(Topic ID: 206864)

Williams People

By o-din

6 years ago


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    There are 137 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 6 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I had heard that possibly Louis Raynaud might have been at least one of the mystery artists but between pinside's list of games and IPDB's I can't tell which games he really did do or if Cristian Marche did them.
    Even some of the info that is documented is not always correct.

    Also a good point, O-Din but Louis Raynaud was a frenchman like Christian Marche and he started work at Ad-Posters after Christian, who himself started in 1965, Shangri-La being his very first design.

    #102 6 years ago

    Mystery artist goes way back alright. There are plenty of games that George Molentin was not given credit for and don't look like his work at all when he was the main guy at Williams. I'm looking at my 1960 "21" right now and have no idea who did it.

    #103 6 years ago

    Molentin's girls all have some kind of the same look, it's easy to select them.
    Somewhere I read the men designed by the mystery-artist have a Charlton-Heston-chin and this is a very good description.
    "21" could be one of these games where some artist did the 'surroundings' and another one the details.
    It looks a bit that this could be an early design by the mystery-artist.

    But I think our conversation could be some kind of boring for most people watching this toppic, maybe we should start a new toppic regarding exclusively the mystery-artist?

    #104 6 years ago

    The "Mystery Artist" I'm referring to is the one who did Bally Blue Ribbon. Safari was probably a different guy. The artist for Williams 8 Ball (1966) is a mystery; could it be the Safari guy?
    .................David Marston

    #105 6 years ago

    Williams 8 Ball was designed by Art Stenholm.
    But Art Stenholm surely did not Bally Safari.
    Safari must be from the same artist that designed Mardi Gras, Big Daddy, Pretty Baby and much more.

    #106 6 years ago

    What's your source for saying Stenholm did the art for 8 ball? None of IPDB, Mr. Pinball, or PinballEric give that attribution. And 8 Ball doesn't have the kind of black-lines that are charcteristic of Stenholm.
    .................David Marston

    #107 6 years ago

    Art Stenholm worked in different styles, I think you should compare 8 Ball to Mad World then you probably will agree.

    #108 6 years ago

    There's also a 'big' discussion going on if Roy Parker or Art Stenholm did the artwork for Gottlieb's North Star, for example.
    Me (and some others too) are quite sure that A.S. did the Backglass and Roy Parker the playfield.

    #109 6 years ago
    Quoted from Mardi-Gras-Man:

    There's also a 'big' discussion going on if Roy Parker or Art Stenholm did the artwork for Gottlieb's North Star, for example.
    Me (and some others too) are quite sure that A.S. did the Backglass and Roy Parker the playfield.

    I discussed this with Wayne Neyens recently for his cover story in the upcoming 5th issue of Pinball Magazine.

    #110 6 years ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    Mike Stroll
    Ken Fedesna
    Python Anghelo
    Bill Pfutzenreuter
    Pat McMahon (came from Bally)
    Dennis Nordman
    Greg Freres (came from Bally)
    Linda Deal

    Michael Stroll played a mean game of Firepower for the BoD and myself at the XCOR International
    shareholder meeting held in Mayfield Heights, Ohio in 1980

    #111 6 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Lyman F. Sheats and Dwight Sullivan both worked for Williams.

    I had the opportunity to meet Lyman Sheats at Replay this past year. I have to give this guy a lot of credit - I introduced myself as a fan of his work; I felt a little bad; I didn't want to bother him being he didn't even know me, but he was really cool, took a few minutes to chat with me and even posed for a quick pic with myself and some friends who were there. Very nice guy!

    #112 6 years ago
    Quoted from dmarston:

    The "Mystery Artist" I'm referring to is the one who did Bally Blue Ribbon.

    The mystery artist or artists I was referring to were the ones that did many Williams games. I didn't mention anything about Bally in that post. Although it does seem like at least one mystery artist did games for both.

    5 years later
    #113 1 year ago

    I'm wondering 5 years later if anyone figured out who the mystery artist for Bally and Williams in the 1960's was? A real history of Ad Posters and those two companies would be fascinating. but will probably never happen.

    I'm also interested which artist did work on the United (Williams-owned) bowler arcade games of the mid-60's. One French commentator had Jerry Kelley doing some of the games, but I haven't located a source for attribution.

    The recently-published book, From Pinballs to Pixels - by Ken Horowitz, has some interesting solid state history, but was very disappointing in the way he handled EM's, slots, and other parts of Bally and Williams art history before the solid state era.

    #114 1 year ago
    Quoted from OldHockeyGuy:

    I'm wondering 5 years later if anyone figured out who the mystery artist for Bally and Williams in the 1960's was? A real history of Ad Posters and those two companies would be fascinating. but will probably never happen.

    Key material from Ad Posters was lost in a fire. As far as I have heard, there is no news on the Mystery artist, or possibly two of them.

    Thanks for the book review on the Ken Horowitz book!
    .................David Marston

    6 months later
    #115 7 months ago

    One more attempt to find out more regarding THE MYSTERY ARTIST - there just was some new discussion about him on Pecos "The Pointy People Ponderings Toppic" but I guess it would be better to discuss it here on o-din 's Toppic.

    There STILL MUST (!!!) be someone who remembers that man and his name - the rumours seem to get even more crazy the more time passes. OldHockeyGuy even told he had heard some weird rumour that "Disney-Dick" White was the mystery-artist - which is insane.
    Regardless all the wild stories from a destroyed building or whatever there must be some information available if only one tries hard enough. Isn't there a Pinsider in Chicago who could do a bit of research? Maybe the last person still alive who could tell some more dies this month - who knows?

    Fact is that the names of the artists do not appear in all of them Williams-Documents of the sixties. The artworks were delivered by Ad-Posters, approved and that was that. That's also why there is still some confusion regarding Christian Marche and Louis Raynaud and who did what.

    Christian Marche hand-typed a list of all names he remembered in the 00ies but he was fully aware that this list was largely incomplete just because he could not remember each name of ca 180 machines he designed 30 to 40 years ago. IPDB-Jay uses that list too. Sadly the guy who asked Monsieur Marche to write that list did not ask him about the Mystery-Artist.

    I asked Jerry K Kelley in 2000 if he knew the names of the ad-posters-artists. He did not, because he was a Loner and a free designer with his own studio who delivered his work directly to the manufacturers. He said it could have been 3 Frenchmen - which goes along to the rumour that the Mystery-Artist was a Frenchman too like Marche and Raynaud. I also asked some german guy who visited the Expo's to ask Steve Kordek about the Mystery-Artist - he did not remember his name too.

    But still - it's not THAT long ago, Jesus Christ! It wasn't in the middle-ages and there were (believe it or not, Millenials!) already Computers and (believe it or not, Millenials!) people DID walk upright on two legs and could talk and write and (believe it or not, Millenials!) they could lead a happy Life without Smart-Phones and Facebook !

    Maybe there's a Housekeeper and his wife still there who can remember anything --- this could be possible for heaven's sake - but the Time-Window is getting closer and closer - so please, if there's a Pinsider in Chicago who could do some research - it's getting urgent.

    ...and YES, it's only a name we search, that's clear - but still I think it's important!
    Don't you agree o-din ?

    #116 7 months ago

    There are two main mystery artists.
    One who worked for both Bally and Williams in the 60s, ( Big Daddy, Campus Queen etc) Milton Caniff inspired.
    and the other who worked for just Bally in early mid 60s. ( Trio, Blue Ribbon, BullFight) His girls were prettier but with V shaped chins.

    Other uncredited games (or at least debatable) include CCoin Festival, Bally Loop the Loop, WMS Big Chief to name a few.
    Plus there are a couple games that i think ate miscredited to certain known artist that i think ipdb has got wrong,
    like Bally Star Jet (I do not think this is Molentin, but the Mystery artist (Caniff inspired).

    2 months later
    #117 4 months ago

    Does anyone know if Jerry Kelley worked, as an employee, for any of the individual companies, including Bally, Williams, or even Chicago Coin or LC Algoren, or instead, he contracted with Advertising Posters to be assigned by them to different companies? Do we know which boss he parodied in the backglass of later work? Did he have to work under George Molentin or was he a free agent who worked with each manufacturer until there were creative differences? I'd like to assemble a draft, tentative chronology of his work for arcade companies.

    #118 4 months ago

    Check this post topic out
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pointy-people-pin-ponderings-homage-to-marche-and-kelley/page/2

    Hook up with Mardi-Gras-Man
    who has more info regarding Kelley than most anyone on here.

    #119 4 months ago
    Quoted from OldHockeyGuy:

    Does anyone know if Jerry Kelley worked, as an employee, for any of the individual companies, including Bally, Williams, or even Chicago Coin or LC Algoren, or instead, he contracted with Advertising Posters to be assigned by them to different companies?

    I believe he contracted with Ad Posters. I attended the one seminar he ever gave at Pinball Expo, and I must have some notes in my archives. Unfortunately for history, he talked only about his art for pinball, though he clearly did very influential art for shuffle alleys (aka puck bowlers).
    .................David Marston

    #120 4 months ago

    David,

    You are one of the people I enjoy so much reading about from the history of pinball. I may have seen and printed out notes from that talk. Others have helped with their exposure to Kelley and Marche. I just want to get my chronology down of what I can piece together of Kelley's arcade career and artwork so others can pick it apart and we can reach the best consensus of his works and also his influence.

    I'm trying to use 2024 as a year of consolidation of work and focus on outstanding projects. Last year I got to tour some magnificent arcades and museums, taking way too many pictures in the process. Met some wonderful people.

    Hope to meet you someday at a conference and see one of your presentations.

    Fred

    #121 4 months ago

    Hey Fred,
    Right back at ya! I'm hoping you'll GIVE a presentation at Pintastic when you've assembled some findings.
    .................David Marston

    #122 4 months ago

    David,

    I wish I could attend Pintastic this year, but have an old guy hockey tournament to play in that weekend~

    Russ Jensen made some notes from that Jerry Kelley talk @ Expo, but I would enjoy your take if you can locate yours.

    Fred

    3 weeks later
    #123 3 months ago

    In addition to wanting to learn more about Williams of the 1960's, I specifically would enjoy finding more information on the ten "Styling of the 60's" game cabinets for Darts, Viking, Jungle, Music Man, Black Jack, Magic Clock, Bo Bo, Caravelle, Highways, Hollywood, and in part, Ten Spot.

    Be fun to know who designed them, production numbers, and the reason, beyond sales, why they were not continued. As others have said, the Jetsons game would have looked great in one.

    Past Times Arcade has a terrific collection of them open to the public.

    #124 3 months ago

    I've got a WMS Darts, and one reason I can imagine the cabinet was discontinued was they are a PITA to take the legs off & on. They're basically table legs secured by carriage bolts. You need to remove the playfield for access to the nuts used to attach the legs.

    That being said, these games have a cool, unique wobble when nudging.

    #125 3 months ago
    Quoted from OldHockeyGuy:

    In addition to wanting to learn more about Williams of the 1960's, I specifically would enjoy finding more information on the ten "Styling of the 60's" game cabinets for Darts, Viking, Jungle, Music Man, Black Jack, Magic Clock, Bo Bo, Caravelle, Highways, Hollywood, and in part, Ten Spot.
    Be fun to know who designed them, production numbers, and the reason, beyond sales, why they were not continued. As others have said, the Jetsons game would have looked great in one.
    Past Times Arcade has a terrific collection of them open to the public.

    I recall that Mel Boldt & Associates designed those cabinets and more for Williams/United.

    #126 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I recall that Mel Boldt & Associates designed those cabinets and more for Williams/United.

    Not only are you a ray of sunshine in Las Vegas, but you have some terrific background to share on Williams/United. Thanks so much.

    #127 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I recall that Mel Boldt & Associates designed those cabinets and more for Williams/United.

    According to Mardi-Gras Man : ( when talking about his conversations with Jerry Kelly)
    One of the most interesting questions would have been this - he told me that he designed both Williams "Styling of the 60ies" and the follow-up-Cabinet. Which isn't "that" astonishing since he became a Star in the Industry for his ground-breaking new design for the "one-armed-bandits" ... BUT I sadly forgot to ask him if he designed the new Metal-Rail-Cabinet for Gottlieb too. Looking at the heavy-duty and very stylish big Lockbar for the 1960-61 Gottlieb-Multi-Players I guess this could be indeed possible. This would mean that he invented the modern Metal-Rail-Cabinet in general and so the modern Look of Pinball that still is up-to-date, with the V-shaped Backbox. Maybe a Gottlieb-specialist could tell more about this

    2 weeks later
    #128 3 months ago

    So many creative artistic and game design ideas flowed at Williams in the 1960's. The three most intriguing to me are: 1) the cabinet design "Styling of the 60's;" 2) the two chrome metal flipper eras in the mid-60's; and 3) the modern art on Williams (and Bally) playfields, including plastics, and backglasses, from 1965-1975. Someone must have been driving this need for innovation.

    I'd like to think that Steve Kordek played a role in much of the innovation. Not been able to uncover anyone associated with the idea of chrome metal flippers. Clearly, Jerry Kelley did the original spade work on modern artwork, mainly cubist, followed by Christian Marche. Kelly may also have had a role in the beautiful, but short-lived, elongated, splayed leg cabinets of 1960.

    Unfortunately, Shaloub's history of the era is heavily Gottleib-oriented, and finding research on flipper and cabinet design is very sparse, but it is a fun discovery journey.

    #129 3 months ago
    Quoted from OldHockeyGuy:

    1) the cabinet design "Styling of the 60's;"

    Styling of the 60s was also applied to Williams rifles, such as Hercules and Vanguard.
    .................David Marston

    #130 3 months ago
    Quoted from dmarston:

    Styling of the 60s was also applied to Williams rifles, such as Hercules and Vanguard.

    That is interesting.

    Well, the advertising for those games is less explicit and the legs are different than those in the pinball games. More research to be done.

    Meanwhile, you have a big event coming up!

    #131 3 months ago
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    1 week later
    #132 80 days ago

    Crusader, Hercules, and Vanguard were all developmental 1959 rifle arcade predecessors of the more formal mid-century modern splayed metal legs of the short-lived "Styling of the 60's" 1960 Williams pinball cabinet begun with darts

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    #133 80 days ago

    The game reference is Darts, not the pinsider incorrectly listed!

    3 weeks later
    #134 56 days ago
    Quoted from pinwiztom:

    According to Mardi-Gras Man : ( when talking about his conversations with Jerry Kelly)
    One of the most interesting questions would have been this - he told me that he designed both Williams "Styling of the 60ies" and the follow-up-Cabinet.

    Mardi-Gras-Man - Looking forward to your further comments on this! In particular, I am trying to figure out who Williams contracted with in the late 1950's/Early 1960 to produce the "Styling of the 60's" cabinet design.

    For background, during the 1950's, household furniture adopted new styles based on utility, simplicity and use of materials other than wood. These changes also affected home entertainment, with novel styles being developed for televisions, radios, record players and combination home entertainment centers. Designer names which were influential in this era included George Nakashima and Paul McCobb.

    Some arcade rifle games manufactured by Williams in 1959 included metal tubing legs, a departure from basic wooden legs.

    A mid-1960 Billboard article described the investment, development and rollout of this new major change in pinball cabinet design. It represented a large expenditure of funds and over a year of development.

    In a recent Pinside thread, https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-people/page/3#post-8088248, MrBally wrote: "I recall that Mel Boldt & Associates designed those cabinets and more for Williams/United."

    When exploring that, it would be helpful to learn how and when Jerry K. Kelley first became involved with the arcade industry. I've seen commentary and some verification that it began with United/Williams bowler and shuffle alley games post-1962 and went on from there. Kelley's design company was named Dawn Studios.

    My subsequent questions involve who contracted with Williams to develop the "Styling of the 60's" cabinet design? Was it Mel Boldt, which did a lot of Chicago product advertising work for various companies, or was it Dawn Studios contracting with Boldt or Williams directly? Unfortunately, sales of this new style of machine did not meet expectations, so no one may have wanted to take credit/blame for the design. Any light which anyone could shine on this puzzle of pinball history would be helpful. I am cross-posting this on the two threads where this issue has been mentioned.

    #135 54 days ago

    Williams people in 1988.......

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    #136 53 days ago
    Quoted from Theo_Ioannis:

    Williams people in 1988.......

    Nice pics!

    1 month later
    #137 5 hours ago

    Here I show you a real great Picture - because this one belongs here in o-din 's Toppic as well as in the "German Press-Reports"-Toppic I put it into both.
    You can see JOE DILLON - STEVE KORDEK and german Distributor HANS H. ROSENZWEIG who, as otherwise noted, was an extremely important Man - in the dvd "The Battle to save Pinball" he and his german Distributing-Company were described as "the 900-Pound-Gorilla" for Williams.

    Published in the german Trade-Magazine "Münz-Automat" to celebrate Mr Rosenzweig's 30th Anniversary as Pinball-Distributor in 1965.

    It reads...

    Everybody has to start somewhere. We always had the feeling that Hans Rosenzweig wasn't born as MISTER FLIPPER but had to work and fight hard to deserve that Title.
    This began in February 1965, as today's Executive of "Nova-Games Hamburg" purchased the first Williams-Machines from Chicago for SEEVEND (Seevend was the euripean Company distributing SEEBURG - and siine Williams belonged to Seeburg back then, Williams-Machines were distributed alongside Seeburg-Boxes).
    "Those first ones were the 2-Player SAN FRANCISCO and (some months later) the 4-Player BIG CHIEF", Mr Rosenzweig remembers.
    The Difference between those 30 year old Machines and those from Today he describes as the Worlds between a german poor People's Car from the 50ies called "Goggomobil" and a Mercedes SE of today.
    "And what did NOT change?" --- "Already in 1965 we took over one Third of Williams's Production - this did not change at all - except for the Numbers imported of course".
    This is more than just one very good reason for Mr Dillon and Mr Kordek to honor and celebrate Hans H. Rosenzweig with several Gifts.
    Mr Dillon holds in his Hands a "Fake-Newspaper" from 1965 celebrating the Start of Mr Rosenzweig's Woerk as Distributor in 1965 while he himself and Steve Kordek hold Ads for S.F. and BIG CHIEF in their Hands.

    BIG CHIEF was indeed a very big Success in Germany. Williams just produced one Four-Player per Year back then. Mardi Gras was the first big Success in Germany, and each following Model was more succesful - Merry Widow, "Whoopee", then Big Chief. A-Go-Go in 1966 and then Shangri-La in 1967 topped them all once more by far. In 1967 then Williams decided to produce more than just 1 Four-Player per Year.
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