(Topic ID: 203322)

Williams in Gottlieb Soundboard


By Batcade

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 43 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Inkochnito
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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defender_2.pdf (PDF preview)
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Williams_System-6-7_Sound-Board_schematic.pdf (PDF preview)
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#1 2 years ago

Hi All,
Trying to figure out where the speaker wires connect to the sound board in my 1980 Gottlieb Spiderman. I've been wondering why my board doesn't look like the pictures I have seen online and in the manual (shaped differently, has fuses???). I noticed there are a few stickers on it that says "Williams". Does this make sense? Did Williams produce sound boards for Gottlieb pinball? Or did someone stick in a Williams board hoping it would work?

#2 2 years ago

Nope, Williams never produced boards for Gottlieb.
Post an image of your sound board....

#3 2 years ago

Been trying to figure out how to wire it as manual shows only one connector. It’s definately a Williams board from 1980 same year as Spidey, the question is why would somebody put that in a Gottlieb :/

F0F30977-2EED-4265-B2F2-828B2A6EA90C (resized).jpeg

#4 2 years ago

Yeah, that's wrong.

I'm guessing someone had a missing or non-working gottlieb sound board and tried to shoehorn this williams sound board into the game just to get the speakers to spit out something.

#5 2 years ago

I’m nicknaming it Franken-pin while I source out a proper board

#6 2 years ago

Also be sure correct the wiring and connectors so you can actually install that new board.

Keep in mind that the sound board used in spiderman is notorious for chip failure, and the chips are unobtainable. So be wary of untested sound boards on ebay and whatnot.

Here's an aftermarket replacement:

http://www.flippp.fr/pifx.php

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Also be sure correct the wiring and connectors so you can actually install that new board.
Keep in mind that the sound board used in spiderman is notorious for chip failure, and the chips are unobtainable. So be wary of untested sound boards on ebay and whatnot.
Here's an aftermarket replacement:
http://www.flippp.fr/pifx.php

Great thank you!
Do you happen to know of a wiring guide for the electrical? There are two electrical cables that have been spliced for some reason in the backbox which I haven’t traced back yet but I was surprised to see electrical wiring there instead of carrying power via 12pin or 24pin or whatever they may be to the boards.. one wire they taped up, one wire they didn’t lol

0BE2E2AC-7D78-47B9-9CCF-8BE5F114488A (resized).jpeg

#8 2 years ago

hah that is awesome actually.

gtb sunk inputs low to trigger sounds. If you could figure out a decode pattern and sound ROM that made sense in the GTB game... why not!

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Batcade:

Great thank you!
Do you happen to know of a wiring guide for the electrical? There are two electrical cables that have been spliced for some reason in the backbox which I haven’t traced back yet but I was surprised to see electrical wiring there instead of carrying power via 12pin or 24pin or whatever they may be to the boards.. one wire they taped up, one wire they didn’t lol

In my experience with Gottlieb, you will need the schematics that will show you the wiring. The schematics may be online somewhere, but most likely you will have to buy them, unless someone here has them an will show you the way

#10 2 years ago

That looks like it may be a Williams system 6 sound board. I think it was also used in some video games. I'm rebuilding a blackout and it looks like the same board. If it is and you don't have plans for it I could use a spare.

Robert

#11 2 years ago

To make a Williams board work you need to have 12Vac at J1-1/2 and J1-8/9.
You also need ground at J1-5/6.

An 8 ohm speaker at J2-1/2 and J2-3/4.
A remote volume controller at J4-1 and J4-2.
Grounding pins J3-2/3/4/5/6/7/8 should produce sounds.
All kinds of combinations are possible, like grounding pin 2-4-5 should give an other sound than grounding pin 2.

In theory the machine should be able to drive the sound board if the Gottlieb driver board grounds the outputs.
It will just give the wroung sounds.

Williams_System-6-7_Sound-Board_schematic.pdf

#12 2 years ago

It's that exposed "line cord" that has me concerned. It may have been there to power the 12VAC transformer mentioned by Inkochnito (now apparently missing). If so, it has 120VAC exposed on it and needs to be capped.

All early generation sound boards worked in a similar fashion, originally being adapted to use the 3 or so drives that used to drive bell chimes.

At one point, Gottlieb expanded on this by incorporating a leaf switch on the game over relay and tilt relays to select a different subset if normal game noises.

Your board, featuring the video sound rom, probably worked to some degree and more than likely made sounds like Defender.

I would check across those two exposed line cord wires (with the green one in the middle and see if you have 120AC or maybe 12VAC center tapped there.

#13 2 years ago

The connector on the left is where 12Vac comes in. The one next to it is the speaker output. The one next to that with bare remenents of wire is where a volume control would attach. The sound trigger inputs have already been spliced into the Gottlieb harness.i see two clipped wires peering out near the bottom center if the loom. Those might match up to being the speaker wires (isn't the speaker in to top of that game?)

I see there is a "flat" style (2 black plus green) line cord and a round style (wht/blk/green) that have been added. You may find one was used to add the external volume control and one spliced into 12VAC on the bottom tray.

A photo of the bottom tray would help with more of the Franken-pin mystery.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The connector on the left is where 12Vac comes in. The one next to it is the speaker output. The one next to that with bare remenents of wire is where a volume control would attach. The sound trigger inputs have already been spliced into the Gottlieb harness.i see two clipped wires peering out near the bottom center if the loom. Those might match up to being the speaker wires (isn't the speaker in to top of that game?)
I see there is a "flat" style (2 black plus green) line cord and a round style (wht/blk/green) that have been added. You may find one was used to add the external volume control and one spliced into 12VAC on the bottom tray.
A photo of the bottom tray would help with more of the Franken-pin mystery.

Thanks for the information everyone. I plan on tracing back the exposed electrical wires this weekend so I will post pictures of the underside of where these are going.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

It's that exposed "line cord" that has me concerned. It may have been there to power the 12VAC transformer mentioned by Inkochnito (now apparently missing). If so, it has 120VAC exposed on it and needs to be capped.
All early generation sound boards worked in a similar fashion, originally being adapted to use the 3 or so drives that used to drive bell chimes.
At one point, Gottlieb expanded on this by incorporating a leaf switch on the game over relay and tilt relays to select a different subset if normal game noises.
Your board, featuring the video sound rom, probably worked to some degree and more than likely made sounds like Defender.
I would check across those two exposed line cord wires (with the green one in the middle and see if you have 120AC or maybe 12VAC center tapped there.

This is very interesting and what I was concerned about and what confused me. It looks like the intent was those electrical lines to provide power to the sound board but not connected into any kind of transformer or regulator.

The speaker is in the top of the machine and my guess is the two speaker wires match to the two wires dangling off the second port of the sound bard. Ultimately I would like to get that aftermarket sound board from flippp.fr and hook it up the way it is supposed to be but my primary concern is to make it safe and disconnect any unused electrical wires and make sure it is grounded (ground pin is broken off the line cord and I saw one of the green ground cables not connected to the big transformer), anyhoo pictures will follow.

#16 2 years ago

So the round wire that is taped off in the backbox is being routed to the volume switch, and the flat wire is being routed to a box underneath the play field and then looks like being split off of that into the big transformer (with the ground green wire disconnected).

Anyone know what that grey box is, I don’t see it listed on the schematic I have.

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#17 2 years ago

The gray box is just an encased transformer. So, more than likely the source for 12vac. But the board requires 12v center tapped (12-0-12). So there should be all 3 wires used.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The gray box is just an encased transformer. So, more than likely the source for 12vac. But the board requires 12v center tapped (12-0-12). So there should be all 3 wires used.

That rear gray transformer looks like an isolation transformer used for games that were routed in Canada.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

That rear gray transformer looks like an isolation transformer used for games that were routed in Canada.

That's possible too, but it almost looks undersized to handle the whole game (isolation).

Next, I guess we need a photo of any markings on it to determine it's purpose.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

That's possible too, but it almost looks undersized to handle the whole game (isolation).
Next, I guess we need a photo of any markings on it to determine it's purpose.

Thanks for your feedback everyone, its much appreciated. My understanding so far is that isolation transformer is there to provide the 12vdc to the Williams sound board. My feeling is that this is new to the machine as system 80 would normally just have the two transformers (it does look newer too compared to the ones with the layered tin exposed).

I will get some better pictures of it and where the wires are going.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

That's possible too, but it almost looks undersized to handle the whole game (isolation).
Next, I guess we need a photo of any markings on it to determine it's purpose.

Okay I got a better look at the transformer, It's a F83A. Some of the writing is worn off, but based on some other pictures I saw online, it is outputting 12.6V (how do you tell if it's A/C or D/C?..I'm assuming it will be A/C since that is what the williams board needed but how would you know?)

The green, green/yellow and I'm assuming blue(can't see that wire) are what is taped up and mated to the black flat electrical cable which is being sent up to the backbox. Assuming I can figure out which one is positive/negative, how do I tell how they connect to the sound board? Only two wires come out of the sound board, I assume I need 3 as the ground wire should connect as well?

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#22 2 years ago

Here is a crude drawing of how you need to hook up what you have. Also, a more legible print of the transformer you have. Technically, AC is not polarized so you don't need to worry about which of the wires goes to which fuse. The critical one is the Center Tap (CT) Green/Yellow wire as it has to go to ground (10J1 pins 5 or 6). And, a Transformer's output is Always AC until you put it through some diodes/rectifiers.

tp-f83A_2_lg (resized).jpg

FrankenWire2 (resized).JPG

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Here is a crude drawing of how you need to hook up what you have. Also, a more legible print of the transformer you have. Technically, AC is not polarized so you don't need to worry about which of the wires goes to which fuse. The critical one is the Center Tap (CT) Green/Yellow wire as it has to go to ground (10J1 pins 5 or 6). And, a Transformer's output is Always AC until you put it through some diodes/rectifiers.

Awesome, thank you!! This will let me at least try and boot it up and see if it plays

#24 2 years ago

I'll be interested to hear how this works out. It is an interesting "fix" to a problem.

4 weeks later
#25 2 years ago

Well, I haven't had a chance to actually test the sound board. I wanted to make sure the game actually boots before spending time on the sound, so for now I have capped off the live 12vac and sure enough I have boot issues.

My F7 1/4a fuse kept blowing at startup when all displays are connected. P3 and P4 displays light up, but P1, P2 and credit display doesn't light up at all. I Have created a new thread for this issue, if anyone has any ideas on how I can begin trouble shooting it would be much appreciated.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtb-amazing-spiderman-displays-blowing-f7-fuse#post-4148381

#26 2 years ago

Batcade... just found this earlier thread.

My Spider-Man has a large transformer on the very back of the box. Larger and older. Makes the machine weigh a ton!

Mine is from a Canadian arcade originally. Would like to know more about the isolation transformers and what they are for. If it is an isolation transformer, maybe yours had an older one that died and was replaced with the newer grey one; Does it look like there was anything in the very back of the box... old stain or screw holes?

Given how prior owner used power cord to wire the volume rheostat they likely had limited wiring available and just used whatever they could find.

Are you sure the flat cord is going to the grey transformer ? Or just stuck in the bundle and really going to the diode bridge or fuse panel somewhere.

Another possibility... given that you seem to have 12v problems on your power board, is it possible they were trying to add or find another 12v source?

Is that grey transformer typical in a Williams machine and they just hacked it into the power lines just to provide the same power to the Williams soundcard? Maybe it's not an isolation transformer at all.

If the GTB already had 12V ac and dc, you may not need to source the power from that transformer if it's not an isolation transformer and they just added it to supply the Williams board.

Can you still contact the last owner to see what the history on the transformer and Williams sound board is?

#27 2 years ago

This does look like what I have in my Spider-Man.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/isolation-transformer#ctop

Yours is not 120v.. so they must have been trying to add or replace your existing 12v supply. Maybe your original transformer was toasted or some of the surrounding circuitry was damaged.

#28 2 years ago

In your photo of the volume control, stuff looks sketchy around your 12v diode bridge (things added?) and the top of capacitor c1 looks like corrosion. Both are on the 12v power stuff. Could be just clarity of photo, but prior owner may have had problems with 12v supply and was trying to replace it with another transformer. As stated in the thread though, the new transformer would only supply 12V AC and you'd need to run it through a diode bridge to get the DC. Maybe they were in mid-fix and bailed on it. Do you have a better view of the 12v diode bridge and cap or tell us how they look?

IMG_0964 (resized).JPG

IMG_0964 (resized).JPG

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

It's that exposed "line cord" that has me concerned. It may have been there to power the 12VAC transformer mentioned by Inkochnito (now apparently missing).
Your board, featuring the video sound rom, probably worked to some degree and more than likely made sounds like Defender.
I would check across those two exposed line cord wires (with the green one in the middle and see if you have 120AC or maybe 12VAC center tapped there.

Sound Rom 1 is associated with Defender (and a few other WMS Pins and Video Games).

BTW. Those boards do NOT have to run on 12VAC (from a Defender wiring diagram)
defender_2.pdf

In WMS video games, they had +12VDC, -12VDC (unregulated) and +5VDC (regulated) inputs on plug 10J1 in place of using 12VAC.

#30 2 years ago

srcdube I will get back to you on some of your questions. From what I see my feeling is the transformers intended purpose is to supply 12vac to the Williams sound board. From the schematics it looks like this is needed because the gtb 12vac supply is rectified to 12vdc as required by A2 and A5 boards... I guess no way to split off the 12vac into two spots?

The orange capacitor definitely needs to go, but my plan is to do some testing and only replace the stuff I need to right now. I’ll post more about the transformer, I haven’t noticed any other transformers which is strange since I’m in Canada too but who knows maybe this thing came from the states.

The isolation transformer you have, is it designed to replace the two normal coiled transformers?

#31 2 years ago

Now you got me curious so I’ve been googling isolation transformer, and I don’t think mine is an isolation transformer, just a regular transformer.

#32 2 years ago

In theory, ANY transformer (other than some simple "tap" transformers) is an Isolation transformer as it electrically isolates the input current from the output. But most would consider an isolation transformer to be one that has the same input (main line) voltage as it does an output. IE 120 -> 120 or 240 -> 240.

While I am not that well versed on CES, I would assume that an Isolation transformer would be added in the case where line voltage were to appear anyplace other than at the transformer or power distribution assembly (120V coils, fans, etc.). However, in compliance with UL 22 requirement, Gottlieb/Premier installed a safety interlock switch on the front door to disconnect line voltage should a "non-qualified personnel" were to enter the cabinet where voltages higher than 48VDC were present. Some early 70's Gottliebs also had a small microswitch added just under the lock down bar receiver which disconnected the AC line voltage from the transformer. Thereby killing all power to the game (other than the AC wiring which lead up to the switch and at the transformer and main line fuse).

Isolation can also be a way to pass Hi-Pot testing where extremely high voltage is applied to the joined line cord inputs and then the cabinet is checked for leakage to any exposed metal or from line voltage inputs to earth ground. Only a certain amount is allowed. Adding a good isolation transformer solves any shortcomings.

Sometimes, what you might think is an isolation transformer is actually a step up or step down transformer to convert the operating voltage to that of the local line voltage. Although many modern games are made with voltage taps to convert the line voltage to anything from 90 VAC (low 100VAC) to 240VAC. In order to save money, many Domestic Gottlieb games were made with line transformer with only one set voltage (120VAC). But the game built for export may have used a dual voltage tap transformer. But likewise, we have seen games which only have 220VAC as an input option.

I am sure the gray 12VAC filament transformer was added to power the sound board simply because the installer looked to see what the WMS pinball game it came out of required. And not trying to cross reference the board to video game application etc. where DC was used instead.

Back to CES and Canada. Many "converted" games have been found with additional EMI filters installed between the incoming line cord and the rest of the game. I believe this is to help the games pass a more stringent RF/EMI emission testing in Canada verses the US.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

In theory, ANY transformer (other than some simple "tap" transformers) is an Isolation transformer as it electrically isolates the input current from the output. But most would consider an isolation transformer to be one that has the same input (main line) voltage as it does an output. IE 120 -> 120 or 240 -> 240.
While I am not that well versed on CES, I would assume that an Isolation transformer would be added in the case where line voltage were to appear anyplace other than at the transformer or power distribution assembly (120V coils, fans, etc.). However, in compliance with UL 22 requirement, Gottlieb/Premier installed a safety interlock switch on the front door to disconnect line voltage should a "non-qualified personnel" were to enter the cabinet where voltages higher than 48VDC were present. Some early 70's Gottliebs also had a small microswitch added just under the lock down bar receiver which disconnected the AC line voltage from the transformer. Thereby killing all power to the game (other than the AC wiring which lead up to the switch and at the transformer and main line fuse).
Isolation can also be a way to pass Hi-Pot testing where extremely high voltage is applied to the joined line cord inputs and then the cabinet is checked for leakage to any exposed metal or from line voltage inputs to earth ground. Only a certain amount is allowed. Adding a good isolation transformer solves any shortcomings.
Sometimes, what you might think is an isolation transformer is actually a step up or step down transformer to convert the operating voltage to that of the local line voltage. Although many modern games are made with voltage taps to convert the line voltage to anything from 90 VAC (low 100VAC) to 240VAC. In order to save money, many Domestic Gottlieb games were made with line transformer with only one set voltage (120VAC). But the game built for export may have used a dual voltage tap transformer. But likewise, we have seen games which only have 220VAC as an input option.
I am sure the gray 12VAC filament transformer was added to power the sound board simply because the installer looked to see what the WMS pinball game it came out of required. And not trying to cross reference the board to video game application etc. where DC was used instead.
Back to CES and Canada. Many "converted" games have been found with additional EMI filters installed between the incoming line cord and the rest of the game. I believe this is to help the games pass a more stringent RF/EMI emission testing in Canada verses the US.

Unfortunately I am slowly getting aquatinted with everything this is all new to me. I thought I saw that the original system 80 sound used 12vdc so it will be interesting to see what they did with that source, since they now ran the 12vac, and if this Williams board does support dc as well here’s to hoping converting it back will be easier than I thought.

#34 2 years ago

If you match all of the "white" wires to the proper connector and pin location as shown in the schematic, you should be fine. Gottlieb used white base wires with 3 color stripes on them. So, you just need to identify the proper color stripes.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from Batcade:

From the schematics it looks like this is needed because the gtb 12vac supply is rectified to 12vdc as required by A2 and A5 boards... I guess no way to split off the 12vac into two spots?

Yes the 12VAC is rectified to 12V DC, but that doesn't stop you from running the 12VAC power anywhere else you want. You just add a wire to either the lead on the GTB 12VAC Transformer output, or easier and safer, add it to the AC signals on the Diode bridge after the fuse, or to the fuse connector itself.

Since you have it already on the GTB, that's why I'm wondering why they added the transformer. Either a) they didn't understand how it's set up and put the transformer in when they didn't need it. b) the 12V AC transformer was fried on the GTB and they replaced it. c) the GTB 12VAC couldn't source sufficient power for the original system, and the additional card (which is unlikely).

Anyway... it's there now so you can use it, or just disconnect it if you find the GTB supply is OK.

Diode Bridge 1 (resized).JPG

Diode Bridge 2 (resized).JPG

#36 2 years ago

You missed the part where it requires 24VAC CT (center tapped : 12-0-12). So the original Gottlieb transformer won't work.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

You missed the part where it requires 24VAC CT (center tapped : 12-0-12). So the original Gottlieb transformer won't work.

I don't know my transformers well enough I'm afraid. What will center tapped do compared to the GTB transformer?

Always disk space left to be further educated.

#38 2 years ago

Its basically two equal output windings connected together. The shared connection is the center tap.

A center tapped transformer is usually used in two ways. One, is to get full wave rectification by only using two rectifiers (not 4 as in a bridge rectifier). The second is to use a bridge and with the center tapped as common ground, you get a positive DC voltage AND a negative voltage (as in +12v and -12v).

#39 2 years ago

Here is a small part of the schematic that uses a transformer with a centeral tap.
In this case Williams Black Knight...

williams_power_supply (resized).jpg

#40 2 years ago

Kewl.. i figured it was likely the +\- voltages or if you also wanted a 24v swing, but like the alternate voltage regulator implementation .

Thanks guys... Someone must have really wanted a Williams soundcard in that Spider-Man! Seems like an expensive and complicated option compared to just getting a new soundcard. Maybe they were experimenting because they didn't like the original sounds.

#41 2 years ago

I’m sure they had the Williams board laying around and figured why not. The original spidy board probably doesn’t have very complicated sounds so it’s probably not bad. Hopefully I will find out soon.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

To make a Williams board work you need to have 12Vac at J1-1/2 and J1-8/9.
You also need ground at J1-5/6.
An 8 ohm speaker at J2-1/2 and J2-3/4.
A remote volume controller at J4-1 and J4-2.
Grounding pins J3-2/3/4/5/6/7/8 should produce sounds.
All kinds of combinations are possible, like grounding pin 2-4-5 should give an other sound than grounding pin 2.
In theory the machine should be able to drive the sound board if the Gottlieb driver board grounds the outputs.
It will just give the wroung sounds.

Thanks for posting this schematic, love the quality of it! Too bad my 1980 spidy schematics arn't this good

#43 2 years ago

I have a few files for Gottlieb System 80 games.
If you need any, just ask....

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