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(Topic ID: 266511)

SOLVED Indiana Jones (Williams) “lites hand of fate” not illuminating


By orlandu81

6 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 30 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by orlandu81
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 6 months ago

Hello Pinside!

I recently got my second pin (IJ Williams) and it arrived needing a bit of work. I noticed it was very dark...so I traced the issue back to the J120 and J121 IDC connectors which were totally fried! I got some new (and better) connectors and re-pinned them and the GI and back lights were restored.

However...I noticed that 2 of the playfield lights are not lighting up. Specifically, both the R and L "lites hands of fate" GI lights which are supposed to stay illuminated on ball 1 and I believe once you get INDY. I checked the IDC at J119 and it is super clean, no loose wires, no visual issues on the male or female connectors. I checked the wires for thes groups of lights and the wires are clean running back and forth to each other, but seem to make their way to the coin door? The lite hands of fate illumination seems to be a bit unique...as it is on the illumination PCB but has a 3 prong IDC to connect it to the other side before heading to the front of the machine.

What do you guys think? I stumbled across this thread but there was no official solution posted.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wms-ij-lites-hand-of-fate-insert-question

I have checked the fuses, all are good.
I have reseated all ribbon cables.
I have fully inspected under the playfield, all wiring is clean.
I pushed in all EPROMs to ensure they are snug.
I have pushed in the ASIC chip.
I cannot get the lights to illuminate in test mode either, I believe it is supposed to be in the GI menu under coin return.

Any advice is highly appreciated, thank you!

Edit 4/27/2020: Changed the header pins at both J120 and J121 and the lights were restored. Back in business!

#3 6 months ago

If it’s just a few you might have a break in the wiring under the playfield. Also check fuses. If it’s all flashers push in the ASIC chip on the MPU. If that gets loose it can do weird stuff. My flashers were out on my NBA Fastbreak and a friend told me this trick.

#4 6 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Have you checked the fuses?

I changed the one that is linked to “flashers” but no other ones. I guess I’ll just check the others with the multimeter and eliminate that possibility next. Thanks!

#5 6 months ago
Quoted from 22troy:

If it’s just a few you might have a break in the wiring under the playfield. Also check fuses. If it’s all flashers push in the ASIC chip on the MPU. If that gets loose it can do weird stuff. My flashers were out on my NBA Fastbreak and a friend told me this trick.

I’ll try all of these today, thank you!

#6 6 months ago

Is the coin door closed?

#7 6 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Is the coin door closed?

Yes, the game will not work if the door is open and when the door is closed the game operates. Just missing that batch of lights.

#8 6 months ago

Reseat the ribbon cables - had 4 flashers go out on my ToTAN, reseated cables, back in business.

#9 6 months ago

Hello Everyone!

Thank you for your advice, I spent more than 5 hours working on the pin today. It wasn’t only troubleshooting...I installed plastic protectors, LEDs, cleaned the playfield, reflowed solder and cleaned up dirty connections. Just waiting for Cliffys.

In any case, the problem still persists and I’ve done the following troubleshooting steps:

1- checked all fuses, all are good.
2- reseated all ribbon cables.
3- fully inspected under the playfield, all wiring is clean.
4- I pushed in all EPROMs to ensure they are snug.
5- I pushed in the ASIC chip.

I’m thinking something on the driver board or the connector previously mentioned. If I look at the screenshot of the manual, note that for the flashers that have only a playfield designation (Special, hurry up, lite bonus, etc I’ve NEVER seen them light up). But the other ones that have both the playfield and backbox designation I only see them light up if I trigger them during gameplay. They do NOT light up during attract. This must be significant, right? I know I’m so close to fixing this...just need a couple more ideas I haven’t tried yet. Thanks in advance!

David

#10 6 months ago

Did you push in the ASIC chip? Here it is circled in red. Board should be on the left in the backbox.

D630BBE4-24C6-4C05-ADB3-2C57D1285588 (resized).jpeg
#11 6 months ago
Quoted from 22troy:

Did you push in the ASIC chip? Here it is circled in red. Board should be on the left in the backbox.

I did yes, no change. Most of the flashers do work, just a small group of flashers under the playfield do not turn on at all, as well as the "lite jackpot" above the playfield. They are all part of the same connector on the driver board, so the plan is to change that connector once it arrives in the mail...even though it looks clean. Once I do that I will be out of ideas...

#12 6 months ago

Broken or disconnected wire somewhere? I believe all the flashlamps are on a single circuit. So if some are working and others are not, might look at each socket for a broken wire on a solder lug.

#13 6 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Broken or disconnected wire somewhere? I believe all the flashlamps are on a single circuit. So if some are working and others are not, might look at each socket for a broken wire on a solder lug.

Not that i can see but will look again.

#14 6 months ago

Quick update...and I updated the original post with the update info.

In short, All of the flashers that I thought were not working actually are working...they just only come on when I am having a good game and are not part of the attract mode. However, 2 lights still appear to not be working as they should.

Both "lite hands of fate" - these are always off but should be on at the start of the game and toggle on and off depending on if you spell out INDY.

I checked the wiring underneath and it is clean...I guess it is possible that the component on the illumination PCB that powers the lite hands of fate bulbs is defective, unfortunately I cannot see the other side of the pcb without removing it. Anyone else have this issue before? I found the below help post about the same issue from 7 years ago but with no solution

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wms-ij-lites-hand-of-fate-insert-question

Next step - I will change the connector at J119!

#15 6 months ago

You can test every lamp and flasher in test mode in Diagnostics. Do they work there?

#16 6 months ago
Quoted from pintechev:

You can test every lamp and flasher in test mode in Diagnostics. Do they work there?

The special flashers work in test mode so I guess I just haven't earned the right to see them light up during gameplay.

I can't seem to get the "lite hands of fate" bulbs to light up in the test menu but will keep trying, the other thread had said it was part of coin return.

#17 6 months ago

Hand of Fate lamps are wired together and are actually part of the GI circuit and not part of the lamp matrix. They connect to the white-violet and violet pair of J121 on the driver board. Like all GI, they are controlled by a triac on the driver board... which is controlled by the CPU. The test for these lamps is in the GI menu "Return Lane/Coin". The wiring is a direct shot from the driver board to the lamp on the left lane...the lamp on the right lane is part of the lamp board... you'll see there is a .156 3 position connector on that board right next to the lamp... that feeds that one bulb (white-violet, violet pair) and that connector is wired to the bulb on the left lane.

Can you control any of your GI?

#18 6 months ago
Quoted from Ricochet:

Hand of Fate lamps are wired together and are actually part of the GI circuit and not part of the lamp matrix. They connect to the white-violet and violet pair of J120 on the driver board. Like all GI, they are controlled by a triac on the driver board... which is controlled by the CPU. The test for these lamps is in the GI menu "Return Lane/Coin". The wiring is a direct shot from the driver board to the lamp on the left lane...the lamp on the right lane is part of the lamp board... you'll see there is a .156 3 position connector on that board right next to the lamp... that feeds that one bulb (white-violet, violet pair) and that connector is wired to the bulb on the left lane.
Can you control any of your GI?

Thanks for the note! Yes I discovered all of this last night about the connection and everything looks clean in those areas, but originally the lamp housing on that circuit was loose and I resoldered it on when i was doing the LEDs but that didn’t fix the issue...but yes i can control the GI during test mode and those two lights (Lite hand of fate) do not illuminate at all during the test mode, even though i can dim and adjust the entire GI group.

#19 6 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

Thanks for the note! Yes I discovered all of this last night about the connection and everything looks clean in those areas, but originally the lamp housing on that circuit was loose and I resoldered it on when i was doing the LEDs but that didn’t fix the issue...but yes i can control the GI during test mode and those two lights (Lite hand of fate) do not illuminate at all during the test mode, even though i can dim and adjust the entire GI group.

J121 GI housing look good? Pins 6 and 11 ? J121 header on the driver board look good? No heat damage, cold/cracked solder?

#20 6 months ago
Quoted from Ricochet:

J121 GI housing look good? Pins 6 and 11 ? J121 header on the driver board look good? No heat damage, cold/cracked solder?

J121 Connector on the driver board (and 120) were fully fried when i got the pin, which caused the entire GI to be out. I repinned it a few days ago and now it works great. Only issue left is with the lite hands of fate, isn’t that at J119 though? I plan to repin that one next even though the connector looks clean.

#21 6 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

J121 Connector on the driver board (and 120) were fully fried when i got the pin, which caused the entire GI to be out. I repinned it a few days ago and now it works great. Only issue left is with the lite hands of fate, isn’t that at J119 though? I plan to repin that one next even though the connector looks clean.

Check continuity from the tip of the pin to tip of pin on respective headers of J120/J121 (J120/J121 are in parallel). For example run continuity from the tip of pin J120-1 to the tip of pin J121-1. What you are looking for is the plated through hole from the trace on the back-side of the board to be broken from when the header was removed. You may also have to run continuity from J120 back to the SCR center pin (5 large heat sink looking things near the fuses lower left of the board). Pretty common for that to happen if not removed correctly. Obviously best to do with the PDB out of the game.

I believe J119 just runs to the coin door coin slot lights.

#22 6 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

J121 Connector on the driver board (and 120) were fully fried when i got the pin, which caused the entire GI to be out. I repinned it a few days ago and now it works great. Only issue left is with the lite hands of fate, isn’t that at J119 though? I plan to repin that one next even though the connector looks clean.

Nope... most definitely J121/J120, even though they originate from the same point on the driver board... it is delivered via J121/J120 to the playfield.
gi (resized).png

#23 6 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Check continuity from the tip of the pin to tip of pin on respective headers of J120/J121 (J120/J121 are in parallel). For example run continuity from the tip of pin J120-1 to the tip of pin J121-1. What you are looking for is the plated through hole from the trace on the back-side of the board to be broken from when the header was removed. You may also have to run continuity from J120 back to the SCR center pin (5 large heat sink looking things near the fuses lower left of the board). Pretty common for that to happen if not removed correctly. Obviously best to do with the PDB out of the game.
I believe J119 just runs to the coin door coin slot lights.

Thank you! This is very helpful. I should point out that the connectors I re-pinned were the female ends (harness side) not on the driver board itself. The male connectors on the driver board looked good from the front (but obviously I didn’t check the back). Sounds like you are saying that lite hands of fate should be operational if J120 and J121 connections are working...so I guess that means I could have a damaged J120 or J121 male connector on the board from when the female connectors got fried. I’ll do the continuity tests and report back. See pic for what I originally discovered when the GI was out. I definitely repinned it cleanly, I just double checked. I was hoping to get away with no issues on the driver board but apparently that is not the case. Luckily the lite hands of fate lights are not too important in the meantime
24BE4E3B-B2D4-4326-8B04-B64A46141023 (resized).jpeg

#24 6 months ago

J120 & J121 pins on the driver board are fried. The headers need replaced.

#25 6 months ago
Quoted from Billc479:

J120 & J121 pins on the driver board are fried. The headers need replaced.

This seems to be the consensus at the moment...but all other GI that was previously not working is now working since I repinned the female connectors at J120 and J121. Maybe I can get lucky and use a wire brush on the pins to remove any remnants before removing the entire driver board and replacing those two male connectors on the pcb.

One other thing to point out...the bulb housing for the "lite hand of fate" was very loose upon initial inspection a few days ago (when I was putting LEDs on the entire game). It literally popped off in my hand...but looked clean. So I resoldered it back on to the illumination board under the playfield but obviously that didn't fix it. Is it possible that simply a bad housing (which is then linked to the other lite hand of fate housing) is causing this issue? I am trying to do everything else first before having to remove the driver board.

#26 6 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

This seems to be the consensus at the moment...but all other GI that was previously not working is now working since I repinned the female connectors at J120 and J121. Maybe I can get lucky and use a wire brush on the pins to remove any remnants before removing the entire driver board and replacing those two male connectors on the pcb.
One other thing to point out...the bulb housing for the "lite hand of fate" was very loose upon initial inspection a few days ago (when I was putting LEDs on the entire game). It literally popped off in my hand...but looked clean. So I resoldered it back on to the illumination board under the playfield but obviously that didn't fix it. Is it possible that simply a bad housing (which is then linked to the other lite hand of fate housing) is causing this issue? I am trying to do everything else first before having to remove the driver board.

LEDs are notorious for being finicky in the sockets. When I rebuilt my Indy ... both lamps didn’t work. They both needed to be re-seated.

Those lamps should always be on in attract mode. Put your meter across the terminals and see if you have voltage.

#27 6 months ago

ricochet schudel5 22troy pintechev Thank you all for your input it was very helpful in my learning process on pinball machines, I've learned a lot with this pin so far and have fixed everything to date except this dam "lite hands of fate light". Over the next week I will try the following and report back (hopefully with it being fixed!):

1 - Test continuity around the housings to the driver board and determine where there is lost power
2 - Remove the illumination board under the playfield to see if the lite hand of fate housing is damaged on the other side, and will reflow the solder at those points.
3 - Finally, when I build up enough courage, I will remove the driver board and install new headers at J120 and J121 (this will probably fix the issue).

#28 6 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

ricochet schudel5 22troy pintechev Thank you all for your input it was very helpful in my learning process on pinball machines, I've learned a lot with this pin so far and have fixed everything to date except this dam "lite hands of fate light". Over the next week I will try the following and report back (hopefully with it being fixed!):
1 - Test continuity around the housings to the driver board and determine where there is lost power
2 - Remove the illumination board under the playfield to see if the lite hand of fate housing is damaged on the other side, and will reflow the solder at those points.
3 - Finally, when I build up enough courage, I will remove the driver board and install new headers at J120 and J121 (this will probably fix the issue).

Removal of the driver board is less daunting than it actually looks. Everything will pretty much stay in its relative place when disconnected. Good Luck!

1 week later
#29 5 months ago
Quoted from Ricochet:

Removal of the driver board is less daunting than it actually looks. Everything will pretty much stay in its relative place when disconnected. Good Luck!

Good call, it wasn't as bad as I thought as it would be. I labelled all the wires so my forgetful ass could make the reconnect dummy proof. Changed the header pins at J120 and J121 and now the lights are back on so all is good in the world again.

Thank you and thank everyone who chimed in to help me with this issue!

#30 5 months ago
Quoted from orlandu81:

Good call, it wasn't as bad as I thought as it would be. I labelled all the wires so my forgetful ass could make the reconnect dummy proof. Changed out the header pins at J120 and J121 and the lights are back on so all is good in the world again.
Thank you and thank everyone who chimed in to help me with this issue!

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