(Topic ID: 161191)

Williams Grand Prix


By Mikespinball

4 years ago



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  • 6 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by Thunder90
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

Hello, First off I have been working on pinball machines for over 12 years now, but not much EM's. I acquired a Williams Grand Prix EM machine. Can't resist a free pinball machine even through it was not working. Not too long off I did get it working, but having one last problem I can't seem to fix and am asking for some help. Here is what its doing. Starts a one two or more player games fine, clears all scores and goes into play mode. After the first ball drains it then goes to player two, three and four. Even through you have not selected a second player or third etc. Never goes to the second ball. But if I move the ball in play to second ball, it will finish a game, no mater players in play. Will finish what you had selected. What must I do to get it to end ball 1 and move to ball two. I think I know it deals with the player, ball or coin unit, as these do move during other ball number changes. What contact is not just set right? Thanks for any help/light you can shed on this. Mike Willett

#2 4 years ago

So, let's see if I have this straight. If you press the start button once for a 1-player game, it will boot up completely and pump ball 1 into the shooter lane. After you play and lose ball 1, the machine then goes to Player 2, ball 1? Then to Player 3 and Player 4? What happens when you lose the ball on Player 4?

I would start by inspecting the operation of the Player and Coin Units on the cabinet bottom board. Those two units have to work flawlessly for proper ball count and player count operation. Check to see if you can manually work the advance solenoid plunger for each unit and they will step the spider to the next set of contacts and stop the spider arms centered on the contacts. Also check to see if any wires are fractured off either the Player or Coin units. Sometimes the spider will be off center on the contacts and wonky behavior will result.

L

#3 4 years ago

I more or less agree- I would bet its not wiring, its not really wonky behavior- its just stuck.

What do the lights that indicate the number of players tell you, they are on the front right bottom of the glass in the head- do they indicate a 1,2,3 or 4 player game? I bet 4-

Those lights and the ball in play light are controlled by two different steppers, it could be that the ball unit stepper is grimy and stuck in the ball 1 position-. If its indicating a 4 player game every time, then the stepper unit for that is stuck on 4. I would bet a fair bit you have some disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly in your future. Your lucky the game starts so well, it could be worse!

The steppers are fairly obvious and if you have instructions for the game it will be fairly clear how they work, but if its your first EM, it may take a little playing to figure them out. I own this game and have been through every assembly and had them stripped down to pieces. Take a lot of photos, and take the stepper out of the game (leave the piece with the wires soldered to it in the game and the coils- you can then work on the rest). Its just some screws.... and a lot of photos from every angle...

Its almost certainly not a bent wiper, or wiring fault, its just stuck. Very common, these things never should be lubed- and inevitably over the last 40+ years someone ends up spraying it with WD-40 and it seizes up. Clean it to dry metal, read the myriad threads about lubrication (don't but for a very few spots), and put it all back together.

#4 4 years ago

Hi Mike +
I am not sure if I do fully understand Your description. If Your pin does what I read out of it: Non-pleasing miracle.

Please do the following and report "different behaviour":
You start a new game -> reset of Score-Drums is done, also: Coin-Unit-, Player-Unit-, Ball-Count-Unit-RESET-COIL FIRE. In the Backglass You see: "1 can play", Ball-1 in play", 1st player up".
You press the Credit-Button again. In the Backglass it only changes to "2 can play".
You press the Credit-Button again. In the Backglass it only changes to "3 can play".
Player-1 plays ball-1 -> he makes some points -> Ball-Index-Relay (cabinet) pulls-in and keeps-on pulling. Player-1 looses ball-1 -> the pin steps:
AAA: Player-1-Ball-1 or BBB: Player-1-Ball-2 or CCC: Player-2-Ball-1 or DDD: Player-2-Ball-2 or EEE: Your description.

Start a new game -> You press the Credit-Button again -> You press the Credit-Button again -> In the Backglass is visible "3 can play".
You MANUALLY step the Ball-Count-Unit UP ONE STEP -> Backglass shows "3 can play", "Ball-2 in play", "1st player up".
Player-1 plays ball-2 -> he makes some points -> Ball-Index-Relay (cabinet) pulls-in and keeps-on pulling. Player-1 looses ball-2 -> the pin steps:
FFF: Player-1-Ball-2 or GGG: Player-1-Ball-3 or HHH: Player-2-Ball-2 or III: Player-2-Ball-3 or JJJ: Your description.

I show a snippet of ipdb-schema - to me: Position of Ball-Count-Unit has NO effect on "pin steps forward to ...". The ONLY influence I can think of is: "End-of-Stroke-Switch on Ball-Count-Unit-step-UP" -> either the Player-Reset-Relay pulls-in (and stays pulling) OR Player-Reset-Relay does not pull-in, and so: Either Player-Unit-UP fires OR Player-Unit-RESET fires. Greetings Rolf

zzGrand-Prix-Work1-complex_(resized).jpg

#5 4 years ago

OK, thanks everyone for the replies. I finely got some time to look at this again. Sorry everyone it appears I was not all the way clear on what was happening. So lets try this again.
1) Credits are on the display.
2) Push start button.
3) Machine clears all display scores, resets number of players and ball in play to 1 and kicks first ball into play.
4) At this time you could add additional players, (does add additional players if wanted), but lets just stay with one player at this time.
5) Play and scores find until the end of ball 1.
6) Ball 1 ends, machine adds up end of ball points, kicks ball back out and then moves to player 2 instead of ball 2.
7) This continues to happen to player 3 and then player 4. It then just stays on player 4 and never ends.
8) Game never wants to go to ball 2, but if I move the ball unit from ball 1 to ball 2 during testing or playing it will finish a game to the end.

Here is what I have done since we last talked:
Cleaned the following:
1) Ball unit - making sure wiper arms are touching the correct contacts as it moves - this was done on all of the following units.
2) Coin unit
3) Player unit - was completely dissembled, cleaned and reinstalled/tested.
4) Relays related to this section of the machine, making sure touching and wiping process looks good.

After all of this machine continues to do the same process as of above.

I did start trying to watch the process with the playfield up to see if I can tell what was happening during end of ball 1. Did find this interesting. I am able to activate ball index relay (this simulates a score) then activate outhole relay. Machine ends ball and play and should move to the next ball. I can see the ball unit activate, but its not enough to actually move it from ball 1 to ball 2. This works fine if on ball 2, 3, 4 and 5 to end the game.

I feel like the machine has a gremlin in it! Anyhow....

I never did do anything with the motor and contacts, could this be where I am needing to look?
Let me know what you think.
Again thanks for the help.

Mike Willett

3 years later
#6 7 months ago
Quoted from Mikespinball:

OK, thanks everyone for the replies. I finely got some time to look at this again. Sorry everyone it appears I was not all the way clear on what was happening. So lets try this again.
1) Credits are on the display.
2) Push start button.
3) Machine clears all display scores, resets number of players and ball in play to 1 and kicks first ball into play.
4) At this time you could add additional players, (does add additional players if wanted), but lets just stay with one player at this time.
5) Play and scores find until the end of ball 1.
6) Ball 1 ends, machine adds up end of ball points, kicks ball back out and then moves to player 2 instead of ball 2.
7) This continues to happen to player 3 and then player 4. It then just stays on player 4 and never ends.
Game never wants to go to ball 2, but if I move the ball unit from ball 1 to ball 2 during testing or playing it will finish a game to the end.
Here is what I have done since we last talked:
Cleaned the following:
1) Ball unit - making sure wiper arms are touching the correct contacts as it moves - this was done on all of the following units.
2) Coin unit
3) Player unit - was completely dissembled, cleaned and reinstalled/tested.
4) Relays related to this section of the machine, making sure touching and wiping process looks good.
After all of this machine continues to do the same process as of above.
I did start trying to watch the process with the playfield up to see if I can tell what was happening during end of ball 1. Did find this interesting. I am able to activate ball index relay (this simulates a score) then activate outhole relay. Machine ends ball and play and should move to the next ball. I can see the ball unit activate, but its not enough to actually move it from ball 1 to ball 2. This works fine if on ball 2, 3, 4 and 5 to end the game.
I feel like the machine has a gremlin in it! Anyhow....
I never did do anything with the motor and contacts, could this be where I am needing to look?
Let me know what you think.
Again thanks for the help.
Mike Willett

Just picked up a Grand Prix today that is having a very similar issue. Doesn’t want to seem to go to ball 2 whether it is a 1 or 4 player game.
Did you ever figure this out? I haven’t gotten started on it yet, but if you found a solution I would be happy to have the info going in.

Added 7 months ago:

Fixed

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