(Topic ID: 204733)

*SOLVED*-Williams Grand Prix One Score reel not reseting

By HD_Fatboy

6 years ago


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  • 76 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by HD_Fatboy
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There are 76 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 6 years ago

Hi Rolf,

Thanks again,

When a ball lands in left hole, nothing happens. no scoring and no kickout. I check the switch directly under the hole and the contacts are being made when a ball is in the hole. I think it has something to do with the bonus units.

When ball lands in right hole both left and right hole fires there kickout coils and points are awarded.

#52 6 years ago

Hi HD-Fatboy
here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1072/Williams_1976_Grand_Prix_Manual.pdf on page-12 (ori-10) I can see where the relays and steppers are mounted --- the Left Bonus Relay and the Right Bonus Relay are mounted on the underneathside of the playfield. Lift the playfield - actuate the RIGHT Eject-Hole-Switch - see how the RIGHT Bonus Relay pulls-in ?
Wait till the right bonus is done - THEN try: Manually activate the LEFT Bonus Relay - what happens ? It is late again - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#53 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi HD-Fatboy
Lift the playfield - actuate the RIGHT Eject-Hole-Switch - see how the RIGHT Bonus Relay pulls-in ?
Wait till the right bonus is done - THEN try: Manually activate the LEFT Bonus Relay - what happens ? It is late again - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

Yes when RIGHT hole is actuated, RIGHT Bonus Relay pulls in.
When LEFT hole is actuated Left Bonus relay DOES NOT pull in.

I check switches and they seem correct. I do not know if this is related, but I notice change relay is always pulled in when pin has power.

#54 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
an add-on to my post-52: You have lifted the playfield and probably with a finger You have simulated "Ball is in the RIGHT Eject-Hole" - and You have seen the pulling-in of the RIGHT Bonus-Relay.
THEN You do the same on the LEFT - put the finger there so the switch is closed - unfortunately no pulling-in of the left Bonus Relay. Well, we are allowed to cheat a bit - to help a bit --- we can carefully press the armature on the relay (simulate "coil is pulling so the armature is moved") --- so You must use both hands - one hand / finger simulates "Ball is in the Eject-Hole" - keep-on closing the switch --- the other hand / finger / maybe an wooden stick: You press the armature on the relay and let go --- does the relay stays pulling and You have action ? What when You manually press for +/- five seconds ?

About "reading schematics" --- HOW does a ONE-Player-Game steps through the balls in an Williams / Bally (NOT: Gottlieb) FOUR-Player-Pin (?) - want to read the description here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-fun-fest-issueshelp#post-4125681 . Greetings Rolf

#55 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
an important remark - Your (post-53): "Change-Relay is constantly pulling". It is allowed and must for quite a while to "stay pulling" - after a while it should quit pulling and stay for quite a while "non-pulling". Before I dig into the schematics --- the ipdb-manual at page-12 (ori-10) tells me "Number Match Unit is mounted on the Insert in the Backbox" --- it looks like my Space-Mission-Unit - see the first JPG. The second JPG is a copy of a page from here: http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK - make You an link to this site --- VERY helpful stuff. The green arrows in both JPGs are pointing "same direction". When You make 10 points on the playfield: This Unit must step one step --- another 10 points - another step on the unit. DOES the unit step in Your pin when You make some 10 points ? You can carefully press the armature on the unit (wear rubber gloves or use a wooden stick) and then let go - can You step the unit ?
Look at the second JPG - "my letters O and P" --- You have the "my O-type of axis" in Your Unit --- see the first JPG - "my green 3" mounted on the axis sometimes lift a blade "my green 4" so the blade makes contact with "my green 5 blade" --- AND WHEN there is contact: Your Change-Relay pulls constantly --- when there is NO contact: the Change-Relay does not pull. Tell me about the No-Match-Unit in Your pin. Greetings Rolf

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#56 6 years ago

Hello Rolf,

As Always Thanks
I am currently at work, I will answer #54 and #55 when I get home, which is really close to your bedtime.
I also figured out, on the bonus relays I need to prepare some bonus points for testing, because the more bonus points the longer the relay is pulled in.

I will post in about 3 1/2 hours.

#57 6 years ago

Hi Rolf,

I did the tests, when I hold ball kickout switch, and try to force relay coil in to energize it does not work. when I hold it in for 5 seconds it still does not work.

When I put bonus points on pin, and than manually activate left bonus relay it stays energized until it count down the bonus points.

#58 6 years ago

Post #55 when I make 10's score the match unit steps up, it also release change relay at times.

#59 6 years ago

Rolf, Good News! for now pin seems to be 100% working. I cleaned and adjusted player unit for the third time (they say third time is a charm)
I also had to adjust switch on coin unit to coin up 4 players.

Thanks for all your posts in this I learned very much!

Lets hope it stays this way after I shop it

#60 6 years ago

Well, I shoppesd pin today, and when I was done deciding to play a game.

Left Kickout quit working again, and when game is done, and game over light is lit you can keep right on playing????????
and I don't think I got a match light at the end.

will be trying tio correct these things, if anyone has any suggestions I am all ears.

Thanks!

#61 6 years ago

OK game over relay latch coil is staying activated, even started to smoke.

#62 6 years ago
Quoted from HD_Fatboy:

OK game over relay latch coil is staying activated, even started to smoke.

Check these 3 switches

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#63 6 years ago

Hi Howard thanks, I check those switches, they seem OK
Question? After a game, is the game over latch coil supposed to stay energized?

Schematics show latch relay is con trolled by the lock relay, which is always on when pin is on

#64 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
a general rule on Pinball-Coils is: The flipperbat-POWER-Coil is allowed to stay pulling for up to one - maybe up to two seconds. After that it may overheat and will get dead - we must buy a new coil.
a general rule on Pinball-Coils is: All other coils on relay and steppers are allowed to stay pilling up to one minute - maybe up to two minutes. After that it may overheat and will get dead - we must buy a new coil.
a general rule on Pinball-Coils is: The Williams-Lock-Relay / Gottlieb-Hold-Relay and Tilt-Hold-Relay / Bally various names-relay: These relays have a special coil - they can stay pulling for hours (((they get hot and the envelopping paper gets brown --- after 20,30,40,50 years of "beeing mounted in a pin": We must buy a replacement coil)))

In post-61 You write: "Game-Over-Relay-LATCH-Coil getrs hot and smokes" - I hope You still can use the coil - BUT: Do not let it stay pulling for more than the 1 to 2 minutes - in Your situation (maybe half destroyed): NOT more then 1 to 5 seconds.
Look at the JPG - the upper part - I showed this part already in (post-30 and) post-42. Maybe You have established Jumper-Wires to this LATCH coil - have forgotten about and by now You have an unwanted "permanent connection" ? Greetings Rolf

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#65 6 years ago

Hi Rolf,

No Jumpers are installed at this time.

What would explain still being able to play pin in game over mode?

#66 6 years ago

Hi HD-Fatboy
You must do someting so Your Game-Over-Relay-LATCH-Coil cannot constanty pull - otherwise You end up buying a new coil. One side of the coil has (most likely) two wires "black" soldered-on. The other side has one wire of color-orange-blue soldered-on. Unsolder wire-orange-blue away from the coil - or cut the wire.
When I look at the JPG in here I see "Total Playmeter" and "Coin Unit Reset" and "Game-Over-Relay-LATCH" and "Ball-Count-Unit Reset" and "Player-Unit Reset" --- along "my red / orange marks": A possible way to let the Game-Over-LATCH-Coil constantly fire. Also along "my brown / orange marks" --- so one question is: Does one or more of the mentioned stuff also constantly pull ? The other question is: In the schematics I see "Game-Over-LATCH Coil" is "Z-27-1000" Coil --- in Your pin is it the "Z-27-1000" coil faulty constantly pulling ?

More details in "Theory to come" --- look at the JPG in post-32 - powerside connection --- it is drawn "ready to play" all switches in the top horizontal line are closed - POWER can run to ALL the coils (towards right right right to the flipperbats) - You can play. Your Game-Over-Relay does faulty not move to Game-Over - does therefore not open its switch (in this Power-line-connection) - so You still can move the flipperbats. Greetings Rolf

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#67 6 years ago

I unsoldered the wire you requested me to unsolder. flippers and scoring still work, and without that wire, of course game never ends.

#68 6 years ago

I am sorry Rolf, It is the trip coil M-27-800 coil that is always pulling, Sorry I got my coil names wrong.

The manual says this coil should be M-29-1000 I do not know if this matters. I put the wire back on the latch relay coil.

#69 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
hihi - Your post-68 came in --- as I am an great inventor I do post what I was "in progress of writing an post":
All the Interlock-Type-Relays have two coils mounted and the Game-Over-Relay is the Standard-Example to talk about such Interlock-Type-Relays. I made me an mnemonic aid:
"TRIP" (Coil) is a word of four letters
"LATCH" (Coil) is a word of five letters
"Four" is one less then "Five" - therefore on the armature of the TRIP (four letter word) side is monted "One less" then on the armature of the LATCH (five letter word) side:
LATCH armature has mounted an Nylon-Ladder
Trip has mounted (one less means) ZERO Nylon-Ladder.
Greetings Rolf

P.S.: A post to come about "TRIP-Coil constanty pulling"

#70 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
the "Game-Over-TRIP-Coil" is constantly pulling --- lets look at the lower part of the JPG in post-64. Lets do by now just "troubleshooting" - I encircled "burgundy-red" the coil and also an switch on the relay --- wire-color-black and wire-blue-yellow-white are soldered-on. When the relay is TRIPPED: Switch must be open --- question: In Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

#71 6 years ago

Rolf, Thanks so much, That switch was stuck. now working correctly. We are back to last problem. Left Kick out hole not always working.

Is this tied into the Left Bonus unit? Right now the advance coil is unsoldered and out of the pin. The metal sleeve inside the coil was stuck inside, and coil was not firing correctly. I have a new coil on order.

#72 6 years ago

Hi HD-Fatboy
great - You could fix the "Game-Over-Relay" fault.
The "Left Bonus Problem" --- You hav a coil out of the pin - I would like to wait until You have the ordered stuff and have put the coil back into place --- see in post-50, JPG: The Left Bonus Unit should be stepped down by the coil - then my "green wiring" can actuate the Eject Relay.

While waiting for Your replacement stuff to come - lets do some "Theory, reading schematics".
In post-63 You were asking about the "Switch on Lock-Relay and (corrigenda) TRIP-Coil on the Game-Over-Relay". Lets go back in time to the "arcade rooms" in the 1960/70ies --- Saturday Night - many players were playing on many pins. A thunderstorm - and a lightning struck the local power station - a Blackout --- the Operator said "O.K. folks - everybody is going home". The Operator toggled-off all the pins. The next morning (powerstation fixed) the operator walks from pin to pin and toggles-on --- AND HE EXPECTS ALL PINS to be / to switch to GAME-OVER. Some pins were in the midth of a play*** - some has JUST been started - no ball played***) - as the operator toggles-on: The TRIP-Coil on the Game-Over-Relay must fire - the relay must TRIP.

See on the bottom on the JPG in post-64: When we play games and play games --- the "A" makes the game end - making the relay to TRIP.
At these times - people with a lot of money may have played just one ball - then said "What a lousy first ball - I / we do not want to play the rest of the balls - I / we start a NEW game" - so the starting makes the "B" pull-in - either the "C" or the "D" is closed (a ball has been played so either there was stepping on the ball (ONE-Player-Game) or then stepping on the Player-Unit (2,3,4 player game) - the Game-Over-Relay is TRIPPED for to start a new game.
And the "E" is for the "Thunderstorm and a lightning" situation: I do not really like the solution the manufacturer made - the switch "E" is adjusted "opening very LATE" when the Lock-Relay pulls-in --- a short period of time (Lock-Relay starting to pull-in): Current is flowing, Switch "E" is still closed - THE Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is made to pull-in. Yes, this works - but the Switch "E" must be adjusted " to open LATE when the armature is moved.

Maybe You have read the above and say: (Thunderstorm situation) Midth of a game*** then the Switch "C" or "D" are closed - the starting a new game by the player makes the Game-Over-Relay to TRIP - Yes - but the toggling-on by the operator would make the pin resume on the situation "the day before - pin in play".
Maybe You have read the above and say: (Thunderstorm situation) No ball played***: At the time the blackout occured - Player-1 was PLAYING ball-1 - he has made points - but ball was still in play (when the blackout occured) - there was no stepping on the ball. Greetings Rolf

#73 6 years ago

Thanks Rolf, all you post is very good information, and educational. Do you know anything about shuffle bowlers, or only pins?

#74 6 years ago

Hi HD_Fatboy
I know nothing about shuffle bowlers. Write if You have other problems in Your pin - write when You got the replacement stuff. Greetings Rolf

#75 6 years ago

Rolf, I will write when my parts come, hehehehe left kickout worked again one time, so I am not dreaming it happen.

#76 6 years ago

Rolf,

I got my parts, Took apart bonus unit and cleaned, reset wiper fingers, and now kickout hole works every time.

Thanks many times over for all your help. How do you mark thread as solved?

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