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(Topic ID: 266878)

williams gulfstream blowing 15A


By vipertblck

6 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by vipertblck
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 months ago

just picked this single player EM up; it's my first one i bought that didn't work; time to dig in. help me out and along if im wrong on some things; i'm learning from scratch-but luckily the game came with an original schematic. originally it did nothing; i quickly went through and saw the 15A fuse was blown, looks like this runs the coils under the playfield and is a 24V system. replacing the fuse and hitting the start button, the game comes to life and starts doing it's resets and lighting up...then 3-5 seconds go by and it blows the fuse. I've put a circuit breaker in the fuses place to help move this along; and right before the blow it has a "buzzing" sound i would describe it as. can't tell where from yet though. almost seemed it was by the kick off switch. this switch has a rod that goes vertically and when it goes up it moves some switches; thinking maybe underneath the coil board is another coil that operates the rod?! anyway if i place some paper between the contacts for this switch, the fuse doesn't blow during it's reset...but there's no lights.

-when the game blows the fuse; i need to MANUALLY with my finger hit the game over relay trip and game relay trip
-when the game dies with paper between the kickoff switch contacts; it doesn't light up during it's reset and i only need to manually reset the game relay trip
-if i manually hit the lock relay with no paper in the kick off switch and a good fuse; the whole thing lights up.
-if i unplug the jones plug on the "coil board"(board under the playfield), and hit the game start button; it does it's reset and all lights up and finishes. no blown fuse and no dead lights (except the playfield).

any suggestions on where to go here? from what I've described and gathered im leaning towards a playfield issue; since with that jones plug unplugged from the coil board, the fuse doesn't blow and the lights stay on when the game start button is pressed.

#2 6 months ago

Manually actuate all the plungers to see if any don't move or really sluggish.

An Ohm meter across all the coils individually will let you know if any are shorted (should have a low ohm reading but NOT zero (or infinite)

Lots of other great tip here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

Welcome to Pinside

#3 6 months ago

thanks; I've gone through some of the coils down on that coil board as i call it; all seemed ok i believe.
-all coils under playfield we're 9.x ohms
-reject relay 14ohm
-lock relay 17 ohm
-game relay latch 2.5 ohm
those were all on the board under the playfield though; haven't checked any ohms on the playfield coils yet. also you said check the plungers; meaning things that act as a solenoid? such as flippers, ones that shoot push the ball; anything with a cylinder inside the coil that shoots the cylinder? sorry if it's a dumb question; still learning as i go.

#4 6 months ago
Quoted from vipertblck:

you said check the plungers; meaning things that act as a solenoid?

Mainly the stepper units, and anything that is involved in reset. And don't worry-no dumb questions. Bookmark that link in #2!!

#5 6 months ago
Quoted from vipertblck:

thanks; I've gone through some of the coils down on that coil board as i call it; all seemed ok i believe.
-all coils under playfield we're 9.x ohms
-reject relay 14ohm
-lock relay 17 ohm
-game relay latch 2.5 ohm
those were all on the board under the playfield though; haven't checked any ohms on the playfield coils yet. also you said check the plungers; meaning things that act as a solenoid? such as flippers, ones that shoot push the ball; anything with a cylinder inside the coil that shoots the cylinder? sorry if it's a dumb question; still learning as i go.

hmmmmm I guess specifically there are different types. relay coils that magnetize and pull an armature plate towards it

other coils have a sleeve inside that pulls a plunger rod (pops, slings,steppers, chimes ...

Flipper coils usually have 3 terminals on them for a power stroke and a holding feature

I think technically a solonoid is constructed a little different but operates on the same principle ( like Bally zipper flippers close mechanism & the Nip-it Balligator grabber thingie ... some would argue it pushes too )

wow just found this: https://www.pinballmedic.net/coilchart.html

but basically they all have ~some~ resistance ... some may look burnt but be ok & others look nice but shorted

Plenty of resources for replacements if necessary check to see if you have the correct part #

#6 6 months ago

thanks everyone; its sounding like i have a bad coil somewhere. as i said I've only checked the ones beneath the playfield on that coil board as i call it (with the transformers on it). those all seemed ok. visually everything else looks ok, but i still need to get around to checking them. since it doesn't blow the fuse with the playfield unplugged; i'm putting my money on the playfield as the culprit; lots and lots of coils in there to ohm out it looks like! did a visual on the playfield and nothing popped out right away in terms of stuck switches, contacts, lighting sockets, bent terminals, broken wires, and so on. will report back one i start ohming out coils on the playfield.

#7 6 months ago

How about the trip bank coil plunger... that's a HUGE coil, and if it hangs up it can blow that fuse in a flash.

#8 6 months ago

I am not familiar with this game personally. you say it starts up going through the reset sequences.

does it have bonus ? sometimes the startup sequence for a new game/ball it will step-up one after it had counted down all the bonus from a previous ball/game

I was just thinking with the circuit breaker in, play a game with glass off actuating the different playfield devices .... watch them fingers in pop bumpers ... they scary

#9 6 months ago
Quoted from Dono:

How about the trip bank coil plunger... that's a HUGE coil, and if it hangs up it can blow that fuse in a flash.

is this the one on the playfield that is right in the center? there's actually 2 of them? D1-24-1600; they reset all the relays?

#10 6 months ago
Quoted from chas10e:

I am not familiar with this game personally. you say it starts up going through the reset sequences.
does it have bonus ? sometimes the startup sequence for a new game/ball it will step-up one after it had counted down all the bonus from a previous ball/game
I was just thinking with the circuit breaker in, play a game with glass off actuating the different playfield devices .... watch them fingers in pop bumpers ... they scary

can't do this; never gotten it far enough to stay lit up and turned on with the playfield plugged in

#11 6 months ago
Quoted from Dono:

How about the trip bank coil plunger... that's a HUGE coil, and if it hangs up it can blow that fuse in a flash.

Wouldn't that blow the setup bank fuse? Normally trip banks like that have their own fuse and it is a slo blow. That coil is not in the 24 volt circuit and is line voltage. Any coil that is line voltage will have plastic insulation on the wires.

#12 6 months ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Wouldn't that blow the setup bank fuse? Normally trip banks like that have their own fuse and it is a slo blow. That coil is not in the 24 volt circuit and is line voltage. Any coil that is line voltage will have plastic insulation on the wires.

Yep, good point, should have looked at my schematic prior to posting;

Original poster... what do you mean by the "rod that goes up and down next to the kick-off switch"... could you post a photo of what you're referring to?

#13 6 months ago

Trip bank coil plunger? These are fine I believe. They move freely by hand. They cycle during the restart process before fuse is blown. There is 2 of them

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#14 6 months ago

This is the rod I’m referring to. Thinking maybe there’s a coil underneith that shoots it up? When it goes up, it opens the contacts on the leafs. I’m holding it up in the photos for visualization.

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#15 6 months ago

There is no coil under the kick-off switch. The rod is supposed to move up and cut power to lock relay if the bottom of game is kicked.

Check each and every relay and solenoid coil for burnt or brownish wrapper paper. If you find one, check its ohms. Also look at the bottom board relays, there might be a loose screw from playfield landed on some relay contacts.

I am not sure if Gulfstream has DC bumpers, if so, check the rectifier bridge on playfield underside. Temporarily remove one of the AC~ side wires and if the fuse then doesnt blow, you found the problem.

Edit: Looks like it indeed has DC bumpers, so try disconnecting red wire from the rectifier (near left flipper).

#16 6 months ago

Also look at the bottom board relays, there might be a loose screw from playfield landed on some relay contacts.

This is a valid point. looking in the pic of the kick switch, it appears there are solder droppings all over, possibly one or more landed on a relay switch.

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from WOLF:

Also look at the bottom board relays, there might be a loose screw from playfield landed on some relay contacts.
This is a valid point. looking in the pic of the kick switch, it appears there are solder droppings all over, possibly one or more landed on a relay switch.

Looking at the schematic the rectifier has its own 10A fuse, so I would doubt the rectifier is bad, basically what EMsinKC stated in his post, however I've replaced a bad rectifier that didn't blow that 10A fuse, so YMMV. I would suggest replacing the 15A fuse, put the jones plugs back in...and lift the playfield all the way up and the front laying slightly on the backbox. Power on the game, then turn the lights out in your room... keep your eye on the underside of the playfield as you start up a new game... you will most likely get a hint of the issue when it flashes right before the fuse blows. I had a Williams Solids N Stripes EM that has a huge relay bank on the underside of the playfield very similar to Gulfstream ... and the issue was on that bank... only seen when the lights in the room were off. It was a set of switches that were hitting the reset bar just so slightly, tripping the 15A fuse.

#18 6 months ago

Does this brown lamp wiring look correct? I need to take a class on how to properly read a wiring diagram cuz I can’t find anything for the life of me in the schematic or how to read what and where the wires go. This coil in the center has obviously been altered with the lamp wiring. im asking cuz this has some "sparks" as well as a few other relays by the lock relay that it kinda jumps around when it blows the fuse. meaning there's this "buzzing" noise that I cant pinpoint for about a second and then the fuse blows, during this buzzing 2-3 of these coils are generating a noticeable spark. there's absolutely no sparks on the playfield that I can see in the dark; just on this coil board. not sure why that is as the playfield unplugged is the one not blowing the fuse.

anyway, the rectifier red wire unplugged makes no difference. and the only sparks I see in the dark are from the cam/motor area down on the coil board and then during this buzzing I previously mentioned.....things getting frustrating; might just end up for sale as is!

also to update; I see no dripped solder that's on any contacts, no loose screws, and no coils that looks toasted.
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#19 6 months ago

Quoted from vipertblck:

Trip bank coil plunger? These are fine I believe. They move freely by hand. They cycle during the restart process before fuse is blown. There is 2 of them[quoted image]

that trip bank is mounted to the playfield ?

Inside that thing is a good number of trip coils from what the image shows ... prolly a bear to get to but I would venture a guess to take some coil readings there.

I think this is the unit: http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/WMS_Parts_1977-1978/index.html#/34/zoomed and hope it helps

#20 6 months ago
Quoted from Dono:

Looking at the schematic the rectifier has its own 10A fuse, so I would doubt the rectifier is bad

Yes it does. But the problem is, that the fuse is AFTER the rectifier, at the DC side. So while it will protect the rectifier in case of a short in DC circuit, it will not help if the rectifier itself gets internally shorted.

#21 6 months ago

That relay you picture doesn't look right to me... my Gulfstream isn't accessible right now, but if you look at the inside cab shot on the Internet Pinball Database, that relay doesn't exist and is suspect. Perhaps placed there and wired in place to incorrectly bypass an existing issue. Where do the brown leads to that relay come from?

#22 6 months ago
Quoted from chas10e:

that trip bank is mounted to the playfield ?
Inside that thing is a good number of trip coils from what the image shows ... prolly a bear to get to but I would venture a guess to take some coil readings there.
I think this is the unit: http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/WMS_Parts_1977-1978/index.html#/34/zoomed and hope it helps

yup, sure is. the link you send LOOKS like it's the same as what I've got, except there's 2 of them in a row in my game. prolly 15ish coils all in a row for each relay

#23 6 months ago
Quoted from Dono:

That relay you picture doesn't look right to me... my Gulfstream isn't accessible right now, but if you look at the inside cab shot on the Internet Pinball Database, that relay doesn't exist and is suspect. Perhaps placed there and wired in place to incorrectly bypass an existing issue. Where do the brown leads to that relay come from?

image (resized).jpg
#24 6 months ago

Brown wire go down to jones plug that follows to flipper buttons and start button

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#25 6 months ago

gotta give credit to everyone here so far, and dono for noting that my game is hacked up. judging from the pic dono mentioned off IPDB, I have an extra relay he noted, as well as what I'm assuming is another transformer (up where the main cord pigtails are located), as well as one of the jones plug "terminals" that's been deleted and should be to the left of the play counter. with my slim knowledge of reading and understanding wires and symbols on a schematic; this game might be over my head I'm starting to think.....

#26 6 months ago
Quoted from vipertblck:

gotta give credit to everyone here so far, and dono for noting that my game is hacked up. judging from the pic dono mentioned off IPDB, I have an extra relay he noted, as well as what I'm assuming is another transformer (up where the main cord pigtails are located), as well as one of the jones plug "terminals" that's been deleted and should be to the left of the play counter. with my slim knowledge of reading and understanding wires and symbols on a schematic; this game might be over my head I'm starting to think.....

Thanks! Bizarre indeed - perhaps all these hacks are due to the owner thinking that the original transformer wasn't working...

Where do you live? If you're close to the Balto/Wash. DC area, I could help. I've restored 3 Gulfsteams, and currently have one in my collection.

#27 6 months ago

Even if you're not close, I can help with some detailed pix so you can take all that stupid unnecessary crap off your game and get it wired up correctly... what you'll probably find is it is easy figuring out the additional wiring, removing it, and ensuring that you're wired back up... and hey perhaps you've got an extra transformer for your parts bin! Gulfstream is a nice player and worth saving.

Just let me know.

#28 6 months ago

What circuits run through the empty jones plug at the bottom of pic?

#29 6 months ago
Quoted from WOLF:

What circuits run through the empty jones plug at the bottom of pic?

have to double check when I get home, but it's either the coin door or the chimes. believe it's the coin door one. I had stuff unplugged to try and eliminate possibilities; never plugged the chimes or coin door back in.

#30 6 months ago

Well it looks like the "extra relay" is being activated by one of lugs from that Jones Plug. when the switch closes, it's making a circuit from the "spare transformer" to the top lug of the Jones Plug to the left of the empty one, and what looks like the fuse holder. It's kinda hard to tell where the other brown wire from the "spare transformer" actually terminates in the pic.

#31 6 months ago
Quoted from WOLF:

Well it looks like the "extra relay" is being activated by one of lugs from that Jones Plug. when the switch closes, it's making a circuit from the "spare transformer" to the top lug of the Jones Plug to the left of the empty one, and what looks like the fuse holder. It's kinda hard to tell where the other brown wire from the "spare transformer" actually terminates in the pic.

Correct... I just followed the original jones plug wire in question to the power toggle switch. My guess (purely conjecture at this point) is that one of the original transformer outputs is faulty (or believed to be faulty), and they wired up another transformer to use its non-faulty output. Not sure if that 2nd transformer is even a Williams - lets hope so. I got photos from vipertblck, so we should be able to figure this one out, might take a while!!!

#32 6 months ago

Did you replace any coils? If so, did you cut off the diode, if it had one?

#33 6 months ago

have not replace any coils yet

#34 6 months ago

I've got a Gulfstream to compare, and vipertblck and I are working to wire the game back to its original and proper condition. What will be interesting is to get to the bottom of why anyone would wire in a 2nd transformer, and wire the 50V path of that 2nd transformer (its a Midway Chicoin) to the motor coil! Hopefully we'll find that juicing that 24V motor coil at 2X the normal voltage hasn't had any ill effects; will report back soon as we get through the work required to get this game back to stock and retest.

1 week later
#35 5 months ago
Quoted from Dono:

I've got a Gulfstream to compare, and vipertblck and I are working to wire the game back to its original and proper condition. What will be interesting is to get to the bottom of why anyone would wire in a 2nd transformer, and wire the 50V path of that 2nd transformer (its a Midway Chicoin) to the motor coil! Hopefully we'll find that juicing that 24V motor coil at 2X the normal voltage hasn't had any ill effects; will report back soon as we get through the work required to get this game back to stock and retest.

After reviewing and discussing with "vipertblck", we decided to postpone any rewiring and to take a further look at the rectifier... long story short it checked out as NOT working. New rectifier ordered and installed, now game is working properly. One thing that I did not discuss is a recommendation to install diodes across the pop and kicker coils. Might want to do that!

#36 5 months ago

don beat me to it. game works perfect now; got a set of rectifiers off amazon and that was it. put a new coil on back in the head since it had a broken wire too. thanks to everybody here that helped out and gave me some input. kinda odd the rectifier was bad and didn't blow it's own fuse on the playfield, but after looking at the installation manual I downloaded, it says right there that a bad rectifier could blow the 15A fuse(same one I was blowing)

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