Williams High Speed dead...newbie looking for advice :)

I'm mainly an arcade guy...I have and have had a few pins over the past couple of years, but other than rebuilding power supplies I haven't had to do anything to them. I picked up a project High Speed recently, and cosmetically it's in great shape, but other than a few lamps lighting, it does nothing when turned on. The power supply definitely needs to be rebuilt as it only outputs 4.7v which drops to 3.5 under load. The cpu has no acid damage or other visible damage, but I will reflow the headers and check more closely soon. Also, the 2.5 amp fuse from pin 5 of the flipper power supply blows immediately! Would this indicate an issue with one of the br's, relays, or solenoids downstream, or with the board itself...or could it be either or both? It also looks like there were some mods done to the transformer wiring, like the 6.3v lines were replaced, but as far as i can tell that looks like it was done properly, although i don't know why? I was told it had "a couple of bad solenoids," and there are like a half dozen old ones lying on the bottom of the cab, so many have been replaced...can these be tested in circuit without powering the game up?

My main question is, is there a "flow chart" for working on pins? With arcades, it's fairly simple...power supply, connections, board/monitor issues and that's pretty much it. My plan is to address the power first, but are there things I need to check before powering the game up?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks,
Mike

#2 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

Not sure if there's a flow chart, but your approach is actually pretty spot on so far. Connectors and voltages. I'd probably start with the power supply board, you'll want to replace the electrolytic caps there. The bridge rectifiers can be tested with a dmm using the diode test. Coils under the playfield can be tested for resistance, typically anything under 2 ohms is bad (though not always).

It sounds like you have a few different things going on right now, so I'd start by rebuilding the power supply (electrolytic caps, check for correct fuses, etc) and connectors (re-flow/replace as needed for male and female sides). Once you have good voltages and connectors, you might find some of the other problems go away.

#3 4 years ago

KJO

eyeamred2u

Pinside+ Frequent

Cleveland, OH

7y 74,800 2,857 5

You want to cut all the connectors off, solder them directly to each board, then use lots and lots.of solder, so its a big blob.......LMAO no don't do that. Just work logically. There are plenty of guides to help. Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

Ken

#4 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

thanks guys...i'll proceed as planned then. i really just wanted to make sure that it's not necessary to check all br's, solenoids and relays before powering up...there's so fricking many!!!
i'm sure i'll be asking for more help soon

#5 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Rebuilt the power supply (luckily i had all the caps and transistor on hand), the game now starts up and appears to work normally. I can coin up and start the game, but no ball advances to the plunger and the flippers won’t work. (In test mode the flippers did respond properly).
Now I’m guessing I need to address the 2.5A SB fuse that pops every time the game is turned on. Any ideas on what could be causing this? Again, it is the one leading to pin 5 of J3 on the flipper power supply.
Even with the fuse removed, though, shouldn’t the ball advance when a game is started? It doesn’t look like that coil is powered through the flipper board. Can someone explain how to test the coil in more detail?
Thanks again!!!

#6 4 years ago

DAD

uncivil_engineer

Pinside member

9y 91,550 2,012

If my memory is correct, the 2.5 amp slow-blow is the main coil voltage feed fuse. So yes if this fuse is blowing, none of the coils will work. If it blows every time the game comes on, you may have one of two problem: 1. The reset circuit is not working correctly, and the coils are all trying to pull in as the game powers up. This will blow the coil circuit every time. As you turn on the machine, if you can usually hear the coils pull in before it blows.

The other option is you have one of the coil driver shorted to ground. This will also pop the coil fuse as soon as it powers on.

#7 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Also, in test mode, it shows upper right hidout as being stuck. I’m pretty sure it means the issue with the fuse has to do with either that solenoid or br...is this a good assumption?

#8 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

A lot of times it can be a transistor that went bad and is permanently "locked on" providing a path to ground for one of the solenoids, causing the 2.5a slow-blow fuse to blow after the game's been on a few seconds.

With the game off, I would start by disconnecting all 3 solenoid connectors on the main cpu/driver board, as shown in the chart below: 1P11, 1P12, and 1P19 (on the board, it may be labeled J11, J12, J19). Replace the 2.5a slo-blo fuse (make sure to use *only* a 2.5a slo-blo aka MDL fuse--don't go higher than that). Turn on the game and see if the fuse blows. Listen carefully to the game and watch the playfield to see if you catch a coil activating immediately when you turn the game on. If it doesn't blow, try plugging in one of the 3 connectors and see if the fuse blows. You may even see a spark at one of the connector pins as you plug it into the board--that may give you a clue as to which transistor/coil is locked on.

If the fuse doesn't blow with all 3 solenoid connectors plugged in, see if you can run the coil test in diagnostics and see if any of the coils blow the fuse when they're supposed to fire.
1175380551.png

#9 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Thanks for the advice and info...turns out, there was actually a fuse stuck inside of the right upper hideout switch!!! It was holding the switch closed and blowing the 2.5a fuse...kinda ironic since the stuck fuse was a 2.5a sb!!! There are fuses strewn all over the inside of this thing.

Anyways, at this point I seem to have the game nearly fully working. I cannot get either the Left lower or upper hideout switches to work, all other switches register fine. Also, when I have a ball in the hideout (during the chase) and another one is hit into the hideout as well, both balls get stuck there. I’m not familiar with this game at all, so I’ll have to do some digging to see how it’s supposed to work, but I am getting close!

Any suggestions on what to look for with the two remaining issues?
Thanks so much guys!!!

Oh...also, the “speeder 3” numeric display is not working. Are replacements available anywhere other than buying a complete led kit?

#10 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

That's so funny you found a fuse causing the problem like that! For all the times a seller claims the problem is "probably just a fuse"

The 2 non-working switches share a column on the switch matrix, column 5. According to the chart, they will have a green/black wire at each of those switches. Check for the green/black wire(s) and the 1N4001 diodes going to each of the non-working switches. Also check the green/black wires and diodes on each of the other switches in the same vertical column on the switch matrix chart here. Make sure those wires and diodes are tightly attached and wired properly to all 8 of the switches (start with the trouble switches and move over to the others if the problem persists). A broken wire or diode on one switch can sometimes cause problems elsewhere on the same column or row of switches. One easy way to tell if there's a break in the "daisy-chain" in the green/black circuit for column 5 would be:

set your dmm for continuity test
put one lead on a green/black wire going to a non-working switch
place other lead on the green/black wire on the other working switches from that column and listen/check for continuity
You should have continuity between all 8 switches' green/black wire. You should also have continuity from the green/black wire on all those switches to pin 5 of connector 1J8 at the driver board (check the switch matrix chart, column 5)
Screenshot_20190529_022717_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpg

#11 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Damn...this pin is frustrating! So, the fuse is still blowing, apparently the stuck switch was just coincidence, i've gone through about 20 bucks in fuses trying to figure this out I thought I had pinpointed the culprit as the knocker (someone had previously cut the connecting wire to it, and I rewired it and later, doing the test described above, the fuse blew when the knocker fired), but even with it disconnected again, the fuse still blows...not immediately, however, this last time it was after the ball got stuck in the left hideout...so I'm now wondering if it has something to do with those switches not registering???

As far as the left hideout switches go, both switches physically work, and the green/black wires have continuity to pin 5 of J8. What I have noticed, though (after watching gameplay videos) is that mine is constantly revving!!! So, can someone explain to me how the revving sound works? I'm guessing there's a stuck switch above the left hideout switches (either number 37 or 38), but I have no idea where to look!?!?

I really want to get this working after watching the gameplay videos, it looks like an amazingly fun pin!!!

Thanks again,
Mike

#12 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

I think I found the other switches, and now of them register either...looks like none in that column work. I'm going to replace q43 and see where that gets me.......

#13 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

DAMMIT!!! So close......Replacing q43 got all switches working, except "right flipper engine revving," for some reason. The game appeared to be working perfectly, until a ball goes down the left outlane, that is. As soon as the left outlane switch is hit, the game resets!?!?!?! This didn't happen before. Also, during the coil test, it resets when the kickback is engaged. ARGHHHHHHH...time for a beer......

#14 4 years ago

ZDG

gutz

Pinside member

10y 78,550 1,745 28

OP
Quoted from mikehoss1414:
DAMMIT!!! So close......Replacing q43 got all switches working, except "right flipper engine revving," for some reason. The game appeared to be working perfectly, until a ball goes down the left outlane, that is. As soon as the left outlane switch is hit, the game resets!?!?!?! This didn't happen before. Also, during the coil test, it resets when the kickback is engaged. ARGHHHHHHH...time for a beer......

The right EOS 'engine revving' switch is on the flipper mech, it might just be dirty. Or the plastic actuator might be missing. If the left side EOS is working, use it as a reference.

The reset issue could be a couple things. First, is the diode on the left outlane switch good? Is the switch wired properly? Its on the same row as a the slam tilt switch and there could be some cross talk on the switch matrix. Second, is the diode on the kickback coil present and unbroken?

#15 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

Check the switch ganged up with the end of stroke switch, like gutz said above. It sounds like the wiring lugs on the switches may have gotten mashed together or the actuator broke or something else causing the switch to keep activating (causing the revving sound you were hearing)

Sounds like you're getting close to the source of the problem, possibly...

#16 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Thanks for the reply...I got the right EOS working, it was just dirty.

As for the reset, it was working fine before I fixed the bad transistor, so I doubt one of the diodes just went bad, but is there a way to test them in circuit, does a simple diode test work in circuit?

Thanks!

#17 4 years ago

ZDG

gutz

Pinside member

10y 78,550 1,745 28

OP
Quoted from mikehoss1414:
Thanks for the reply...I got the right EOS working, it was just dirty.
As for the reset, it was working fine before I fixed the bad transistor, so I doubt one of the diodes just went bad, but is there a way to test them in circuit, does a simple diode test work in circuit?
Thanks!

Lift one leg and do the diode test.

It could be a random coincidence the resets started happening after replacing the transistor, but maybe they're related. Start testing the simple, and likely, things first to eliminate them; then move on to the more complex, less likely causes.

Since column 5 wasn't 'alive' until now, the problem switch can be there. I would also checkout the switch wiring and diode that is on the same row 7 as the left outlane and slam tilt = left hideout switch.

#18 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

I have at this point only tested the left outlane diode, and it is fine. As far as the other switches on that row, all of them work fine (slam tilt displays tilt on the display and stops gameplay) as well as all other switches on that column. It only resets when the left outlane switch is engaged during gameplay or the kickback coil is supposed to be engaged during the coil test...should I suspect q7???

#19 4 years ago

ZDG

gutz

Pinside member

10y 78,550 1,745 28

Did you check the diode on the kickback coil? If its broken or missing, it can cause a voltage spike that would reset the game.

In game play, is the outlane switch alone causing the reset or is it because the switch is triggering the kickback coil which is actually causing the reset? If the former, ots a switch matrix issue
- verify in the switch test that the outlane switch doesn't register multiple switches. If the latter, its a coil/diode/wire issue and limited to playfield
- if it were a board issue the coil would either be locked on or not working.

#20 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Looks like that kickback coil is bad. I removed it, and the left outlane switch worked fine. I tested the diode, and it was bad, so I replaced it. After putting the coil back in and turning the game on, the fuse immediately blew and the coil smoked. I'm guessing this coil was the cause of my fuse issue the entire time. Time to learn how to replace a coil now

#21 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

I would also recommend checking the associated transistor and predriver transistors on the driver board that control that coil. It's possible the transistor(s) locked on, frying the coil. If they're bad, they'll fry the new one & blow the fuse again.

#22 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

Quoted from frunch:
I would also recommend checking the associated transistor and predriver transistors on the driver board that control that coil. It's possible the transistor(s) locked on, frying the coil. If they're bad, they'll fry the new one & blow the fuse again.

There is a snubber relay in line for this coil. So I don't think it could have damaged the transistor.

#23 4 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index2.htm
https://hansbalk.home.xs4all.nl/rep/sys11/index.html

Quoted from GRUMPY:
There is a snubber relay in line for this coil. So I don't think it could have damaged the transistor.

Ah, good catch! I hadn't checked the schematics Does it seem likely then it was a bad diode that fried the coil?

#24 4 years ago

???

GnarLee

Pinside member

San Antonio, TX

5y 34,050 506 2

I shopped a pin a couple months ago. It was my first arcade/pinball machine I used the above websites to find a lot of good info especially where to start and whet to look at for certain problems.

#25 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

Quoted from frunch:
Does it seem likely then it was a bad diode that fried the coil?

Could be all the usual things, pre driver, driver, stuck relay, diode, and or nor chip and lastly a PIA.

#26 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Long delay waiting for parts! I've replaced the kickback coil, but the fuse blows immediately when I turn it on again
I've ordered a few t102's and plan on replacing the q7 and the pre driver. If it's not those, could the relay be bad???
Without the kickback attached, the game plays perfectly......crazy fun game, I gotta figure this out!!!
Thanks

#27 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from mikehoss1414:
Long delay waiting for parts! I've replaced the kickback coil, but the fuse blows immediately when I turn it on again
I've ordered a few t102's and plan on replacing the q7 and the pre driver. If it's not those, could the relay be bad???
Without the kickback attached, the game plays perfectly......crazy fun game, I gotta figure this out!!!
Thanks

Disconnect 1J-12 from the CPU board. Turn on the game. Does the fuse blow now?

#28 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Major DOH! Moment.....when I put in the new solenoid I wired it exactly as it was when I took the old one out. There’s definitely been some shotty repair work done on this before as the bottom of the cab had about a half dozen coils and other parts just lying in it. Taking it out again last night, I realized it had been wired in backwards!!! The ground wire was on the banded side of the diode, I was shorting out the fuse as soon as I powered it up.

I haven’t powered it up again yet, since I have the board out I’m going to replace q7 anyway, but I’m fairly sure I should have this one figured out now

I’ll throw up some pics later this evening...thank you all so much for helping me through it!

#29 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from mikehoss1414:
I have the board out I’m going to replace q7 anyway

Not needed as the relay will isolate the damage to just the coil. But you will need to replace the coil diode.

#30 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Quoted from GRUMPY:
But you will need to replace the coil diode.

wish i would've read this before i fired it up last night!!! oh well, i bought a couple of new coils...blew the main 4a fuse and smoked the coil, but no other damage thankfully.

just to be double sure before i do more damage...the blue wire is the ground wire and goes to the non-banded side of the diode, correct?

thanks a lot, i'm getting close, new light motor should be on my porch when i get home

#31 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

This pic is for the hideout coils but any 50 volt coil should be wired the same except for the control wire.

The positive coil voltage is purple/yellow, the coil ground is blue.

The relay control wire is brown/blue, remove this wire from the relay. Replace the coil and diode. Rewire the coil correctly. Replace the fuse and turn on the power. Take the control wire and briefly touch it the the relay from where it was removed. Does the coil activate when the control wire is touched to the relay? No, good then install the control relay and test during a game. Yes, the you have board damage and need to replace the transistors.

kickback (resized).PNG

#32 4 years ago

???

mikehoss1414

Pinside member

Thank you soooo much...high speed is working perfectly now!!! What a great game. I bought this one to play around with and sell, but it's on it's way into the arcade now

You've all been extremely nice and helpful walking me through my first pin. I greatly appreciate it!

#33 4 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,632 104

Congrats and enjoy!!

#34 4 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member