(Topic ID: 126740)

Williams Lock Relay- Modern Solutions?

By Nighthawk128

8 years ago



Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    DSC01123.JPG
    DSC01127.JPG
    Shangri-La-Kick-Off-Switch-Bolt.JPG
    #1 8 years ago

    I'm a terrible OP, so bare with me. The lock relays on 60's (50's- 70's) machines are always on, I get that. The reality with 60Hz power is the relay coil cycles and so the mechanical armature opens and closes 60 times per second. Reduced spring strength, reduced switch tension resisting the armature on power stroke considered it will still vibrate. Vibration is dissipated as heat regardless as to how flat or clean the assembly is.

    Is there any modern replacement assembly of the Williams Lock Relay? My particular machine joins only 3 switches when the coil is energized. As quiet as it is, it heats up at the armature first which is expected with this design using AC.

    What are your comments, have you considered a low temp option for this application?

    #2 8 years ago

    Sounds like you can just remove the lock relay:

    http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0424.html

    Clay covers this in his guides I think, see:

    http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#reset

    and scroll down to "no burn".

    #3 8 years ago

    I'm looking past that, Thanks for your reply.

    #4 8 years ago

    Well, disabling the relay and permanently closing the switches is a low temp option.

    It sounds to me like you're looking for an answer for a question that has never been asked.

    #5 8 years ago

    Hi Nighthawk128 and other lovers of "Williams" Pins
    The "Williams-Lock-Relay" is a strange / funny thing, worth to discuss / have a closer look at. To my belief: The "use" of the relay changed over the years. I mainly know the Lock-Relay as a "Williams-Goodie": THE LEFT FLIPPER BUTTON SWITCH (L-F-B-SW).
    I do not have and therefore i do not know "Bally". I have several Gottliebs (none has the L-F-B-SW). I have several Williams: Shangri-La (March-67, with L-F-B-SW, MY ONLY WILLIAMS THAT HAS NO MAIN SWITCH UNDERNEATH THE CABINET), Jolly Roger (Dec-67 with L-F-B-SW), Fan-Tas-Tic (Sept-72 with L-F-B-SW), Fun Fest (Feb-73 with L-F-B-SW), Space Mission (Jan-76, NO L-F-B-SW), Big Deal (May-77, NO L-F-B-SW).
    The L-F-B-SW was a cool goodie for the Operators: In the evening they went from Pin to Pin - opening the Coin Door (taking out the Money), turning off the "main switch" and immediately afterwards turning it on (ONLY flipping off and then on (again)). The next morning the went from Pin to Pin - pushed the left flipper switch -> the lights of the pin started to light - "This Pin is ready to play". VERY COMFORTABLE FOR OPERATORS - but only "Williams" (of certain years) ...

    Nighthawk128 - it depends on "What Year is Your Williams from" ? Do You have an L-F-B-SW ? Do you want to have / keep the comfort of the L-F-B-SW ? If "Yes", then You need the Lock-Relay. If "No", then you can cut one "Wire to the Coil of the Lock-Relay" AND mechanically PERMANENTLY close the Lock-Relay (Anchor-Plate).

    You are the owner of the Pin - You do not treat Your Pin bad (You do not slam against the coin door / You do not bang / beat (by hand or by foot) Your Pin - (do You ?) Because: Another use of the Lock-Relais was "Punishing rude players" - in the schematics You can see switches with text "Anti-Cheat-Switch" / "Slam (Tilt) Switch" / "Kick-Off Switch" (a bolt through the Mech. Panel opens this switch - if You beat the "underneath of the cabinet" with Your foot.)

    A good example is Fan-Tas-Tic -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=820 -> make a copy of the schematic onto your computer (right-mouse-click) -> open Your copy and look at C-4, D-4, E-4, F-4.
    The "Kick-Off-Switch" (HEAVY-Tilt-Switch) is closed, You throw money in OR YOU PUSH THE LEFT FLIPPER SWITCH -> the coil of the Lock-Relay gets current -> the Lock Relay closes its own "Self-Hold-Switch" and stays "active" for You to play.
    And look at A-1 / A-2: When the Lock-Relay is "active" -> switches are closed for the illumination ...

    About Your question on "using other relays": I live in Switzerland and I love "Finder-Relays" (AC - Alternating Current, 24 VAC) like: http://www.newark.com/finder/40-52-8-024-0000/power-relay-dpdt-2co-24vac-15a/dp/04M7655?CMP=AFC-OP ( these relays have 2 M&B switches attached - I do not know this company ! / I never tried to buy from this company !). Besides "Finder-Relays" I Like the Williams "M-29-1100 Relays" used throughout the Williams Pins.

    I can make a test: Disconnect a original Lock-Relay and connect "parallel" two Finder-24-VAC-Relays -> and then let the Pin "On" for several hours -> do these 2 Finder-Relays this get hot after several hours ? Well, I don't know yet - I have several Finder-24-VAC in my pins - but in "regular" service / not (yet) in continous duty -> within one / two weeks I will report ...

    About "A Relay is humming": Usually the spring pulls to hard - the spring and the magnetic field fight on "Who gets the Anchor-Plate" ? (The magnetic field gets weaker / stronger 60 (Europe 50) times per second -> a "hum" of 60 (50) Herz. You can try: Take away the spring - on many relays the tension of the blades of the attached switches are strong enough to put the anchor-plate back ...
    (Question: Does the anchor-plate sits good (without the spring) in place ?)
    Greetings from Switzerland, Rolf

    #6 8 years ago

    Hi Nighthawk128
    I made a picture of my spare Shangri-La "Mech. Panel". In the picture: Underneath (towards You) of the Score Motor You see a round (white) Nylon-Thing - attached at the "Mech. Panel" by three screws. Through the Nylon-Thing moves a Bolt (Black) down (gravity) and up (an impulse, if You bang with Your foot from underneath against the bottom-plywood of the cabinet). The bolt then opens an Normally-Closed-Switch. Unfortunatedly a Pre-Owner has taken away the original switch - "for to show" I laid a (too short) N.C.-Switch nearby.
    Now look at http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=64764 "Grey" is the Stop for the Switch. "Copper-Colour (thin blades)" is an original N.C-Switch. You cannot see the bolt - it is underneath the "Copper-Coloured-N.C-Switch" and the other side of the bolt rests on the plywood below (there is an empty space between the plywood and the Mech. Panel). This goodie is the "Kick-Off-Switch", drawn in the schematic near the "Lock-Relay-Coil". This "Kick-Off-Switch" opens the "Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Lock-Relay".

    I "hooked in" a Finder-24VAC-Relay (from the 24 Volt Fuse -> Finder-Relay-Coil -> "Common-Ground-YELLOW at the transformer". The Pin is turned on - after one hour the Finder-Relay is warmer than Body-Temperature, it is +/- hot, Yes - but I can hold it with my fingers - warm / hot, well Yes - but my fingers feel comfortable.

    The ipdb-manual: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2110/Williams_1967_Shangri_La_Partial_Manual.pdf writes on page-6: "Lock Relay Z 28-1150". I strongly advice: Look up in Your Schematic and buy a new Coil for replacement. If Your pin has no "Main Switch underneath the Cabinet near the Player": Install a "Main Switch" as discribed -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm -> down to 3b. When Thing Still Don't Work: -> after the 4th picture: Power Switch and Power-On Lights ? -> Read until You come to the picture "An added Power Switch on a 1966 Gottlieb Hurdy Gurdy Single Player EM Pinball". (((I do not like him for "to bend permanently-closed the Left-Flipper-Switch" - at least he should put a tag on saying "I permanently closed this Switch for ..."))).

    Again, I strongly advice: Buy a new coil for replacement - and turn Your pin OFF when not playing.
    Depending on "what kind of wiring Your pin has" You might cut a wire (leading to the coil of the Lock-Relay - (no more electricity through the coil)) and mechanically-permanently close the Lock-Relay (take off the spring) - put a tag on "I did this because ..."

    I actually DO NOT advice: Replacing the original Lock-Relay by "New-Finder-24-VAC-Relays". You could do: In Post-Number-1 You wrote: "The Lock-Relay throws only 3 switches" -> Finder-Relays come with 2 M&B-Switches to throw -> You need 2 or 3 Finder-Relays -> the first Finder-Relay takes place of the old Lock-Relay: One switch on the Finder-Relay You use for the "Self-Hold-Switch". The second switch on the Finder-Relay You use: You let 24 VAC-Current flow for (one ?) two Finder-Relay-Coils (THESE 2 COILS ARE PARALLEL MOUNTED) -> the Switches on these Relays take place of the switches of the "Original-Lock-Relay". (On my Shangri-La (the original Lock-Relay has 4 switches) I would have to install 3 Finder-Relays for replacing the old Lock-Relay - I WILL NOT DO THIS). Greetings Rolf

    P.S.: Is somebody reading this and he has worked as an Operator in the 1960ies ? -> Was it common for Operators to turn off "Pins without Main-Switch" by banging with a foot (from underneath) onto the bottom cabinet-plywood -> the bolt is jumping up and so opens the "Kick-Off-Switch" -> Lock-Relay looses current and gets inactive -> the pin is turned off ... Please write about: How were pins (NO MAIN SWITCH) turned On and turned Off ?

    Shangri-La-Kick-Off-Switch-Bolt.JPGShangri-La-Kick-Off-Switch-Bolt.JPG
    #7 8 years ago

    Wow thanks Rolf!

    My machine is a 1963 Major League Baseball game but your board is similar. If the game is on, if the lights are on which is full time even in game over that coil runs. the power to the coil has to be clean amperage capacity wise.

    Even though, I'd like to keep the machine factory where it can be tilted which it all works, I'm having second thoughts on having the original mercury switch working. I don't punch and kick arcade games anymore =D. It's the knowing your friends and family can tilt it brings comfort when I'm not around.

    This game has one N/c switch and two N/o, so I'd go 3 Pole double throw for the option however... I'm going to try bridge rectifiers and capacitors first, just for fun to see what it does. I found using half wave rectification it makes an Awesome magnet but without a good spring it really wants to hold on after turning off, and still gets hot.. can smell the 50 year old wood really well after 30 mins..

    If rectifiers don't work, then I'll try a power relay. I'm using a filter right now, my armature on the lock relay still can take flesh off so I'm concerned about that mind you it's not RED hot.

    DSC01127.JPGDSC01127.JPG

    DSC01123.JPGDSC01123.JPG

    #8 8 years ago

    On games without a power switch, it was common to tap the bottom of the game to turn it off.

    Bally also used the left flipper button to turn on the GI lights.

    I'm not really sure I understand all this just for a lock relay. Just clip a lead and permanently close the switches. No need to reinvent the wheel on this one.

    #9 8 years ago

    Hi EMsInKC
    thank You for writing "it was common to tap the bottom of the game to turn it off". I did not know this - I always turned-OFF my Shangri-La by unplugging the line chord ...

    Nighthawk128, if Your 1963 Baseball game has a "Main Switch (for 110 VAC)": Turn-Off after playing. If Your Lock-Relay still has current (after turning-Off the Main Switch) then check your Main Switch.
    If Your 1963 game has no Main Switch: After playing turn-Off the pin by tapping the bottom of the game. If the pin does not turn off, then check if a Pre-Owner has bent the Left Flipper Switch "permanently-closed". And then bend that switch back to normal function (Normally-Open / closed when the Left Flipper Switch is pushed) ...

    If a relay is humming - and this is bothering You: Try to take away the retaining (returning) spring ...

    Do not work "AC -> DC" just for the Lock-Relay. The use for "DC" is "to get more power to the bumpers". Look at my post-16 here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/can-you-drive-an-em-coil-with-dc-power

    EMsInKC is right - No need to reinvent the wheel on the Lock-Relay. Greetings Rolf

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-lock-relay-modern-solutions and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.