before troubleshooting on Score-Reset-Relay not working I wold like to look at "Game-Over" / "In-Play". Here https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2049 on none picture I see the text "Game Over" in the backglass - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2049&picno=62551 not the complete Backglass is shown,
questions: When You plug-in, toggle-on - do You see somewhere on the Backglass text "Game-Over" lightet ? --- when You plug-in, toggle-on - are the Score-Drums of Player-1 AND Player-2 lighted ? or ONLY Score-Drums of Player-1 lighted ? or ONLY Score-Drums of Player-2 lighted ? or no Score-Drums lighted ? All written above is my concern "Game-Over or In-Play ?".

To "Score-Reset-Relay does not actuate" - I look at the picture in Your post-1, "marked green, number '4' " and (I believe) text: Jumped from Impulse motor switch to Reset Relay direct with one clip - This works and Score-Reels reset. Question - You toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord - You install "Jumper marked green, number '4' " permanent - You then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - question: And the pin starts, resets the Score-Drums ? You can play and start new games with just this Jumper installed ?

A general remark - when we talk about "whatever-Relay" activates - we better say
"whatever-Relay" pulls-in and immediately let go / quit pulling
"whatever-Relay" pulls-in and after a short time it let go / quit pulling - the Score-Motor does run at that time
"whatever-Relay" pulls-in and after a short time it let go / quit pulling - the Score-Motor does NOT run at that time
"whatever-Relay" pulls-in and stays pulling for (and detailled how long)

You write in post-5 "... Coin-Relay activates ..." - in the schematics I See "Coin-Relay activates AND STAYS active until the turning Score-Motor opens a switch on socalled-cam-5 which actually is the sixth cam" - well, in a running San Francisco the Coin-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling until the Score-Motor has turned almost 180 degrees --- question: Your Coin-Relay activates and stays activated how long (in relation with the Score-Motor making a turn of 180 degrees) ? Greetings Rolf

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

well, in a running San Francisco the Coin-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling until the Score-Motor has turned almost 180 degrees --- question: Your Coin-Relay activates and stays activated how long (in relation with the Score-Motor making a turn of 180 degrees) ? Greetings Rolf

Rolf and Amy,
Taking a quick look at the schematic, in this particular game, it looks like the Coin Relay should stay activated (pulled-in) until all the score reels zero out. It is held-in by one of it's own switches and a switch on the Game Relay. The 2nd time you press the Start button it will pull-in, but then release near the end of a single score motor cycle because the Game Relay (on the trip bank) has been re-latched and it's switch is now open. So, I would start out by looking for a continuity problem with the hold-in circuit for the Coin Relay (specifically the Coin Relay hold-in switch and Game Relay switch).

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Before troubleshooting on Score-Reset-Relay not working I wold like to look at "Game-Over" / "In-Play". When You plug-in, toggle-on - do You see somewhere on the Backglass text "Game-Over" lightet ? --- when You plug-in, toggle-on - are the Score-Drums of Player-1 AND Player-2 lighted ? or ONLY Score-Drums of Player-1 lighted ? or ONLY Score-Drums of Player-2 lighted ? or no Score-Drums lighted ? All written above is my concern "Game-Over or In-Play ?".

I went back to the pin and made sure we were in game over. My game over light has not ever worked for me, but the game itself appears to be in game over state. (Maybe assuming there is something wrong with the light or it's socket is wrong. I replaced the bulb, but it does not light.) The ball stays in the trough behind the gate, etc. When I plug in again and toggle on. The score drums are lit for both players and both player numbers are lit. This is the same state it goes to when a game is over. Also, at the same time noticed when I start a game, the change relay pulls in and immediately lets go. I attached a picture of my glass in the game over state after I plug in and toggle on.

Quoted from sudsy7:

Rolf and Amy,
Taking a quick look at the schematic, in this particular game, it looks like the Coin Relay should stay activated (pulled-in) until all the score reels zero out. It is held-in by one of it's own switches and a switch on the Game Relay.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Your Coin-Relay activates and stays activated how long (in relation with the Score-Motor making a turn of 180 degrees) ?

When I start a game, the coin relay pulls in and then releases coinciding with the time it takes for a 180 degree turn of the score motor, which is not very long.

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#11 3 years ago
Quoted from amymcg:

When I start a game, the coin relay pulls in and then releases coinciding with the time it takes for a 180 degree turn of the score motor, which is not very long.

Your problem appears to be in this circuit (unplug the machine from the outlet - 110v circuit !!! - and check for loose wires, clean/adjust the switches, etc.) :
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Edit: As for the Game Over light, it could well be a bad or dirty socket - it could also be it's switch on the Game Over Relay (check that it is clean and properly adjusted for good contact when that relay is tripped).

#12 3 years ago

Hi amymcg, sudsy7
today in Switzerland we had "switching from daylight-saving-time (ds-t) to normal-time (n-t)" --- it is hour (00:45 ds-t) 23:45 n-t --- time to go to sleep. Greetings Rolf

#13 3 years ago

Hey - just checking in. I’ve had a busy weekend. sudsy7 I went through and made sure no loose wires. I’ll need a little more time to clean the switches. Should be able to update tomorrow.

rolf_martin_062 i forgot to reply to one of your questions. Does the permanent jumper allow me to play the game? I did not test that far. I turned off pin after I saw it reset the score wheels. I will test tomorrow and let you know.

#14 3 years ago

Hi sudsy7
thanks for Your post-7 with the JPG. You are right - the Coin-Relay must stay pulling much longer than I took out of the schematics --- grumble - from later Williams-Schematics I am used to have a dot marking a connection - so I faulty thought: Coin-Relay stays pulling until Score-Motor-Switch-on-Cam-5 opens ...

Hi amymcg
to Your question in post-13 - we actually look at "Your JPG in post-1, marked green jumper": Yes, such a Jumper we can set permanent (to set it we of course toggle-off, unplug main power cord) - Your "marked green Jumper" connects solderlugs that have a direct connection in the schematics. So Your "marked green Jumper" actually is "a set wire to make sure that a permanent connection in the pin truely is functioning".

I allow myself to show Your JPG from another topic here again - see in the lower right corner: I have "marked green" the topmost switchblade on the rightmost switchstack / Motor-Cam. Many Williams-Pins have there the so-called "Score-Motor-Self-Hold-Switch". Please wear rubber gloves / use an wooden stick (Safety Reasons) --- play a bit - the pin is plugged-in, toggled-on, a game has started, Score-Motor is not running --- wear rubber gloves / use an wooden stick - gently press down this (my marked green) topmost switchblade on rightmost switchstack / Motor-Cam - gently press down a bit, after about half a second "let go" - what happens: The Score-Motor will start tu turn - turns for 180 degrees (half a revolution) and the stops.
The reason I ask You to do this "press down and let go after half a second": When we will do testing - we will need to have the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees --- the "press down and let go after half a second" is such an easy way to make the motor to make a turn of 180 degrees. As You do this by now: Besides the motor turning - nothing is happening, by now I just want You to learn "press down and let go makes the Score-Motor to turn". Greetings Rolf

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#15 3 years ago

Hi Rolf,

Just an update - I tried the permanent jumper today from Impulse A - 73 to the Reset Relay coil. It works, the machine resets, but it messes with the scoring for some reason, not sure why without examining the schematic more I guess, but that's not really a solution anyway, just a test.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Please wear rubber gloves / use an wooden stick (Safety Reasons) --- play a bit - the pin is plugged-in, toggled-on, a game has started, Score-Motor is not running --- wear rubber gloves / use an wooden stick - gently press down this (my marked green) topmost switchblade on rightmost switchstack / Motor-Cam - gently press down a bit, after about half a second "let go" - what happens: The Score-Motor will start tu turn - turns for 180 degrees (half a revolution) and the stops.

I did this today, rubber gloves, wooden stick, score motor turns and I didn't electrocute myself.

#16 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
thanks for Your post-15. I am surprised that Your Jumper*** does affect scoring.
It is awful we live in different time zones - for me it is time to go to sleep. I will brood - and write by tomorrow - probably doing another test.
A real problem to me is: Your (JPG in post-1, marked green jumper") jumper*** --- all such Jumper*** we can set permanent - Your "marked green Jumper" connects solderlugs that have a direct connection in the schematics. So Your "marked green Jumper" actually is "a set wire to make sure that a permanent connection in the pin truely is functioning" AND such set wires / jumpers*** to help on an existing wire cannot affect the behaviour of a pin. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Great - You can make the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees - whenever we want - / whenever we need a turn of the motor.

#17 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
the pin is so dangerous - I do not want to proceed in stuff "maybe not needed" - so I ask (first): Please give a detailled description of (mentioned in post-15) ... the machine resets, but it messes with the scoring ... - what exactly happens ? Greetings Rolf

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi amymcg
the pin is so dangerous - I do not want to proceed in stuff "maybe not needed" - so I ask (first): Please give a detailled description of (mentioned in post-15) ... the machine resets, but it messes with the scoring ... - what exactly happens ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf, When the ball drains, the score motor runs and then the score wheel resets when the jumper is in place.

#19 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
You know how to make the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees (pressing the upmost switchblade on the so-called INDEX-Cam on the Score-Motor).

Jumper mounted - You start a game - play a bit, take the ball out, lift the Playfield - NOW You make the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees - question: Do the Score-Reels reset ? Greetings Rolf

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi amymcg
You know how to make the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees (pressing the upmost switchblade on the so-called INDEX-Cam on the Score-Motor).
Jumper mounted - You start a game - play a bit, take the ball out, lift the Playfield - NOW You make the Score-Motor to do a turn of 180 degrees - question: Do the Score-Reels reset ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

So, here is what is actually happening... I start a game, now not a complete reset, press credit button again, then resets...Seems inconsistent with yesterday. Anyway, I play a little, score some points, remove ball from game, make score motor turn 180 degrees, score increases by 50. Put ball back in play, let ball drain through the center hole behind the flippers, score increases by 50. There should be no score at all when ball exits that hole.... So, I think my assessment last time was inaccurate. Count was increasing by 50, but not increasing the hundreds counter...

#21 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
it is frustrating - I seem not to get solid ground under my feet (for then do start troubleshooting). I fear Your pin has multiple issues - symptoms interfere - I cannot unbundle the problems - and as some special spice - inconsistency with yesterday ...
Please do the same testings You did "just before writing post-20" ... remove ball - lift playfield - WATCH, question: Is the Rollover-Relay down in the cabinet steady pulling ? Is the 50-Point-Relay down in the cabinet steady pulling ? Greetings Rolf

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi amymcg
it is frustrating - I seem not to get solid ground under my feet (for then do start troubleshooting). I fear Your pin has multiple issues - symptoms interfere - I cannot unbundle the problems - and as some special spice - inconsistency with yesterday ...
Please do the same testings You did "just before writing post-20" ... remove ball - lift playfield - WATCH, question: Is the Rollover-Relay down in the cabinet steady pulling ? Is the 50-Point-Relay down in the cabinet steady pulling ? Greetings Rolf

I agree. Better to back out and start over. I will do this and update tomorrow.

#23 3 years ago

Point of clarification: When placing the jumper from the Impulse switch wire with color 73 - to Reset Relay, should it connect to soldered lug on the coil itself or to matching color 73 on the leaf switch? I have been going to to the coil. I just want to make sure that I am doing that correctly.

To update, with the jumper in place, I put credits on replay wheel and make sure there are points on the score wheels. Plug in, toggle on. Press Credit button, score wheels reset 5 places. This coincides with number of lugs on impulse wheel in 180 degree turn. So it is no longer pulling until full reset. This does not make sense to me so something else is wrong. Put ball in play, allow some points, take ball out of play, raise playfield. I make the score motor turn with a stick, it rotates 180 degrees, reset relay activates for as long as motor turns and score wheel turns 5 places in attempt to reset. 50 point relay not locked on. This part makes sense to me.

I wanted to make sure to do this early today so you would get the result before late at night for you Rolf.

#24 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
the big difference / question is "is it weekend or not ?".
There is only one way to place a jumper - to place it exactly as shown on a JPG. If there is no room to clip-on the gator-clip where mentioned / drawn ((( the clipped-on gator-clip would also have non-wanted, faulty connection to neighboring solder-lug))) we then must talk and find a way to do "alike test". See the first JPG "marked green jumper, green question-mark" --- we better do not communicate in such form - If I would write "do marked green jumper" - You would have to ask "WHAT exactly shall I jumper ?". See at the bottom of the first JPG the AA, BB, CC, DD - FOUR different ways to set a jumper.
Top-AA, Top-BB, Top-CC are exact implementations --- IF (if,if) it is impossible (not room enough) to clip-on at "Switch-on-Score-Motor-Index-Cam-Position-A-Switch-Solder-Lug-on-blade":

An alternative way to Top-AA is Bottom-AA --- as wire-30-yellow runs in the pin to "Switch-on-Score-Motor-..." and wire-30-yellow also runs in the pin to "Switch-on-Lock-Relay" O.K. - O.K. - we would like to do "Test Top-AA" - as a compromise we do "Test Bottom-AA".
An alternative way to Top-BB is Bottom-BB --- clipping on at solder-lug-wire-73-1-orange-yellow on a better-to-get-at-place.
An alternative way to Top-CC is Bottom-CC --- clipping on at solder-lug-wire-73-1-orange-yellow on a better-to-get-at-place.
See on bottom-right corner of my JPG - "EE" - in a way one or two or more pieces of wire-73-1-orange-yellow do connect many solder-lugs on different relays / switches.

Me and You - we both must know exactly what place to clip-on / have clipped-on - otherwise me or You or we both get confused / led astray - make wrong conclusions.

In Your post-23 You write " ... with the jumper in place ... " - question: Is the jumper set like "My JPG here, Upper-CC" ?

I would like to change strategy - I would like to follow the hint sudsy7 he made in his post-9 --- the Coin-Relay in San Francisco must stay pulling longer then in many other, newer Williams pins.
See my second JPG - some stuff I may want to talk about later - for now look on the bottom-left corner, the Coin-Relay: Wear rubber gloves - toggle-off the pin - then toggle-on the pin - then with an wooden stick activate the armature on Coin-Relay - (simulate coil gets current and pulls) - keep-on pressing the armature , activate, activate - let the motor do his turning - about 2 to 3 turns of 180 degrees - when the huge bank of relays in the bottom of the cabinet (nearby) resets - then let go on the Coin-Relay (no more pressing / activating) - what do the Score-Drums do ? what does the Reset-Relay do ? Greetings Rolf

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#25 3 years ago

Hello rolf_martin_062 and sudsy7

So while you were probably typing this up Rolf, I went out to the pin because I had been sitting in a chair all day, and started checking continuity between the game relay and the coin relay and I found a problem. While the Yellow-Red wire and the Blue-Red wire to the coin relay had continuity, I also noticed there was a green-red wire (B-41) from the game relay to the coin relay that did not.

I saw also 41 Green-Red on a switch on the tilt/latch relay. (This is in the lower right of your picture to the left of the reset relay) I can get continuity from the game relay to this. I fiddled with the nylon piece the leaf springs are in that move with the coil and it is stuck. Seems it got pushed to far in one direction and one of the leafs was half out of its slot, making the whole thing stick. So I put the leafs back in their slots and made sure that it could move back and forth. I plugged in the game, and hit the credit button. Everything resets, play a game, game over light comes on! I did it two more times to make sure. We are now working!

So the problem was in the line from game relay to Coin Relay marked green on your picture, but this tilt/latch relay is in the middle of that circuit somehow.

#26 3 years ago

Hi amymcg
great - You did search (check continuity) on Your own - and found the fault. Greetings Rolf

#27 3 years ago

I would say, not on my own, but because of people like you two taking the time to highlight schematics and teaching me how to look for and trace these problems. I have learned quite a lot so far from the forum and from patient helpers.

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