(Topic ID: 351685)

Williams Ringer- sluggish score reels during startup

By HisboyElroy

18 days ago



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  • 8 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 14 days ago by grantopia
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    #1 18 days ago

    I've had a reoccurring issue with my Williams Ringer zeroing-out the score reels during startup and I want to see whether my logic is sound and I am troubleshooting the issue correctly.

    During the startup sequence certain reels are sluggish and don't seem to have enough power to advance the number on the score reel to the next digit. I have cleaned and adjusted the score reset relay switches many times, as well as the switches on the score reels themselves. Sometimes I can get it to actually work for a few games but the problem will come back and I'd like to fix it once and for all.

    I have noticed that on some occasions when I am cleaning/adjusting the score reel switches, the problem will drift from the 10s digit to the 1s digit, and it may drift from player 1 to player 2.

    Here are things that I have noticed during troubleshooting:

    1- If I manually zero all the score reels and start a game, the game plays and scores perfectly. All score reels advance properly with no hesitation

    2- If I power the game on and manually advance the score reset relay, all score reels will zero-out properly

    3- All of the screws holding the switch stacks on the score reels and reset relay seem to be tight. There is no play if I try to wiggle them

    I know that most people (myself included) will read this and think that the issue has to be with my score reset relay switches or the score reel switches, but is there anyplace else that I should look? I really feel like I've ruled-out those switches at this point.

    Here's a video that shows the problem:

    Thanks for any suggestions!

    #2 18 days ago
    Quoted from HisboyElroy:

    I've had a reoccurring issue with my Williams Ringer zeroing-out the score reels during startup and I want to see whether my logic is sound and I am troubleshooting the issue correctly.
    During the startup sequence certain reels are sluggish and don't seem to have enough power to advance the number on the score reel to the next digit. I have cleaned and adjusted the score reset relay switches many times, as well as the switches on the score reels themselves. Sometimes I can get it to actually work for a few games but the problem will come back and I'd like to fix it once and for all.
    I have noticed that on some occasions when I am cleaning/adjusting the score reel switches, the problem will drift from the 10s digit to the 1s digit, and it may drift from player 1 to player 2.
    Here are things that I have noticed during troubleshooting:
    1- If I manually zero all the score reels and start a game, the game plays and scores perfectly. All score reels advance properly with no hesitation
    2- If I power the game on and manually advance the score reset relay, all score reels will zero-out properly
    3- All of the screws holding the switch stacks on the score reels and reset relay seem to be tight. There is no play if I try to wiggle them
    I know that most people (myself included) will read this and think that the issue has to be with my score reset relay switches or the score reel switches, but is there anyplace else that I should look? I really feel like I've ruled-out those switches at this point.
    Here's a video that shows the problem:
    Thanks for any suggestions!

    Have the score reela been taken apart and cleaned free of old grease and relubed?? Are there any worn parts on the reels? No amount of switch adjustment will compensate a mechanical problem.

    1/2 = your finger is stronger than the coil is pulling in. Is the armature plate clean? Pivots freely? Correct spring? Is the switch ladder broken?

    3 = a wiggle test will only tell you if they're comically loose. Crank them down with a screw driver, your fingers can't evaluate switch stack tightness.

    If you adjusted the score reel switch stacks according to the manual - the manual is wrong. I did a half dozen videos on how Ringer works and I talk about score reels in the first one:

    #3 17 days ago

    Its been a couple years since I've worked on a Ringer, just looked over the schematics to jog my memory. There are two separate circuits that drive the score reels. The point relay and player relay controls them during gameplay; if the game is scoring correctly during gameplay your problem lies elsewhere. The other circuit is in the 'reset' process and uses the score reset relay (that you are tapping with your finger). It uses the switches on the top of the score reels (should be closed at all positions other than zero - I think thats the middle switch for ones and bottom for tens?) and the switches on the score reset relay. The switches need to be clean and stacks tightened. There should be one wire connecting power to all switches on that score reset relay, make sure it is connected well. The score reset relay is pulsed by the Impulse cam of the score motor and (held) by switches on the Game over relay and Start relay all in series (there is an alternate path, but start with this one). Once all reels are at zero, the top switches on the reels close and tell the game over relay to reset.

    #4 16 days ago

    Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it!

    I was looking at it for a couple hours tonight and had to step-away from it for a while...

    Starting with the score relay switches, I checked to see if I could tighten the screws on the switch stack and they were tight. The screwdriver wouldn't turn. The Yellow wire in the picture is the one that supplies power to all the switches. I cleaned the switches. I did notice that when I hit the start button there's a spark at the player 2 1s and 10s reel switches even after I cleaned them. The gap looks good to me, it's very close.

    I also cleaned and gapped the switches on the score motor that pulse the score relay. I did seem to get a very slight improvement doing this, but not enough to fix the issue. I will take another look at it tomorrow.

    Score reset relay (resized).JPGScore reset relay (resized).JPG
    #5 16 days ago
    Quoted from HisboyElroy:

    I also cleaned and gapped the switches on the score motor that pulse the score relay.

    It could be a Normally Open switch in the Start or Game Over Relay, but I was thinking the Score Motor Switch (top set of switches, far right stack).
    When the under switch makes contact, the upper switch should just slightly push upward.
    Also, the spring on the Score Reset Relay is okay? It firmly reopens the switches when
    the coil de-energizes?

    #6 16 days ago

    It sounds like the reels work normally during gameplay…so are you (or were you) able to actually start a game and play?

    It might help to see a video of what the coils are doing when you start the game. Have the switches for the score reels and on the score motor been cleaned and adjusted properly? The game may think the reel is already in the 0 position.

    I had a lot of trouble shooting to do with a basket case Ringer I had and finally got it 100%. Some super helpful people here that may have some better ideas too: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-ringer-penny-pitch-darts-owners-thread

    #7 15 days ago

    Thanks for your replies! I guess I better not work on it tonight since it's Valentine's day

    Mopar, I'll check those relays tomorrow. I did clean and gap that score motor switch so I feel like I ruled that out but I'll revisit it.

    Grantopia, If I manually zero-out the score reels the game starts plays just fine. That's what makes me think the problem is isolated between the switches on the score motor, the score reset relay, and maybe a relay in-between?

    #8 14 days ago
    Quoted from HisboyElroy:

    Thanks for your replies! I guess I better not work on it tonight since it's Valentine's day
    Mopar, I'll check those relays tomorrow. I did clean and gap that score motor switch so I feel like I ruled that out but I'll revisit it.
    Grantopia, If I manually zero-out the score reels the game starts plays just fine. That's what makes me think the problem is isolated between the switches on the score motor, the score reset relay, and maybe a relay in-between?

    Take a look at the position switches on the score reels and make sure they are adjusted properly and cleaned. I had a similar (although not the same) issue where my 10s reel wouldn’t turn over during a game and the position switches need some messing with.

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