Williams Grand Prix revival

(copied from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wm-s-grand-prix-on-free-play-and-right-bonus-saucer#post-5776951)

The Ball Count Unit should advance each time the last player drains. When that happens is determined by the Coin Unit and Player Unit in the red box. The Coin Unit keeps track of how many players there are and the Player Unit keeps track of which player is currently playing. When the Ball Count Unit advances it fires the Player Reset relay which resets the Player Unit back to player 1.
Grand Prix Player Unit (resized).jpg
It's likely that your Coin Unit isn't resetting or the wiper isn't making contact with the contacts below. The only way the Ball Count advances is if the current player selected by the Player Unit matches the number of players that have paid up.

So for a 1 player game for example the path to the Ball Count Unit Step Up solenoid goes around the Player Unit altogether via the blue-red wire and passes through the coin unit to the red-white wire. On a 2 player game the path to the Ball Count unit goes through the red-yellow wire between the Player Unit and the Coin Unit to the red-white wire.

In your case it sounds like there may be no path through the Coin Unit so the Ball Count Unit never advances.

/Mark

#3 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

thanks mark,

that's pretty in depth; gonna have to re-read that a few times to follow along, but in any regards it sounds like i'll have to a) visually check some wires on those units, and b) do a continuity check on those wires between those units; as well as clean the contacts on those spiders and contact surfaces on both units.

will report back once I get to that part.

#4 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from MarkG:
(copied from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wm-s-grand-prix-on-free-play-and-right-bonus-saucer#post-5776951)
The Ball Count Unit should advance each time the last player drains. When that happens is determined by the Coin Unit and Player Unit in the red box. The Coin Unit keeps track of how many players there are and the Player Unit keeps track of which player is currently playing. When the Ball Count Unit advances it fires the Player Reset relay which resets the Player Unit back to player 1.
[quoted image]
It's likely that your Coin Unit isn't resetting or the wiper isn't making contact with the contacts below. The only way the Ball Count advances is if the current player selected by the Player Unit matches the number of players that have paid up.
So for a 1 player game for example the path to the Ball Count Unit Step Up solenoid goes around the Player Unit altogether via the blue-red wire and passes through the coin unit to the red-white wire. On a 2 player game the path to the Ball Count unit goes through the red-yellow wire between the Player Unit and the Coin Unit to the red-white wire.
In your case it sounds like there may be no path through the Coin Unit so the Ball Count Unit never advances.
/Mark

dug into this a little bit; if I manually trigger the coils on the coin unit; it advances players and lights up accordingly on the head; all the way up to 4 players if I click that many times. this tells me the wipers are making good contact for the circuit. also if I push the reset button on the front of the machine; it will follow along for the numher of players I am selecting; example hit the button 2 times, and it's 2 player.
say I have this on 4 players. go through player 1,2,3,and 4 and once player 4 looses their ball; it spits it back out again and just stays on player 4; never advancing the ball above 1, or going back to player 1.
checked all the wire solder points on the boards and none were broken either..

#5 3 years ago

MarkG

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
if I manually trigger the coils on the coin unit; it advances players and lights up accordingly on the head; all the way up to 4 players if I click that many times. this tells me the wipers are making good contact for the circuit.

That tells you that the Coin Unit is advancing and that 6 volt lighting circuit is working. It doesn't necessarily tell you that the 25 volt solenoid circuit is working.

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
say I have this on 4 players. go through player 1,2,3,and 4 and once player 4 looses their ball; it spits it back out again and just stays on player 4; never advancing the ball above 1, or going back to player 1.

On a 4 player game the Ball Count should reset when player 4 drains using the path in red:
Grand Prix Ball Count Step Up (resized).jpg
You'll need to check the connection through the Player Unit and all the other switches too. Notice that it doesn't care about the Coin Unit in this case because player 4 should always advance the ball count.

#6 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from MarkG:
That tells you that the Coin Unit is advancing and that 6 volt lighting circuit is working. It doesn't necessarily tell you that the 25 volt solenoid circuit is working.

On a 4 player game the Ball Count should reset when player 4 drains using the path in red:
[quoted image]
You'll need to check the connection through the Player Unit and all the other switches too. Notice that it doesn't care about the Coin Unit in this case because player 4 should always advance the ball count.

thanks. ill try and work on that. bare with me here, still learning. have a few questions and things I wanna make sure I understand. from the ball count unit step up coil to the player unit, we're tracing a red/white wire (r-w). but then from the player unit to the ball index relay it's a blue or brown/red wire (b-r), then the ball index relay to the extra ball relay through a (r-n-i) wire, and the extra ball relay to the outhole relay through a (r-g-4) wire, and then out to connect to a yellow wire? is that right?

you mentioned this path is for a 4 player system; where does it signify that?
i'm not the best at wiring diagrams

#7 3 years ago

MarkG

Any time you're trying to figure out why a solenoid or relay coil isn't firing you need to inspect all of the wires and switches that connect the solenoid or coil to the two power rails. In the case of the path shown in reply #5 starting on the left with the yellow wire there is:
- a normally open switch on the Outhole relay that connects to a red-green wire, then
- a normally closed switch on the Extra Ball relay that connects to a red-white white, then
- a normally open switch on the Ball Index relay that connects to a black-red wire (refer to the color chart also on the schematic), then
- a normally open switch on the 1st cam of the Score Motor that connects to a blue-red wire, then
- a wiper arm and contact pair on the Player Unit that connects to a different red-white wire that then
- delivers power to the Ball Count step up solenoid.

Any one of those could prevent the Ball Count from advancing.

The two dashed line boxes represent the wipers and contacts on a step unit that can be in any one of multiple positions.
Grand Prix Ball Count Step Up 2 (resized).jpg
The red double arrow usually represents the position of the step unit wiper in the reset position. On the right is the Coin Unit that is drawn as if the game was started for just one player. If a 2nd player were added you'd have to imagine the double arrow moving down one position to connect the red-yellow and red-white wires. A three player game would instead connect red-green to red white and in a four player game the red-white wire is left unconnected as mentioned in an earlier reply.

On the left is the same kind of drawing for the Player Unit which is drawn as if the 1st player is up. In a multi player game the stepper would advance and the double red arrow would move through the four positions. When player 1 is playing the unit leaves the blue-red wire unconnected. If player 2 is playing the unit instead connects the blue-red wire to to a red-yellow wire and so on.

If you combine the two steppers as they're shown in the schematic you can think of them as a filter that only lets a few of the pulses generated by the remaining switches get to the Ball Count step up solenoid. So in a three player game for example the Ball Count only advances when player three is playing and the Outhole relay fires when he drains. The pulse goes through the red-green wire between the two step units because the Player Unit is in the 3rd position and so is the Coin Unit.

#8 3 years ago

IBS

ibis

Pinside+ Frequent

Winter Haven, FL

11y 63,150 803 18 1

The easiest way to fix this problem is to just sell me one of the two

#9 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from MarkG:
That tells you that the Coin Unit is advancing and that 6 volt lighting circuit is working. It doesn't necessarily tell you that the 25 volt solenoid circuit is working.

On a 4 player game the Ball Count should reset when player 4 drains using the path in red:
[quoted image]
You'll need to check the connection through the Player Unit and all the other switches too. Notice that it doesn't care about the Coin Unit in this case because player 4 should always advance the ball count.

wanted to give an update on this. if i manually do it by hand as i stated, it lights up the head for number of players; and also if i push the reset button on the front of the cabinet, it will also advance to the number of players i select; which would tell us that the coils are working properly for the coin unit, correct? bare with me, still learning and trying to understand. would the coil that is advancing the players when i push the button, be the coil on that 25V circuit?

#10 3 years ago

MarkG

Almost all coils and solenoids are on the 25 volt circuit.

While the Coin Unit may be stepping appropriately, you don't know whether the wipers that it moves (which control other circuits like the Ball Count) are all making good contact.
Maybe it'll
It might be easier to start with the other, simpler switches in the circuit. Start a 1 player game (to reset the game so that it matches the schematic) and then unplug the game. Then check the switches one at a time from left to right.

Clip your meter probes to the lugs on the Outhole relay switch (yellow wire and red-green wire). Manually close the Outhole relay and see if your meter confirms that the switch opens and closes as the relay does. If so move on to the remaining switches and repeat the test for each one.

#11 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from MarkG:
Almost all coils and solenoids are on the 25 volt circuit.
While the Coin Unit may be stepping appropriately, you don't know whether the wipers that it moves (which control other circuits like the Ball Count) are all making good contact.
Maybe it'll
It might be easier to start with the other, simpler switches in the circuit. Start a 1 player game (to reset the game so that it matches the schematic) and then unplug the game. Then check the switches one at a time from left to right.
Clip your meter probes to the lugs on the Outhole relay switch (yellow wire and red-green wire). Manually close the Outhole relay and see if your meter confirms that the switch opens and closes as the relay does. If so move on to the remaining switches and repeat the test for each one.

gotcha, thanks. be away till prolly sunday or Monday next week so will check it then. don't want ya to think i went silent. will go over your past posts and check the things you mentioned as long as i can understand. get back to you after that! thanks again, appreciate all the help and guidance here for a younger guy like me.

#12 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

got into this finally; think the problem is in the player unit. followed the schematic and wires to all the relays and switches and all seemed ok when opening and closing the switches with a continuity check. one thing i noticed is (unless im looking at it wrong), the black/red and blue/red wires that are on the 1st cam, are actually on the second cam wheel. from the left side of the machine closest to the score motor for the cam, it's the second cam wheel in towards the center that had those wires on it. the first wheel closest to the left didn't have those color wires. could the drawing be wrong? second, what tells you that it's the 1st cam? saw it said "1-C", is that what's suppose to signify 1st cam?

anyway i went back to, what i believe is the blue/red wire in the head on the player unit and right beside that is a red/white wire, those have continuity at all times no matter what position the wheel is in. when comparing this to the second machine, there is only continuity between those wires at a certain position of the wheel. so, i'm assuming this means my issue is with the player unit in the back of the head?

#13 3 years ago

MDM

Black_Knight

Vertigo

Blue Ridge, GA

9y 115K 3,065 109 33

It may just be out of adjustment . Make sure the big squares are aligned. You can do this with your hands, no tools required.
This solves 99% of all problems with the different units in this machine.

#14 3 years ago

MarkG

I should have written #1 cam, not 1st cam. There is a complete score motor switch map on the schematic that shows you which cam and where in the stack each switch is.

I'm not sure which wires you're referring to but in the schematic in reply #7, the blue-red wire and the red-white wire are always connected for a 1 player game.

#15 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from Black_Knight:
It may just be out of adjustment . Make sure the big squares are aligned. You can do this with your hands, no tools required.
This solves 99% of all problems with the different units in this machine.

big squares? on the player unit? squares meaning the bakelite pieces?

#16 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from MarkG:
I should have written #1 cam, not 1st cam. There is a complete score motor switch map on the schematic that shows you which cam and where in the stack each switch is.
I'm not sure which wires you're referring to but in the schematic in reply #7, the blue-red wire and the red-white wire are always connected for a 1 player game.

tell me if im wrong, but looking at your schematic now from reply 7 as you mentioned...if i wanted to change it to a 2, 3, or 4 player game; i'd have to change the setting for the spider in the coin unit; meaning advance the spider up so it's connecting a red/yellow to the red/white for a 2 player game as an example. if this is true,i'll have to double check the coin unit was on 1 player; and if so...my last step would be to check the coin unit for a blue/red connecting to a red/white, and then make sure that red/white goes all the way down to the ball count unit coil....i think

#17 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

looking at reply 5, a 4 player game is bypassing the coin unit and connecting the blue/red wire to the red/white wire, correct? this is the same thing that's happening for a 1 player game too though, no? i think where im wrong is that 1 player games don't go through the player unit. so in my post above, when i said the blue/red and red/white wires had continuity in the player unit, regardless of what location the "spider" was in....it must have meant the coin unit was in the 4 player position.

is there a diagram or pictures somewhere that shows the Williams steppers and "spiders" and what position is for what players and so on so forth? i need to make sure i understand what position these things are really in

#18 3 years ago

MarkG

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
meaning advance the spider up so it's connecting a red/yellow to the red/white for a 2 player game as an example.

Correct.

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
looking at reply 5, a 4 player game is bypassing the coin unit and connecting the blue/red wire to the red/white wire, correct?

Only when player 4 is up, not when the first three players are up.

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
this is the same thing that's happening for a 1 player game too though, no?

Correct. Think of it in terms of when you want to advance the ball count. That's when player 1 drains (or every time the ball drains) on a 1 player game, but only when player 4 drains on a 4 player game.

Creating path between blue-red and red-white is what advances the ball count and it only happens when the last player drains, no matter how many players there are. So you should only see low resistance between those two when the last player is up.

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
is there a diagram or pictures somewhere that shows the Williams steppers and "spiders" and what position is for what players and so on so forth? i need to make sure i understand what position these things are really in

Check the manual on ipdb.org. There's lots of excellent info there including diagrams of the steppers.

#19 3 years ago

MDM

Black_Knight

Vertigo

Blue Ridge, GA

9y 115K 3,065 109 33

OP
Quoted from vipertblck:
big squares? on the player unit? squares meaning the bakelite pieces?

Yes the bakelite pieces. If they are off slightly you get weird behavior where some positions work and others don't. Could be what you are describing. For example, if you set the pf down on the end of the cabinet with the bonus stepper bakelight (like we all have) it will get out of alignment and never reset to 0.

Visually inspect your steppers and spiders. Start at position 0, are all the contacts lined up? Advance one position. Are they still lined up? Keep advancing until it returns. Honestly it doesn't matter what the contacts do, you will just see them get out of alignment as it advances. Take your time and look close. It should be obvious which contacts are position 0, but use the manual if you need to.

Don't disassemble until you have played around with these. Trust me on this.

#20 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

looking at the instruction manual on p. 16, the player unit. the "blu-r" & "r-w" wires I referred to in the above posts, are shown at the very top left of the page in the instruction manual. located on the upper terminal strip. back to the original chase; the coin unit is in the reset mode with the middle spider directly at 12 o clock position, assuming this is 1 player...go back to player unit and continuity check the blue/red and red/white wires I mentioned, they have continuity. now give 1 click to advance the coin unit, the middle finger moves counter clockwise from 12 o clock (assuming this is 2 player), now the blue/red and red/white wires on the player unit do NOT have continuity. move it all the way to the end, assuming that's 4 players and it has no continuity which I thought It should as we're joining those wires together then for 1 and 4 players?

going back to reply 7 and following the troubleshooting circuit again, the red/white wire coming out of the player unit should do directly to the ball count step up solenoid, it does and those have continuity. this same red/white wire also is on the coin unit (p. 15 shown on the left of the unit), it also has continuity with the red/white wire on the player unit and the red/white wire on the step up solenoid on the ball count unit.

visually lookin at the bakelite pieces on the player unit, they looks to be straight and will NOT move by hand when I try to turn or adjust

what am I missing here? seems like everything is ok or connected? the step up solenoid has 2.8 ohms

#21 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

**UPDATE**

while I was checking things I had a hard time with the leaf stack switches in the cam area, I cleaned them really good to make sure I was getting an accurate continuity test; maybe this helped. anyway now it seems that after the credited number of players finishes and it's time to go back to player 1 for their 2nd ball, it does it's reset thing and just keeps spinning the cam and resetting the playfield. the head does NOT reset the player scores though, seems it only does this for the 2nd ball in play. while it's doing this going bazerk, if I manually kick up the solenoid on the ball count unit to the 3rd ball, it stops.

#22 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

If the Ball Count Unit Stepup solenoid doesn't activate when the ball drains on a 1 player game, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
Starting with the Coin Unit wiper and rivets
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

pasted_image (resized).png

#23 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
If the Ball Count Unit Stepup solenoid doesn't activate when the ball drains on a 1 player game, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
Starting with the Coin Unit wiper and rivets
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
[quoted image]

that's basically what we just did so far. on a 1 player game for example it will drain that ball and the step up coil on the ball count unit DOES step up, I watched the spider rotate, and the head illuminates "2" ball in play. but when this happens is when it starts going nuts with resetting the playfield and spinning the cam non stop, continuously. if I manually click the step up coil again on the ball count unit (so now we're at "3" ball in play, it will stop and let you play

#24 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

If the Player Reset relay doesn't activate when the Ball Count Unit reset solenoid activates, check the end-of-stroke switch on the Ball Count unit.

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#25 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

issue the games having is with the ball count unit it seems. all the fingers look like they're making good contact and when I probe the solder joint to the finger that aligns with it, I have continuity. everything seems to play ok but it's when it changes to ball number 2 is where the issue comes. I restarted the machine so it was all reset, even going down and triggering the step up coil on the ball count (to ball number 2) the problem exists. kick it again to ball number 3 and it stops.

to me, it's saying that somewhere in the "ball number 2" circuit, is making everything on the playfield keep resetting and score motor cam continuously spin.

#26 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member

wanted to give another update for more guidance. when ball count unit advances to ball 2 in play and the score motor starts spinning and the playfield continuously resets, we have 2 points of contact on the spider on the ball count unit; the left and the right arms. the left arm is on a black/yellow wire, and the right arm is on a green jumper wire that essentially is a green/red wire. if I gently lift the right arm on the spider and break that circuit, the resetting stops....tells me my problem is somewhere from the ball count unit to wherever that green/red wire goes!

#27 3 years ago

???

vipertblck

Pinside member