Williams Jackpot player step up after resetting

(Topic ID: 235292)

Williams Jackpot player step up after resetting


By Klokkie

13 days ago



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  • 37 posts
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  • Latest reply 21 hours ago by wizardblom
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0Jackpot-Work-02 (resized).jpg
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reset relay (resized).JPG
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#1 13 days ago

After working on the reset issue from my Williams Jackpot i thought i had it solved. What happened is that the 10 point and 100 point from the first player was not resetting but after advise from Ronald i did replace the switches on these reels and that solved the issue.

The whole playfield is scoring all points in the correct way and the resets works fine but what still is happing is that when i hit the reset button and the credit unit goes 1 step down but then the strange thing happens, the player light goes from 1 to 2 players and this happens everytime.

So i hit the button 1 time and it goes to 2 player mode.

After the game-over the lights or the ball 5 and player is still burning and does not go out.

I have no clue what this could be so is there someone who had the same issue

#2 13 days ago

You might have a short on the P1/2 lite sitch. The likely cause of the end problem is the make/break on the Game Over relay.

Capture (resized).PNG
#3 13 days ago
Quoted from Klokkie:

the ball 5 and player is still burning

At end of game, the Ball Count unit should step past where it powers the light for Ball 5. Does it?

#4 12 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

At end of game, the Ball Count unit should step past where it powers the light for Ball 5. Does it?

I am at work at the moment but yes i do think so.

If i do a manual movement from 1 to 5 on the unit it goes to 5 ball easy and then there is an extra step and the ball light nr 5 is out.

When the machine is normally played and goes to game-over the light nr 5 ball and the player nr are still on, the ball count unit is not making the extra step.

#5 12 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

You might have a short on the P1/2 lite sitch. The likely cause of the end problem is the make/break on the Game Over relay.
[quoted image]

Okay, i need to check that. It looks that the game-over relay works fine, i did not noticed it but had not a real detailed look at it because it worked okay i thought.
Will check when back from work.

#6 12 days ago
Quoted from Klokkie:

I am at work at the moment but yes i do think so.
If i do a manual movement from 1 to 5 on the unit it goes to 5 ball easy and then there is an extra step and the ball light nr 5 is out.
When the machine is normally played and goes to game-over the light nr 5 ball and the player nr are still on, the ball count unit is not making the extra step.

I have no idea what nr means

#7 12 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I have no idea what nr means

I mean player nr 1 and so on. I think nr is typical Dutch, it means number.

#8 12 days ago
Quoted from Klokkie:

the ball count unit is not making the extra step

If the Ball Count unit doesn't step up when it should when set up for 1 player, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

Pinball (resized).png
#9 12 days ago

Got it. The schematic above helped me in the direction needed. It was a mis alignement on the reset relay m.b switch what opens in circuit to replay relay and closes to run the scoremotor. I opened the gap a bit between the switch arms on the make side and that was the solution.

Thanks for all the help.

#10 11 days ago

I did write that i did solve the problem. It has changed to i do know were the problem is.

The machine is still doing strange , one time he is resetting the correct way , now and then he is making the extra step on the coin unit ( so goes to player 2) and sometimes he stays in game over but are the ball and player lights on.

I have figured out that the game-over relay and the coin relay and reset relay are in relation with eachother.

My question is the following : Is there a possibilty that the switches on these relays are getting weaker in the period of time that they are used on the machine ( from 1971 )and that because of this the adjustement is mis aligning so the sequence of resetting is wrong why all these strange things are happening.
Or are maybe bad switch contacts an issue on this.

#11 11 days ago

Tighten the screws holding the contacts.
The spacers sometimes shrink over time or due to different (dryer) environment.
Then you get the interimittent problems...
Inspect the plastic plates holding the contacts, I had a bad worn out one on the game over.

#12 11 days ago

Hi Klokkie
I agree with Wizardblom - the bakelite spacers in a switch can shrink and the screws may get loose --- a good article to read is the whole "2f.": http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean .
In post-10 You write "Extra-Step on Coin-Unit" - followed by "(so goes to player 2)". I have a problem in understanding - to me "going to player-2" means: The Williams-Player-Unit is stepped so player-2 plays the ball and makes points - faulty as the game has been started as a Single-Player-Game.
"mysterious-fault-A" - do You have an unwanted step on the Coin-Unit (Backglass shows "Two can Play") - or is it a "One can play game" but faulty player-2 gets the points of the first kicked-out ball ? When You start a new game (so You start a One-Player-Game) - and the mysterious-fault-A does not happen - You then press for "Two can play" - do You ever have faults showing up ?

Please do a test - play a ONE-Player-Game till Game-Over so the Score-Drums of Player-2, -3, -4 are all resetted / they all show Zero. Manually step on the Score-Drums of Player-1 - put exactly 00400 points on the Score-Drums of Player-1. Then start a new game - question: Does mysterious-fault-A happen ? (((see the schematics at "7-E" - I have the wacky theory: The Make-and-Brake-Switch on Score-Motor-Index-Wheel, Switch-D, the outmost blade does not touch the second blade when the motor is running. With this switch "Index-D" faulty: The pulling Reset-Relay quits pulling too early. Well, a theory is a theory - I assume You have faulty stepping on Coin-Unit))) Greetings Rolf

#13 10 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Klokkie
I agree with Wizardblom - the bakelite spacers in a switch can shrink and the screws may get loose --- a good article to read is the whole "2f.": http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean .
In post-10 You write "Extra-Step on Coin-Unit" - followed by "(so goes to player 2)". I have a problem in understanding - to me "going to player-2" means: The Williams-Player-Unit is stepped so player-2 plays the ball and makes points - faulty as the game has been started as a Single-Player-Game.
"mysterious-fault-A" - do You have an unwanted step on the Coin-Unit (Backglass shows "Two can Play") - or is it a "One can play game" but faulty player-2 gets the points of the first kicked-out ball ? When You start a new game (so You start a One-Player-Game) - and the mysterious-fault-A does not happen - You then press for "Two can play" - do You ever have faults showing up ?
Please do a test - play a ONE-Player-Game till Game-Over so the Score-Drums of Player-2, -3, -4 are all resetted / they all show Zero. Manually step on the Score-Drums of Player-1 - put exactly 00400 points on the Score-Drums of Player-1. Then start a new game - question: Does mysterious-fault-A happen ? (((see the schematics at "7-E" - I have the wacky theory: The Make-and-Brake-Switch on Score-Motor-Index-Wheel, Switch-D, the outmost blade does not touch the second blade when the motor is running. With this switch "Index-D" faulty: The pulling Reset-Relay quits pulling too early. Well, a theory is a theory - I assume You have faulty stepping on Coin-Unit))) Greetings Rolf

Hello Rolf,

I explain. When the machine is in Game-Over and i push the button to start a game the light for "one can play moves to two can play" and i only push the button ones . When i look in the cabinet i see the coin unit making one step.
What also is seen is that you see the coin relay activating and a split second later the reset relay is moving. There is a bit of a delay in the reset relay.

I will do the test tonight when back from work. I also will try to set up a GoPro camera and record what is happening ( hopefully it will work )

#14 6 days ago

I have been working on the Jackpot and had made some photo's to show what is happening. I made a video but that is to large to upload.I do try to explain what i did.
On picture 1 i did turn the power on, so the game-over relay goes to game-over
On picture 2 i did hit the reset button so the lock relay pulls on
on picture 3 i did hit the left button so the lights go on. You see that the game-over ( most left ) burns, that ball 1 lit burns and player 1 lit burns.
On picture 4 i did hit the "start a new game" button and you see that the game-over lit is out and the lit 1 can play jumps to 2 can play and cannot add an extra player anymore. When i hit the button to add a player no response.

I am lost to be honest.

I do have a video (251 MB) but do not know how to upload

foto 1 (resized).JPGfoto 2 (resized).JPGfoto 3 (resized).JPGfoto 4 (resized).JPG
#15 6 days ago

The coin unit should not step up on reset, but reset even if it is on one player.
It should not step to player two on reset of the machine.
Loop for the M&B contact on the reset relay (sw. E), the contact that is made resets the coin unit, the other contact is for the coin unit to step up and is closed after reset is complete.
Does the reset coil pull in on reset on the coin system?
Or does it step up?

#16 6 days ago

Can you place a picture of the reset relay?

#17 6 days ago

Hi Klokkie
toward the end of my post-12 I asked You to do a test --- what is the reaction of the pin ? When You do the test 2,3,4,5 times - do You always get the same reaction of the pin ? Greetings Rolf

#18 6 days ago

Hello Ronald,
Attached a picture from the reset relay

reset relay (resized).JPG
#19 6 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Klokkie
toward the end of my post-12 I asked You to do a test --- what is the reaction of the pin ? When You do the test 2,3,4,5 times - do You always get the same reaction of the pin ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,
When i put the game in game-over and all drum (16 ) are at zero, i do 00400 at the player drum and then do a restart the drum goes to zero but the player lit goes from 1 can play to 2 can play

#20 6 days ago

Hi Klokkie
I hope for luck - as the result of Your test supports my theory --- please do the same test - this time putting manually exactly 00800 to the Score-Drums - and the pins reaction ? Greetings Rolf

#21 6 days ago

Hi Klokkie
I forgot to ask You to also do a test with exactly 00500 Points on the Score-Drums. Greetings Rolf

#22 6 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Klokkie
I forgot to ask You to also do a test with exactly 00500 Points on the Score-Drums. Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf, Do you mean alone on the player 1 drum or also on the 2,3,4 player drums

#23 6 days ago

I am getting mad and did try already a lot of things and what also is happening ( not all the time ) is that when i push the button to start a new game is that the credit unit is NOT making a step back (from 20 to 19 credits)
But when the credit is stepping back , the light from "1 can play" goes to "2 can play" .

I did replaced the credit unit with a complete cleaned credit real but it is still happening.

#24 6 days ago

Hi Klokkie
just play a game till Game-Over - have the Score-Drums of player-2 and player-3 and player-4 all on Zero --- manually set the Score-Drums of player-1 to (00400) - do a test /// set to 00500 - do a test /// set to 00800 - do a test.
The theory I am after is: Having the drums to 00500 then do a start needs FIVE pulses from the turning Score-Motor to step the drum forward to Zero. Having the drums to 00400 then do a start needs SIX pulses from the turning Score-Motor. In ONE turn of 180 degrees the motor can fire maximum FIVE pulses --- doing the test 00400 therefore needs TWO turns of 180 degrees. When the Reset-Relay faulty drops out too early then the Coin-Unit can get an pulse to step-up.
This is my last post for today - time to go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#25 6 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Klokkie
just play a game till Game-Over - have the Score-Drums of player-2 and player-3 and player-4 all on Zero --- manually set the Score-Drums of player-1 to (00400) - do a test /// set to 00500 - do a test /// set to 00800 - do a test.
The theory I am after is: Having the drums to 00500 then do a start needs FIVE pulses from the turning Score-Motor to step the drum forward to Zero. Having the drums to 00400 then do a start needs SIX pulses from the turning Score-Motor. In ONE turn of 180 degrees the motor can fire maximum FIVE pulses --- doing the test 00400 therefore needs TWO turns of 180 degrees. When the Reset-Relay faulty drops out too early then the Coin-Unit can get an pulse to step-up.
This is my last post for today - time to go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

I got your point and sound logic. I will check.

#26 5 days ago

For the credit unit, look if the end peg is not at the wrong side of the wheel.
Unscrew it, step it back by hand until the wheel is under 18 credits en screw it back again.

#27 5 days ago
Quoted from wizardblom:

For the credit unit, look if the end peg is not at the wrong side of the wheel.
Unscrew it, step it back by hand until the wheel is under 18 credits en screw it back again.

Hello Ronald,

I do not understand you. I have 2 thin poles on the copper looking wheel. Is this what you mean.

#28 5 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Klokkie
just play a game till Game-Over - have the Score-Drums of player-2 and player-3 and player-4 all on Zero --- manually set the Score-Drums of player-1 to (00400) - do a test /// set to 00500 - do a test /// set to 00800 - do a test.
The theory I am after is: Having the drums to 00500 then do a start needs FIVE pulses from the turning Score-Motor to step the drum forward to Zero. Having the drums to 00400 then do a start needs SIX pulses from the turning Score-Motor. In ONE turn of 180 degrees the motor can fire maximum FIVE pulses --- doing the test 00400 therefore needs TWO turns of 180 degrees. When the Reset-Relay faulty drops out too early then the Coin-Unit can get an pulse to step-up.
This is my last post for today - time to go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

Did a test.

Only on the player 1 drums, all others at zero.

When set at 00400 and hit the button to start a game the drum rotates 180 degrees and stops. The lit goes from 1 can play to 2 can play.
When set at 00500 and hit the button to start a game the drum rotates 360 degrees and stops. The lit goes from 1 can play to 2 can play.
When set at 00800 and hit the button to start a game the drum rotates 360 degrees and stops. The lit goes from 1 can play to 2 can play.

Hope that this helps with the analyse

#29 4 days ago

Hi Klokkie
thanks for doing the tests --- I am surprised / perplex. At the moment I do not have an idea - lets both of us look at the JPB - "what happens in a functioning Jackpot" - We start a new game - ... Coin-Relay pulls in and establishes Self-Hold-Circuitry, the pulling Coin-Relay closes switch "my red 1" and closes switch "my 2" - the motor (my 3) starts to run. The Game-Over-Relay is tripped, switch "my 4" is closed - the Reset-Relay (my 5) pulls in and establishes Self-Hold-Circuitry "my 6,7,8" --- the running motor actuates "my A1 and B1" five times in a turn of 180 degrees - the pulsing relays (my A2, B2) make the Score-Drums to reset. The Coin-Relay is pulling and the Reset-Relay is pulling and the motor is turning - through "my 1, 8, 10" the Coin-Unit-Reset (my 11) fires.
Towards the end of the turn of 180 degrees the "my brown star" Switch in SCM-5A opens, Coin-Relay quits pulling and so switch "my 1" opens. The Score-Drums may need more pulses to completely reset - the pulling Reset-Relay through "my red star" make the motor to do another turn of 180 degrees - nothing can happen as switch "my 1" is open.

My theory was "the motor makes another turn, the Coin-Relay is faulty still pulling, the Reset-Relay faulty drops out too early due to faulty "my 8" open switch --- through "my 1, 9" and the switch on the no longer pulling reset-Relay (my blue star): The Coin-Unit faulty steps up.

Klokkie - do You have some 24VAC Test-Lights we can hook-up as shown in the lower right corner of the JPG - then taking the Test-Light near the Score-Motor and look at "exactly what moment in the turn of the motor does the Coin-Unit faulty step up". Greetings Rolf

0Jackpot-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#30 3 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

My theory was "the motor makes another turn, the Coin-Relay is faulty still pulling, the Reset-Relay faulty drops out too early due to faulty "my 8" open switch --- through "my 1, 9" and the switch on the no longer pulling reset-Relay (my blue star): The Coin-Unit faulty steps up.
Klokkie - do You have some 24VAC Test-Lights we can hook-up as shown in the lower right corner of the JPG - then taking the Test-Light near the Score-Motor and look at "exactly what moment in the turn of the motor does the Coin-Unit faulty step up". Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Hi Rolf,

Thank you for the explanation, it is clear.
I do not have a test light but will make a set up and do the test. I will try to make a little movie from it when i have the set up made( if i can manage that ).
Hans

#31 3 days ago

Hi Rolf,

I did a test with the volt measuring device as test unit instead of a lamp , when there was a signal the meter reacts. Your nr 9 ( in the diagram ) on the score motor seemed to be wrong and sometimes made contact and sometimes not.
I disasembled the package of switches from the score motor and checked the switch. I looked very good how much distance the switch blades had in comperison with the other switch blades and it had a very small distances and it looked that it sometimes made contact.

When i had the blades on a good distance from eachother the problem was solved and the Jackpot resets all drums to zero and does a not made an extra step.

What now only is going wrong when i start a new game and push the start new game button evrything goes well and the "1 can play"mode is on but when i hit the next time the button to get "2 can play"mode there is nothing happening. What can be this, it is the final issue to get it 100% working.

The playfield is working 100% , so happy to get so far with all help from you guys.

I will make a movie and see if it is possible to upload it somewhere to share

#32 3 days ago

Hi Hans
I do not want to destroy Your happiness (partially fixing a fault) - when You adjust the switch (my red 9) too much so it is faulty ALWAYS open: The fault "faulty stepping-up the Coin-Unit" does not show up - but other stuff now does not functions. See to the right of "my red 9": The Replay-Unit-Reset-Coil must fire (taking away a replay from the Replay-Counter) - does this functions after You have adjusted "my red 9" switch ?
You and I we live in the same time-zone - for me it is late, I go to sleep. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#33 2 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Hans
I do not want to destroy Your happiness (partially fixing a fault) - when You adjust the switch (my red 9) too much so it is faulty ALWAYS open: The fault "faulty stepping-up the Coin-Unit" does not show up - but other stuff now does not functions. See to the right of "my red 9": The Replay-Unit-Reset-Coil must fire (taking away a replay from the Replay-Counter) - does this functions after You have adjusted "my red 9" switch ?
You and I we live in the same time-zone - for me it is late, I go to sleep. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

No the replay unit is not stepping down always , it has the same issue of not being consequent . Sometimes it works and sometimes not but when it did work then i had ( 90% of the time ) the issue with the step up of the coin unit. Sometimes it worked and the coin unit did not step up . This is solved.

After the switch adjustment the coin unit works fine and i have no more the issue going to " 2 can play ".

Now i cannot go to " 2 or 3 or 4 can play " if i want to so i think it is in a connection with the replay counter, it looks it does not fire. Also when i start with "1 can play "

#34 2 days ago

Hi Hans
we press the Replay-Button to "NG - start a new game for one player with all the resetting stuff" --- or to "AP - add a second or third or forth player to the game".
The beginning of "NG" and "AP" is the same - see the JPG - The Reset-Relay does not pull (does it pull in YOUR pin ?) so switch "my red 1" is closed, the motor is not running so "my 2" is closed, we close the Replay-Button (my 3), there are Credits on the Replay-Counter so "my 4" is closed, when at least one of the switches "5,6,7,8 is closed: The "9" fires and through "10" the "11" is activated --- the "9" and the "11" have Self-Hold-Current, stay pulling until in the end of the one turn of 180 degrees the motor-switch "13" cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry and the "9" and the "11" quit pulling. You always can cheat a bit - forcing - You manually actuate the armature on "9" or on "11" - BUT: Wear rubber gloves for insulation as 24VAC can kill people.

The "5 6 7 8": When the game before has ended normal (reaching Game-Over): The "6" is closed. As all the balls have been played in the game before: The "7" is closed. Has the game before been a ONE-Player-Game: The "8" is open - has the game before been a 2,3,4 -Player-Game: The "8" is closed. Has the game before been a 1,2,3 -Player game: The "5" is closed - has the game before been a 4-Player game: The "5" is open. We can cheat, force - we manually activate the ("9") Replay-Relay and the Coin-Relay must pull-in and the motor must run and the Replay-Relay and the Coin-Relay must stay pulling for the one turn of 180 degrees of the Score-Motor.
Attention: When we do an "NG" - during start-up / resetting: The "5" is made closed as the Coin-Unit is made to reset, the "6 7 8" are made open.

Try this manually activating - write about - we then will have another look at the JPG in post-29. Greetings Rolf

0Jackpot-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#35 1 day ago

Check the end switch on the coin unit, it should open after the fourth player is added.
Close it and it will work like it should (I think)

#36 1 day ago
Quoted from wizardblom:

Check the end switch on the coin unit, it should open after the fourth player is added.
Close it and it will work like it should (I think)

Hoi Ronald,

It is open now so it cannot step up that is what you mean i guess

#37 21 hours ago

Exactly, it should open on the fourth player, preventing you from "overcoining" the game.
Or in a worst case scenario "paying out" free games...
In the days it was played on coins...

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