(Topic ID: 134411)

Williams Hotline gate won't close

By jefwv

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

Hello all, still working on the hotline. All working now except the gate won't close unless I score it. A and B rollovers open the gate. If the ball goes through the gate it hits a rollover in the shooter lane and the gate will close. If you don't ever get the ball through the gate it won't close, even on start of a new game. Only if powered off will it close.

Changed out coil on the relay, adjusted switches, cleaned and adjusted outhole relay and gate control relay and everything else I can find.

Schematic looks like bumper 1 relay and outhole relay are involved and they work fine. Any ideas?

#2 8 years ago

have you checked score motor cam 4 switch d?

#3 8 years ago

Thanks pinballdaveh, I removed the switches from score motor at one point so I could see them better. Cleaned and adjusted best I could all of them, hard to adjust because the switches aren't resting on the cams.

Will check cam 4 switch d tonight after work. Thanks again

#4 8 years ago

Tried cam 4 switch D. Looks like its adjusted good and I went ahead and cleaned it although it looks like I had been there before. Any other ideas? Thanks

#5 8 years ago

Do your A and B relays stay energized? Do all the pop bumpers stay lit even after you score a letter?

#6 8 years ago

No, A and B lights go out. The red and green pop bumpers go out after scoring a letter. Thanks

#7 8 years ago

Well, there are three switches at 11C on the schematic. Since it only opens at power off, my money is on the NC switch on the gate control relay with the yellow/black and yellow wires going to it not OPENING when the gate is activated.

#8 8 years ago

Thanks! I'll have a look at that this evening.

#9 8 years ago

The gate control relay seems to be working like it should if I score the gate, it returns to non activated and gate closes and all the nc and all the no are in their normal state.

If I don't score the gate and game ends, the gate remains open and the gate control relay is activated.

If I start a new game, and even shoot the ball the gate remains open and the gate control relay is activated....until I score it.

I am attaching a couple pics of the gate control relay. The first is when the gate is not activated, the second is while activated. Probably not the best pics. Thanks
1a.jpg1a.jpg1b.jpg1b.jpg

#10 8 years ago

Are those top three (especially the top two) switches ever opening? They seem awful close?

#11 8 years ago

Hi jefwv, newmantjn +

I had a look at (post-9) pictures - I would rather write "pic-1" shows "Gate-Control-Relay is pulling" / "pic-2" shows "Gate-Control-Relay is not pulling" Do I see this correct ?

I had a look in the schema -> The "Gate-Control-Relay" has 5 Switches:
schema-C-11: a Normally-Closed-Switch with wires soldered-on: Yellow-Black and Yellow
schema-C-11: a Normally-Closed-Switch with wires soldered-on: Red-Yellow and Yellow
schema-E-11: a Normally-Open-Switch witch wires soldered-on: Grey-Red and Grey-White
schema-D-19 or -D-20: a Normally-Open-Switch with wires soldered-on: Blue-Orange and Yellow-Blue
schema-E-19 or -E-20: a Normally-Open-Switch with wires soldered-on: Red-White and Yellow-Blue

Question: In Your pictures I see TWO "switches to open" - and i see THREE "switches to close" -> Do I (A) see wrong / do I (B) think wrong / is (C) a switch mounted wrong ?

newmantjn: Do You have a "Wms Hot Line" ? What switches are on "Gate-Control-Relay" ? Greetings Rolf

P.S.: I hope for answer "C" - maybe I have to face "A" / "B" ...

#12 8 years ago

Rolf, it would certainly look that way with the first pic pulling and second not. I thought it strange last night. Will check again this eve.

Funny thing is the gate Will close, but only if scored.

Also in the pics you can see green wires jumpered from one switch to another. Is this right? Thanks for helping to all!

#13 8 years ago

Hi jefwv, newmantjn +
I am still waiting for "A" / "B" / "C".
Your question "green Jumper wires" - in (post-9) pic-2 I say about the "Switch at the bottom-of-the-pic": I believe it is my first N.C.-Switch - wires Yellow-Black and Yellow.
The switch just above: I belive is is my second N.C.-Switch - wires Red-Yellow and Yellow.
To me - on Your pic - the wire Yellow is soldered-on and the Jumper-green is an extension-YELLOW to the other switch (?).

Also the second "Jumper-Green" could be used as an extension of "Yellow-Blue" ?

jefwv - can You tell (pic-1 / pic-2) the colours of the wires (top -> down) ? Greetings Rolf

#14 8 years ago

Hi jefwv, newmantjn +
The answer is "B" - thats what I believe by now. "Two switches to open / three switches to close" happens to be the same as "Two Normally-Closed-Switches / three Normally-Open-Switches" hmm, I am angry about myself ...

jefwv: "The gate closes - but only when scored" - what means "scored" (I am Swiss-German) ?
Here: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1245&picno=4244&zoom=1 it says clearly: "Gate is a carry-over feature" - from ball to ball. Also from Game (ended) to Game (now startet). I see this also in the schema-G-11: The "Coil-of Gate-Relay" is shown TOWARDS the transformer - afterwards there are the switches on "Game-Over-Relay" and "Reset-Relay". Greetings Rolf

#15 8 years ago

hello again rolf and newmantjn, newmantjn; the switches do look closed but they were open, bad camera angle maybe but I will re-check.

rolf; what I mean by "scored" is that while playing a ball and I make the ball through the gate, the ball goes back down the shooter lane rolls over a rollover scores 300 points and closes the gate.

where it won't close is at start of a new game. I wasn't aware the gate would stay open on start of a new game, it's an unfair advantage in my opinion. If this is the case I have been trying to find a way to get it to close when the game is designed to carry over to next game, next game and so on.

thanks!

#16 8 years ago

also advances a letter to spell out h-o-t-l-i-n-e when scored

#17 8 years ago

Hi jefwv
there is a (Jones ?) Plug You can adjust from "Liberal" to "Normal" - How it is set in Your pin ? (See ipdb-schema-page-2-around-D-10).
I say "as long as You have lighted "A" and "B" AND Gate-Control-Relay is not pulling: You can use and use and use and use the open Gate. I see "when Advance-Relay gets active: Score-Motor-Switches "2A" and "3A" and "4A" give 3 times 100 points (schema-page-2-around-D-10 (or E-10). Greetings Rolf

P.S.: In Switzerland it is about "time to go to sleep (hour 22:40)", Greetings Rolf

#18 8 years ago

Hi rolf,
I have attached a picture of the instructions for the liberal/normal adjust however I have no idea what it is referring to. The instructions are beside the left flipper. I don't see a Jones plug nearby. (do you know newmantjn?)

If I score A and B the gate will open. It will close if I hit any pop bumper first then "score" the gate (put the ball through the gate).
After the gate has been scored, I achieve a letter and A and B are no longer active and get 300 points.

Any time a letter is achieved, A and B are deactivated as they should be. Thanks all.. danke

HL.jpgHL.jpg -Jeff

#19 8 years ago

not at my machine now, but look here, to the left of the transformer.

http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1245&picno=29864&zoom=1

#20 8 years ago

Does the gate control relay release if the game is unplugged/shut off? Just trying to rule out a magnetization. My Williams Apollo return gate would stick even after power was killed, and had enough magnetization to hold it in for several minutes with no power.

#21 8 years ago

never mind...I misread above....

#22 8 years ago

I found the normal/liberal adjust Jones plug. It's under the playfield at the front left. If I put it on liberal it will let either bottom outlane achieve the last 2 letters in hotline. While in normal those lane will only let you achieve the first 5 letters. So set in either position you achieve a letter if the ball goes through one of those bottom outlanes, except in the normal position you can only get the first 5.

It has no effect on the gate closing at start of new game, so I've found. Thanks, danke! still looking for solution if there is one.

P.S. newmantjn the Jones plug to the left of the transformer is the 10 cent adjustment..1 play or 2.norm_lib.jpgnorm_lib.jpg

#23 8 years ago

Hi Jeff, newmantjn, +
great, You found the "Lib <-> Cons" plug. Please write what You use - I would like to have it in "Liberal" - please write (I need the information for "to study the schema"). I am interested to "elimitate the effects of the "Special-Relay" - ipdb-schema-page-2 "C-10" / "D-10" (one Relay (Special-Relay) less to deal with).

If You want to get rid of the "Carry-Over" feature of the Gate: You wold have to rewire on "Gate-Relay".

My (main) problem is the question "when jefwv is playing and the Gate is open - are there times "Gate-Control-Relay pulling" and there are times "Gate-Control-Relay is not pulling" ? Fifty-Fifty ? or 99-01 ? or 95-05 ? or 85-15 ? or 20-80 ? ... Means: Do I have to bother about "Gate is open BUT THE GATE-CONTROL-RELAY IS NOT PULLING" ? (I still am grumbling about "answer "B"").

I create two terms / words: "Regular-Gate" and "Target-Gate" (not official terms). My Number-One "Far Out" has a "Regular-Gate": http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=823&picno=52843 . My "Shangr-La" (my first love) has a "Target-Gate": http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=23477&zoom=1 (way up near "Blue-2").
With a new ball (also new game) the Regular-Gate closes - also my Shangri-La-Target-Gate.
When a ball goes through the Regular-Gate: The Gate closes.
When a ball goes through my Target-Gate: The Target-Gate keeps on beeing "open".
The Gate on Your pin is definitely not a Regular-Gate - but "how exactedly" does Your Target-Gate work (?).

I see three ways / possibilities:
W-A: You play many games and get the idea of the logic.
W-B: You have the playfield lifted-up and manually do tests with "Gate is open BUT the Gate-Control-Relay is NOT pulling" - tests "Gate is open AND the Gate-Control-Relay is pulling".
W-C: We (You) manipulate the pin slightly and You play some games and You find out about the logic. I would prefer W-C. Please write: "jefwv wants W-?".

The Gate-control-Relay has 5 switches to work PROPERLY. How many switches are mounted on the "Gate (Relay)" ? (It is hard to check the whole schema for to find the answer) Please write the number of switches on the Gate-(Relay).

My idea (for "W-C") is: to sneak-in into the pin a new switch and "light-on" / "light-off" the "illumination of Center Jet Bumper" - schema-page-2 around C-8. I would like to cut "Wire-White", sneak-in a Normally-Open-Switch into that "Wire-White" -> "Center Jet Bumper is lit (ONLY) when Gate-Control-Relay is pulling". With this You can play and get the idea about the Gate-Control-Relay (instead of "fumbling around = W-B".

For this (W-C) new switch we (You) have the solutions:
SW-A: A new relay mounted parallel to Gate-Control-Relay (Coil-Side-A-Gate-Control-Relay is connected with Coil-Side-A-New-Relay, also Sides-B) and a switch on New-Relay does the lighting on "Center Jet Bumper Light".
SW-B: A "Micro-Switch" mounted on the Gate-Control-Relay will do the job.
SW-C: We (You) do "rewire a bit the Gate-Control-Relay-Switches" - I claim to be able to rewire and the pin will run "100 % as before" - but we can use a (existing) switch on Gate-Control-Relay to do the job.

For "W-C, SW-C" and "for helping You finding a solution (W-A / W-B): I need the answer to my question (last sentence in my post-13): "jefwv - can You tell (pic-1 / pic-2) the colours of the wires (top -> down) ?"
Want to study the schema-page-4 around E-19 / E-20 -> I claim: I can use the "Normally-Open-Switch on Gate-control-Relay, wires "Red-White and "Yellow-Blue"" (the one switch near the Outhole-Relay-Switch).

Whatever You answer "W-A or W-B or W-C (SW-A or SW-B or SW-C)": I am interested in the "Gate-Problem" ... Greetings Rolf

P.S.: newmantjn - do You have a "paper-schema of Hot Line" ? Can You help us with a PDF showing (end of page-3 / beginning of page-4): -18 -19 (C D E F G) ? (I am working on "freshen-up a copy of ipdb-schema in "MS-Paint" - and I would like to add the missing information.

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

You found the "Lib <-> Cons" plug. Please write what You use - I would like to have it in "Liberal" -

i use the conservative, but will change it to lib.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

If You want to get rid of the "Carry-Over" feature of the Gate: You wold have to rewire on "Gate-Relay".

i would leave it as-is if that is the way it is supposed to work. i just thought/think it is not working properly

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"when jefwv is playing and the Gate is open - are there times "Gate-Control-Relay pulling" and there are times "Gate-Control-Relay is not pulling" ?

the gate control relay is pulling every time the gate opens

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

The Gate on Your pin is definitely not a Regular-Gate - but "how exactedly" does Your Target-Gate work (?).

if i light A and B the gate will open and if the ball goes through the gate it will close. if i light A and B and never get the ball through the gate, the gate never ever closes; on new ball or upon start of new game. but at anytime (same game or new game) i put the ball through the gate it will close (pop bumper has to be hit first though, no matter when you get the ball through the gate). I just looked, the gate control relay won't pull unless A and B are lit AND pop bumper is hit.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I see three ways / possibilities:
W-A: You play many games and get the idea of the logic.
W-B: You have the playfield lifted-up and manually do tests with "Gate is open BUT the Gate-Control-Relay is NOT pulling" - tests "Gate is open AND the Gate-Control-Relay is pulling".
W-C: We (You) manipulate the pin slightly and You play some games and You find out about the logic. I would prefer W-C. Please write: "jefwv wants W-?".

not sure of the question. I have played it many many times and have a pretty good understanding of what it is doing

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

The Gate-control-Relay has 5 switches to work PROPERLY. How many switches are mounted on the "Gate (Relay)" ? (It is hard to check the whole schema for to find the answer) Please write the number of switches on the Gate-(Relay).

3

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

jefwv - can You tell (pic-1 / pic-2) the colours of the wires (top -> down) ?"

from the top best i can see:

all yel/grn

2 white on one blade, grn jumper on other

2 yel/blue with grn jumper the other blade blue/red

2 yel with grn jumper other blade red/yel

1blue/yel other blade grn jumper

danke

#25 8 years ago

OK, so this is extremely embarrassing.

I literally spent several hours working on this tonight. I mapped out the functions etc. Then, when I looked closely at my gate control relay, I saw that there was a cold solder joint and my yellow wire had fallen off at some point. This is the second from the bottom switch stack on your pictures - it feeds into the green jumper wire. I verified your wiring was correct per the schematic and attached my wires like yours.

Now, guess what? My game acts just like yours!!

The gate relay NEVER opens (gate closes) once it is made until the power is cut (unless you go through the gate). I studied the schematic closer than in the past, and I think this may actually be correct. I would like it if somebody else could verify this. I think Mike-O may have one.

Anyway, I actually don't think I like it as much this way, as it turns the gate relay into a carryover feature and a constantly on coil. This may explain why it is always crispy.

SO ...
First - I apologize for all the round and round on this.
Second - If you would like to get the gate relay to close without making it the gate, you can disconnect that yellow wire and see what you think.

I think I may go back that way. I'm not sure I like it when it is "correct".

What a charlie foxtrot. Again, I'm sorry about this.

#26 8 years ago

Hi Jeff
hi newmantjn: It looks like Your Hot Line accidentally has changed the logic to a "Regular-Gate (what we call a Gate)" - the wire "Yellow" has broken-off its Solder-Point. and the little green extension wire (I call this also Yellow) has no connection / function -> BOTH Normally-Closed Switches on Gate-CONTROL-Relay are permanently "open" - the pin runs just with the Gate (-Relay).
You very well can use this "accidental happening": Solder-on a "new, long" wire onto that solder-lug - run that new, long wire carefully around relays and such to the "Cash-Box".
Solder-on another (new, long) wire onto the bare end of (broken-off) "Wire-Yellow" (make some insulation here) and run the second wire also to the "Cash-Box". Connect the two bare ends onto a "Toggle-Switch".
Whenever you want to play "Your way": Open the Coin-door and toggle that (new) switch to "OFF".
Whenever you want to play "Original Williams Hot Line Logic": Open the coin-door and toggle that switch to "On".
(((In some of my pins I have such "Toggle-Switches" - example: Sometimes I want to play without an Up-Post / Down-Post feature)))

Jeff, thanks for the "Colours of the wires on Switches on the Gate-Control-Relay". I must say a couple of things, look -> "Aztec" -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=119 -> schema-E-1 -> stamped-on text: "Due to wire shortages ... colours used in the pin may be other than drawn in the schema ..." - nice ?
Colours in the pin may have getten darker or have bleached - to me: Most of the wires have colour "somewhat grey-white-yellow" ... Are the little stripes (woven-in) black or blue or green ? ... / ... red or orange or yellow or grey or brown ?

These "little green short stubs connecting" tell us an important fact: The wiring in the pin is not the same as the wiring drawn in the schema.
True is - If we see "In the schema there is a (complicated) connection between Point-X and Point-Y (maybe with a "connecting point drawn in the wiring"): Then (in the pin) Point-X and Point-Y have connection - but there is no "connecting point", two ore three wires might be soldered-on somewhere - or a green-jumper-stub is used. The schema is an abstract - made (drawn) beautyful.

I want to identify the switches (post-9, pic-2), Top on the picture is SW-1, bottom on the picture is SW-5 - please sneak a "stripe of paper" into / between the contact-points of SW-4. Plug-in the Line-Cord (110 VAC), start a game, make feature "A" and then feature "B" - I predict-Alfa: The GATE will not open.
Is my prediction "right" or "wrong" ? Please report.

If (if) my prediction-Alfa is "right": Turn-off the game, unplug the Line-chord, take the paper-stripe out of SW-4 and put the paper-stripe into SW-5. ... start a game, make feature "A" BY HAND - immediately afterwards (not hitting other targets or bumpers) make feature "B" (make no other targets or bumpers) - I predict-Beta: NOW the Gate opens. Question: Is the Gate-Control-Relay NOT pulling ?
Let the ball go through the open Gate -> over the switch in the Shooter-Lane -> Question: Do You get points ? / how many points ? -> is the Gate-Control-Relay pulling ? And: I predict-Gamma: The Gate stays open.
Please report about my predictions and about the "Gate-Control-Relay" Greetings Rolf

P.S.: I refer to my post-23 " My (main) problem is the question "when Jeff is playing and the Gate is open - are there times "Gate-Control-Relay is pulling" and there are times "Gate-Control-Relay is not pulling" ? Fifty-Fifty ? or 99-01 ? or 95-05 ? or 85-15 ? or 20-80 ? ... Means: Do I have to bother about "Gate is open BUT THE GATE-CONTROL-RELAY IS NOT PULLING" ?"
- and with the tests above we are making progress on that question.

#27 8 years ago

Hi Jeff
in my writing (post-26) I have made an presumption / assumption about "A"-Relay and "B"-Relay - I assumed "A"-Relay and "B""-Relay stay pulling (but maybe the quit pulling ?).

Please do the following: If (if) my prediction-Alfa is "right": Turn-off the game, unplug the Line-chord, let the paper-stripe in of SW-4 and put (also) a paper-stripe into SW-5. ... start a game, make feature "A" and feature "B" -> I predict-Delta: NOW the Gate opens. Question: Is the Gate-Control-Relay NOT pulling ? Let the ball go through the open Gate -> over the rollover -> I predict-Epsylon: The Gate will close.
Well, with this: You actually made "with two stripes of paper" exactly what I suggested (post-26) to newmantjn. Greetings Rolf

#28 8 years ago

newmantjn: thank you for having the loose wire!! I have been experimenting with the yellow wires/green jumper.

I found that clipping or de-soldering the green jumper, completely removes the carry over feature for the gate. From ball to ball or start of new game.

Was really concerned with the carry over from game to game but this works great. The machine is now just how I want it. Thanks for all your help!!

Rolf: you've been a great help and good teacher. Can't thank you enough. Danke!!!

#29 8 years ago

Hi Jeff
Fine, if You are happy with the result. Do some documentation - written text and snippets from the schema - what You have done / what is (no longer) original. Store this in the pin - for future use, for You or for a latter owner. (I do document when I have altered a pin a bit).

As You are happy with the pin: Please mark the topic as "solved".

Yesterday it was a extremely hot day - and I had to be outside. When I came home: I should have gone to bed right away. I made several mistakes in my post-26 and post-27 - I feel bad about ...

My "Call for help" - the ipdb-schema, end of page-2 / start of page-3 in the schema from 18 to 19: A bit of the drawing is missing - Would an owner of a paper-schema please show a PDF with the missing "part of schema" ? Greetings Rolf

7 years later
#30 1 year ago

Just wanted to verify to other Hot Line Owners that the OP (jefwv - and others) are correct in that the machine's Ball Gate does have the carry over feature from the factory and there is no Jones Plug to change this feature.

It is normal for the Ball Gate when lit to stay open after the game ends if the ball does not go through the gate to deactivate the shooter lane switch during a game.

I thought there was something wrong with my machine as well, but found this old thread and as newmantjn stated that after fixing his broken wire his game works the same as the rest of ours. Rolf-Martin-062 did a lot of research as well and not owning the game at the time came to the same conclusion.

Finally, as stated by another poster please make sure to document any changes you make to this feature if you wish to change it whether cutting or disabling a wire, so that the future owner can decide easily if he wants to return the machine to it's factory intended carry over feature. Personally I am keeping the feature on my game factory original.

Ken

1 month later
#31 1 year ago
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Just wanted to verify to other Hot Line Owners that the OP (jefwv - and others) are correct in that the machine's Ball Gate does have the carry over feature from the factory and there is no Jones Plug to change this feature.
It is normal for the Ball Gate when lit to stay open after the game ends if the ball does not go through the gate to deactivate the shooter lane switch during a game.
I thought there was something wrong with my machine as well, but found this old thread and as newmantjn stated that after fixing his broken wire his game works the same as the rest of ours. Rolf-Martin-062 did a lot of research as well and not owning the game at the time came to the same conclusion.
Finally, as stated by another poster please make sure to document any changes you make to this feature if you wish to change it whether cutting or disabling a wire, so that the future owner can decide easily if he wants to return the machine to it's factory intended carry over feature. Personally I am keeping the feature on my game factory original.
Ken

Hi I have the Hotline and its working per factory settings and would prefer the gate to close is there photos or a simple drawing available so I can alter the carry over im only new to schematics { idiots guide }

regards Paul

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Prezzo:

Hi I have the Hotline and its working per factory settings and would prefer the gate to close is there photos or a simple drawing available so I can alter the carry over im only new to schematics { idiots guide }

regards Paul

Quoted from newmantjn:

If you would like to get the gate relay to close without making it the gate, you can disconnect that yellow wire and see what you think.

#33 1 year ago

if I do disconect it have I understood right that it wont carry over through to next ball ?

1 month later
#34 11 months ago

Ahhhhhh this has been driving me crazy! Which green jumper do I cut? There are 2...

#35 11 months ago

Well...I cut the green jumper to the left (bottom of the pics above) and no change whatsoever. Then I cut the 2 yellow wires off...and gate doesn't work at all. Anyone able to help me out?

#36 11 months ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Well...I cut the green jumper to the left (bottom of the pics above) and no change whatsoever. Then I cut the 2 yellow wires off...and gate doesn't work at all. Anyone able to help me out?

Then I reconnected just jumper. Nope. Then each of the 2 yellow wires separately. Nope.

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