(Topic ID: 115018)

Williams millionaire questions

By sacredgaming

9 years ago


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#1 9 years ago

I just received this pin yesterday and all the flippers were not working. Upon investigation I see that the fuse is blown on the fuse holder. I am new to pins but, have some decent understanding of electronics.

I have checked the flippers and other than the switches being a little corroded they appear to be fine. What else would cause these this fuse to blow?

That brings me to the next question.

While looking for the flipper problem I discovered a blown transistor. The schematics say that this goes to a special solenoid (#1 in particular). Is this relatively normal on these older machines?

Thanks for any help as Im sure this wont be the last question I ask

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#2 9 years ago

It happens. Flippers draw a lot of current and if both flipper buttons were pressed at the same time, three solenoids activating could be enough to blow the fuse. Shouldn't happen... but it could.

Measure resistance on all of your coils and make sure none are shorted. Flipper coil large windings should read around 3 ohms, small windings can read into the hundreds. All other playfield coils should read around 10 ohms. Go through self-test and verify all coils work as they should.

#3 9 years ago

Best advice I have would be to go through the game systematically, completely. Which fuse is blown? (on what board, id#?) The special solenoid transistor is usually a result of another cause, such as a stuck switch. You may have more than one problem, especially on a newly aquired game. All the fuses should be checked for proper values and other basic checks to evaluate the health of the game.

Read http://hansbalk.home.xs4all.nl/rep/sys11/index1.htm (especially the section about what to check before powering on the game for the first time) and the PinWiki http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11 . This will give you some information under your belt to work with.

Go into diagnostics if the game boots, run switch tests and coil tests and compile a list of what is reported broken, and we all can help work through the problem(s)

#4 9 years ago

best to go ahead and replace the fuse and transistor? then test?

any risk leaving the machine powered on at this point?

#5 9 years ago

@wayout That pretty much answers my questions. The fuse that is blown is for the flippers.

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#6 9 years ago
Quoted from sacredgaming:

best to go ahead and replace the fuse and transistor? then test?
any risk leaving the machine powered on at this point?

You read pretty fast, eh?

You can replace the fuse, but it will likely blow until you research why. You should also perform some pre-checks of the coils. A shorted coil can take out a transistor as well as a fuse, and the special solenoid transistor is unrelated to the flipper problem. You should also do a switch test to discover if any locked on switches are holding any coils on, as this can also blow a transistor or fuse.

#7 9 years ago

working through the information now. Once I've done some basic reading on the information provided. If all is safe I will power on the machine and do some diagnostics and report back with my findings. Thank you for your help.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from sacredgaming:

@wayout That pretty much answers my questions. The fuse that is blown is for the flippers.

That fuse is for one branch of the general illumination. So it looks like that is a third problem as well.

#9 9 years ago

So it is. for some reason I was looking at the colors and trying to trace the wire back to the flipper board. Looking in the book it shows it as part of the GI.

#10 9 years ago

A quick update. I have not had the opportunity to fully check the machine. Upon initial investigation the pop bunpers, sling shots and flippers dont work. Alot of the other kickouts work. Hoping they are all tied to one thing. On a side note Even though the GI fuse is blown, i don't see any sections of lights not working.

Will do more investigation tomorrow.

#11 9 years ago
Quoted from sacredgaming:

A quick update. I have not had the opportunity to fully check the machine. Upon initial investigation the pop bunpers, sling shots and flippers dont work. Alot of the other kickouts work. Hoping they are all tied to one thing. On a side note Even though the GI fuse is blown, i don't see any sections of lights not working.
Will do more investigation tomorrow.

Flipper fuse is on the 50V board. The fuse you pointed to is General Illumination, the lights that come on when the machine is powered up, but are NOT controlled by the logic of the machine. the GI lamps could be playfield, backbox, or coin door. A usual hack made to machines is to jump one GI line to another somewhere else in the machine as one fails (then that line overheats and fails, rinse, repeat). Thus why the suggestion to fix the GI connectors, and check things out.

Special Solenoid 1 is for the left gate ball save, it probably got shorted out and took out its transistors and the fuse for the 6 special solenoids as well (pop bumpers and kickbacks). It also could of fried since the board you have is out of a High Speed (I'll let you figure out how I know) and is a system 11 and you have a system 11A machine. When Williams moved to system 11A they put the damping diodes for the special solenoids on the circuit board, thus you are probably missing them, and this will blow the transistors too.

Replace both the 2n4401 and the tip102 (Q74 and Q75) when you replace them (they go out in pairs).
Then make sure that on the back side of that board someone added the 6 1n5243 diodes to the special solenoid inputs and someone ran a ground wire from 1J18 pins 6,7 to ground, otherwise the special solenoids will not work; the 6 diodes and the ground strap allow the system 11 board to work in all system 11 machines (11, 11a, 11b, 11c).

#12 9 years ago

Another thing - is the transistor really bad? Or are you guessing because of the discoloration? It could have been replaced, without cleaning up the burn marks.

Q75 is the transistor for the left gate on the playfield. Does it work during gameplay?

I see the 7402 above the flipper relay is socketed. That's U45. U45 controls the special solenoids, so it's possible one hit took them both out and they were repaired.

#13 9 years ago

You sir are amazing, with your wealth of knowledge . My left gate doesnt work so you are absolutely correct.

Here is what I found.(listed below) The seven segment led is a dead giveaway.

Would it be considered overkill to just replace all the transistors? I think I counted 60 ish which would only take me about an hour to replace.

Per the bulletproofing section I figured I would go ahead and replace the CAPs as well, along with adding fuses to the bridges and replacing the battery holder with a 3f CAP. I think I would probably be out around $70 for all the caps,transistors,fuses etc... Worth it?

Also where is a good place to get the 3f caps? I found most stuff on Great Plains but, the 1n5243 only comes in rev B which is double the voltage recommended ie. 6.3v vs 13v. So I will probably need to source those elsewhere.

Either way, thank you for your wealth of information and I am already compiling an order. I'm overly eager to get this machine back to life. Right now everything powers up sounds good but, its like a man with no arms at a clapping contest. Just pitiful really.

System 11 CPU board.
Part number D-10881. Uses a 7 segment LED on the CPU board to display the game's diagnostic codes. This version of system 11 contains the amplifier circuit for the sound board. It also has a complete, but unused opto switch circuit.

System 11A CPU board.
Part number D-11392. Uses 3 LED's to replace the 7 segment LED for the game's diagnostic code display on the CPU board. The special solenoid circuit is changed; jack 1J18 now has ground connected to pins 6,7. Also zener diodes ZR3-ZR8 (1N5234, 6.2 volts) were added. Finally jumpers W16, W17 were added to ground pin 38 of the 6802/6808 microprocessor U24. If a Motorola microprocessor is used, W16, W17 must be connected. If any other brand of microprocessor was used W16, W17 must not be jumpered.

#14 9 years ago

@john I was typing up that long reply and didnt even see yours . I am going to pull the board later today and check to see if the diodes were added. As far as the transistors, I've followed a guide that suggested using the ohm portion of the DMM one side connected to the ground strap the other on the TAB and check for a null reading.

In other replies this has been stated as inaccurate. I did test the right bank of 16 and some registered some did not. If there is another way to do this please let me know.

EDIT:

by the way you own one of my favorite pin's. Monster Bash such a great game. Also both you and madman have CFTBL. Im a little jelly! One day.....

#15 9 years ago

Don't forget to get those alkaline batteries off the board right away!

GI IDC connector looks a little toasty, you may be in for some connector repinning as well.

#16 9 years ago

Yeah going to replace them with 3f CAP.

#17 9 years ago

I thought I posted this earlier but, I guess it did not go through.

I have removed the board from the machine and see some foolery. It does appear at some point the transistor for q75 and q76 were replaced. I will make sure to post all the pics tomorrow morning along with the order list from Great Plains .

I do see some corrosion around some of the IC's so a good cleaning and reflow of the solder cant be a bad thing.

I do have one question, some of the transistors are TIP42 can those be replaced with the same TIP102's or do I need to order something special for that bank of 8?

#18 9 years ago

I would only replace transistors if they are bad.

No reason to replace the TIP42s unless they are bad. I used to do mosfet swaps, but quickly realized they were generally overkill and unnecessary - unless a board is burnt to a crisp in the lamp matrix resistor section. That happens sometimes - especially on Sys11 shuffle alley boards - but is pretty unusual in most games.

Bulletproofing guides are nice, but Sys11s don't really need them commonly. Perhaps they were built or engineered better, or perhaps they aren't old enough yet to start having some of the issues earlier games had. I repair a lot of them, and don't find bulletproofing is really necessary on the games.

Fuse the bridges - absolutely. Get a few of every transistor used on the board, should you need to replace a few bad ones - but don't replace all the transistors, or go through and replace all the caps.

Easiest way to test the transistors? Put the game in solenoid test, and see what works, and what doesn't. If something doesn't work, use the manual and figure out what transistor drives it - and test that transistor with your DMM. Depending on the type of transistor, you put the leads of your multimeter at different leads of the transistors, and check for values. You can test a working transistor and compare it to a non-working one, and figure out if the transistor is close in values or not.

A non-working solenoid doesn't always indicate the transistor is bad; it can indicate that something earlier in the circuit has failed as well. Bad PIAs and other ICs are not unheard of.

1 week later
#19 9 years ago

I already ordered the parts before I saw this message. I have replaced the tip 122's with tip 102s and replaced the tip 42's with mosfets, removing the ceramic resistors and putting jumper wire in it's place. I also put in a 1.5f capacitor for the battery and have since done the upgrade for adding the diodes in the special section of the board.Added fuses to the bridge and replaced fuses throughout the board. So I think i have my bases covered there. However, much to my dismay I powered on the board and see magic smoke... Looks like I burned up one of the pre drivers for the mosfets, so, I've powered down the machine and am awaiting parts from greatplain to replace the pre drivers.

I also noticed today while doing some inspection that someone replaced one of the flippers with a parallel wound and didnt even do it properly. Would this mistake have burned something else up in the series that could be causing my jet bumpers, slingshots and general flipper problems?

I've placed an order with Pball life to go ahead and upgrade to fliptronics style flippers as they needed to be replaced anyway.

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