(Topic ID: 55074)

Williams High Speed upper flipper switch why is it this way?

By wayout440

10 years ago


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#1 10 years ago

I was wondering if some improvement in flipper button timing could be achieved on Williams High Speed's upper flipper by modifying the cabinet switch.

Basically this is a double stacked leaf swith and pushing the button in activates the lower flippers first and then a split second later activates the upper. From the schematics, each circuit is basically identical for the right upper and lower flipper with the exception of the suppression cap on the lower flipper.

Looking at the attached pic, is there any reason I couldn't alter the circuit as shown to allow only the lower switch to operate each flipper simultaneously? flipper.jpgflipper.jpg

#3 10 years ago

You will want to keep the original design intact. It is really nice because it does allow you to use (with the proper finesse) only the lower flipper without activating the upper (which does come in handy sometimes in multiball)

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

You will want to keep the original design intact. It is really nice because it does allow you to use (with the proper finesse) only the lower flipper without activating the upper (which does come in handy sometimes in multiball)

While I appreciate the response here, there is almost no way I am going to be able to use the flippers in this manner you have suggested, and I would benefit my game more to be able to get more instantaneous response on the upper flipper.

My original question is if I modify the design as shown on the diagram, what, if any, problems could I expect.

#5 10 years ago

If the response is really lagging that bad, I would suggest adjusting the switch before removing it.

Not sure if there would be an issue with using one switch for both or not though. I would say do it, and report back. I am sure others have thought about it as well.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

If the response is really lagging that bad, I would suggest adjusting the switch before removing it.
Not sure if there would be an issue with using one switch for both or not though. I would say do it, and report back. I am sure others have thought about it as well.

It's been a little while since I've been in that game, I do believe I had adjusted the switch about as tight as it can go for the stack. I'm getting old and that shot is very tough. The upper flipper has plenty of power to make the shot, so it's all about the timing to pull it off. I'm getting old and my timer is not what it used to be. I may try to move it as an experiment to see what happens. I'm thinking that the switch is probably enough for the double load of current - just not sure.

Another option might be to install 2 single switches side by side so that the button activates both simultaneously instead of the button having to push one then the other.

#7 10 years ago

That cap is a spark arrestor. You've doubled the current flowing now through the single flipper switch and capacitor, whereas before, the current was halved through two contact points. Likely not a problem unless the contact amperage rating on the flipper switch is marginal. You'll probably end up with more pitting and shorten life of the contacts on the switch.

#8 10 years ago

OK, I moved the brown/yellow wire from the outer switch contacts to same inner contact blue/violet. Now both upper and lower right flippers operate simultaneously. Status still operates when the button is held in, and no adverse effects are noted. I've played a couple of games without any problems and this helps in the timing of the upper flipper ramp shot. It's still a tough shot but at least when the button is pressed the flipper is right on with your shot.

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

That cap is a spark arrestor. You've doubled the current flowing now through the single flipper switch and capacitor, whereas before, the current was halved through two contact points. Likely not a problem unless the contact amperage rating on the flipper switch is marginal. You'll probably end up with more pitting and shorten life of the contacts on the switch.

Yes that is noted, the ratings of the spark arrestor cap are way way beyond the sum total voltage and current ratings of the arrestor cap. Long term effects,to be honest are hard to really determine with absolute certainty. My home use game doesn't get played anywhere near a full time arcade machine. I'm going to put it through it's paces over the coming months and evaluate it further.

#10 10 years ago

True, comparing apples to oranges as far as environment and duty cycle....However, I'm sure you understand that WMS wasn't in the habit of adding parts for no reason. These games were streamlined to save costs, and so an extra switch (added cost) was installed for some purpose. Maybe to give independent control as an earlier poster suggested. Maybe to decrease pitting across the single set of flipper points. Who knows, but in a home environment, probably a non-issue.

#11 10 years ago

The only downside I see is the potential voltage dip / drop from two coils firing together Vs milliseconds apart. If you do not have any voltage drop issues I doubt it will harm anything.

When I had my HS I switched the series wound flipper coils over to the more modern parallel wound coils. These do not arc as much and the tungsten switch contacts do not get hammered from arcing.
With both coils firing together watch for increased contact pitting , if any.

#12 10 years ago

For what it's worth, my Black Knight 2000 seems to operate like you want your High Speed to operate. I've always wondered why it seemed to be the only Williams machine with an upper flipper where the upper flipper didn't operate independently.

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

The only downside I see is the potential voltage dip / drop from two coils firing together Vs milliseconds apart. If you do not have any voltage drop issues I doubt it will harm anything.
When I had my HS I switched the series wound flipper coils over to the more modern parallel wound coils. These do not arc as much and the tungsten switch contacts do not get hammered from arcing.
With both coils firing together watch for increased contact pitting , if any.

The arcing is somewhat increased with the modification. I'll probably add a snubber sometime in the near future to increase the contact life.

#14 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The arcing is somewhat increased with the modification. I'll probably add a snubber sometime in the near future to increase the contact life.

Swapping to modern parallel wound coils eliminate the arcing and your contacts will last a lot longer.

#15 10 years ago

Just leave the damn thing alone.

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Just leave the damn thing alone.

Now that I did it, makes me want to play it MORE.

4 months later
#17 10 years ago

I saw this post regarding the flipper and hoped someone here might be able to help my friend who just bought a minty HS. The only issue was that one flipper was extremely sluggish. The other side worked as designed. When he got the game home and fired it up neither flippers work. All fuses tested fine. Any known issues about this particular game and flippers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping that symptom was seen by others with more experience.

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

I saw this post regarding the flipper and hoped someone here might be able to help my friend who just bought a minty HS. The only issue was that one flipper was extremely sluggish. The other side worked as designed. When he got the game home and fired it up neither flippers work. All fuses tested fine. Any known issues about this particular game and flippers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping that symptom was seen by others with more experience.

Were the fuses tested out of the game, or still in circuit?

Check connectors for flippers to make sure they did not get loose from moving the game (these things happen!)

Check for voltage at the coils.

Check switches by flipper buttons, they may need to be cleaned.

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

While I appreciate the response here, there is almost no way I am going to be able to use the flippers in this manner you have suggested, and I would benefit my game more to be able to get more instantaneous response on the upper flipper.

My original question is if I modify the design as shown on the diagram, what, if any, problems could I expect.

You're actually trying to remove flipper staging!? I promise you will benefit your game alot more if you actually learn proper flipper staging techniques. This feature is present even on new machines like X Men and Tron. This isn't an 'oversight' or inconvenience, and frankly it's one of the easiest techniques to work on.

No machine I'm aware of fires coils simultaneously with one switch but they may exist - even games that don't let you stage flippers (early Stern or Bally) have the rotation of a flipper trigger the next coil in the line... kinda like an EOS switch. I would guess that energizing two coils on the same circuit at the same time will result in weaker flips, especially if a ball is present in front of both flippers.

You won't damage anything except maybe the cabinet switch, and of course the amount of flipper techniques you have access to in multiball

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