(Topic ID: 166301)

Williams Pat Hand: Running Score motor

By fireball2

7 years ago



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  • 9 posts
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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by fireball2
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#1 7 years ago

Working on a Pat Hand with a score motor that just keeps running and running and subtracting credits until I (un)trip the credit relay under the playfield. Then it works mostly ok. I keep thinking it has to be a coin door switch, but...

Any ideas guys?

#2 7 years ago

If a coin door switch was stuck, the credits would be going up (not down). If the game is repeatedly subtracting credits then it sounds to me like the coin relay (AKA the start relay) is stuck on. I would check that first.

- TimMe

#3 7 years ago

Good call. Thanks. Next stop: Start relay.

#4 7 years ago

OK, This machine has issues.
The coin relay is functioning as intended.
But the issues are:
1. If you give it credits, and then try to start a game it will keep running the score motor and subtracting credits and adding players forever. If I trip the credit relay before all the credits are used up, it keeps going until they are, and then stops and will play a four player game (mostly) normally. If i trip the credit relay after all credits are used up and it's on 4 player, it will play.
2. It will ONLY play a four player game, no matter how I manually trip the appropriate relays and move mechs.
3. In the attached pic, what is the second unit in the center rear of the cab called? The label is missing, but stamped on the board, I think it says player unit. But I think that's what the one in front of it is called too. On the rear unit, several of the fingers aren't touching anything. I know one of them controls the 1-4 player up lights (they work), but the rest of the fingers aren't really touching anything. It also had a broken main spring that someone wired together all hacky. It does rotate as intended I think.
4. The thousands relay sticks every time you score something that has thousands.

Phew.

Thanks in advance!

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#5 7 years ago

From your description, the rear stepper unit selects the current player up. That would make the other unit the coin unit, which is used to decide how many players are playing. At the start of a new game, the coin unit should reset to 1 player. Each time you press the credit button (assuming you have credits) this unit should step up once to add an additional player, and also subtract a credit from the replay unit. When you get to 4 players, a switch on the coin unit should open to shut off the credit button.

The credit relay should not be staying pulled in. It should pull in when you press the credit button, run the score motor for one cycle, and then drop out on its own. It's likely that the reason you are always getting 4 players is because the credit relay is stuck on, which would advance the coin unit up to 4 players after four score motor cycles.

There is a lock-in switch on the credit relay that is supposed to keep it powered up for one score motor cycle. There is a score motor switch that should open at the end of each cycle to interrupt the lock-in circuit and allow the credit relay to drop open. I don't have a Pat Hand schematic, but on the Satin Doll schematic this shut-off switch is on the #5 cam. You may want to check the switches on this cam to confirm that they are all operating as they should.

- TimMe

#6 7 years ago

Another possibility with the credit relay sticking is that it is getting mechanically stuck. If there is a lot of gunk on the relay armature and the face of the coil, the relay may sticking for that reason. Cleaning off the gunk with alcohol or metal cleaner should help. If the face of the armature has a severe indentation stamped into it from repeatedly striking the coil center pole, you'll need to grind or file the indentation so that it doesn't have any edges that can get hung up on the coil.

- TimMe

#7 7 years ago

It's not a mechanical issue with the relay; it moves freely when not locked on.
I THINK all the score motor switches are adjusted and working.

Quoted from TimMe:

It's likely that the reason you are always getting 4 players is because the credit relay is stuck on, which would advance the coin unit up to 4 players after four score motor cycles.

Exactly.

I have a Space Mission from the same era, and I can reproduce the Pat Hand issue by holding in the .25 relay. If I do that, my Space Mission exhibits the same symptoms as the Pat Hand.

Quoted from TimMe:

That would make the other unit the coin unit, which is used to decide how many players are playing.

That's how it is on Space Mission. Thanks.

So, maybe an issue with the .25 relay? I can't go look at it for a week, so I am trying to gather as many theories to try as can.

mark

#8 7 years ago

Just to be clear, the rear stepper in this era of Williams games is usually the Coin Unit, which keeps track of the number of players. The spider on the back of it has a lot of fingers on it. The front stepper is usually the Ball Count (or Count Ball) Unit that keeps track of which ball number you're on. It usually has just two fingers. Both bakelite plates confusingly refer to themselves as Player units. It could be different on your game, but it'd be unusual for the time.

The schematic for Pat Hand is here: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1767/Williams_1975_Pat_Hand_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf

As TimMe said, the credit relay should be dropping out on its own after one cycle. It's a little odd that it stops trying to subtract credits after it reaches the zero credit break switch on the credit unit in the backbox. It seems like it should keep trying to deduct credits anyway.

One thing you might try is putting the score motor into service mode and manually rotating it to see just what's triggering/tripping/changing around the game as the score motor advances. There are a few normally closed switches on the score motor that are meant to hold on the credit relay and drop out as it turns, maybe one of them is staying closed.

Cam 5, switch A, in particular, is in series to the Credit Relay. If it stays on, instead of coming open, and the Credit Relay has pulled in once, then the Credit Relay will stay on and never drop out.

Cam 1, switch D is in the circuit that pulses the credit unit reset, which steps down a credit. It should be normally open and close as the score motor runs.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from JoeNewberry:

Just to be clear, the rear stepper in this era of Williams games is usually the Coin Unit, which keeps track of the number of players. The spider on the back of it has a lot of fingers on it.

I finally figured that out from my Space Mission. Thanks.

Quoted from JoeNewberry:

It's a little odd that it stops trying to subtract credits after it reaches the zero credit break switch on the credit unit in the backbox. It seems like it should keep trying to deduct credits anyway.

I must have been a bonehead explaining... It will keep trying to subtract credits all day unless I trip the credit relay. BUT if I trip the credit relay before it's out of credits it won't stop. I have to wait until it has used up all the credits, THEN i can trip the credit relay and stop the madness and play a four player game.

Quoted from JoeNewberry:

Cam 5, switch A, in particular, is in series to the Credit Relay. If it stays on, instead of coming open, and the Credit Relay has pulled in once, then the Credit Relay will stay on and never drop out.

Ahhhh! I like this theory.

Quoted from JoeNewberry:

Cam 1, switch D is in the circuit that pulses the credit unit reset, which steps down a credit. It should be normally open and close as the score motor runs.

Thank You! The Williams score motor diagrams are hard for me to orient. That helps a lot.

Quoted from JoeNewberry:

One thing you might try is putting the score motor into service mode and manually rotating it to see just what's triggering/tripping/changing around the game as the score motor advances.

Excellent idea. Another for the list. I have to drive 20 minutes to work on it, so I want a lot of things to check. Thanks loads!

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