(Topic ID: 139901)

Williams Full House ball eject

By tferr

6 years ago


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  • 25 posts
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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by HowardR
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#1 6 years ago

Hello all.. New member with his first post. I just picked up a 1966 Williams Full House. I am pretty stoked to clean it up and bring it back to life. It seems to be working ok but a little soft on the some of the bumpers.
My main issue is the ball eject doesn't work at all Has anyone had this problem and or repaired this problem?
Thanks in advance for any help

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#2 6 years ago

Hi tferr
welcome to pinside.com. "Full House" is a nice looking pin. I do not own one - I own a Shangri-La and a Jolly Roger.
In Switzerland One-Player-Pins are rare - I have never worked on one.

Great, ipdb has a Schema: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=961 -> 5 MB PDF Schematic Diagram. To have a look at the schema I must make a copy onto my computer: "Right-Handside-Mouseclick" -> Save Target as -> then looking at my copy on my computer.
From left to right there are numbers on the bottom of the schema 1 2 3 ... 20 21 22. Bottom to top the letters A B C D E F G.

From Your post-1 I read "Can play a ball when manually put it to the shooter lane". I assume: After playing that ball it rolls into the Outhole --- nothing happens.
I assume: You start a game -> Reset (of Score-Reels) is done - nothing happens.

To transport the ball over to the Shooter-Lane the "Ball Release Coil" (schema 9-F) should fire.
Lets start at 6-D and look for the connection. (Transformer -> wire-yellow -> a Make-and-Brake-Switch-on Reset-Relay -> wire-brown-yellow-white -> (9-D) a Switch-on-Tilt-Relay connecting with wire-red. Upwards -> Switch-on-Outhole-Relay -> wire-Blue -> the "Ball Count Step Up Unit". Up (through connection "1") -> wire-Blue-Orange -> Score-Motor-Switch-4A -> wire-blue-white -> "Coil Ball-Release (9-G)" -> wire-black -> -> -> to the left to the transformer (the POWER-Side of the transformer). ATTENTION: When the pin is running: ALL (most) COILS are under current ! (Because there are switches that are open: the coil does not fire)

Somewhere in that path - one (2, 3 ..) Switch is not closed / contact-points-on-switch are oxidated / a wire has broken off - we must find.
As Your bumpers work: I assume: "Switch-on-Reset-Relay and Switch-on-Tilt-Relay" are closed.
Please have a look at and report: At the time (when the ball should be transported): Does the Outhole-Relay PULL ? Is its Switch closing ? / contacts clean ? wire-red and wire-blue soldered-on ?

When (at end of Reset-Cycle) the Score-Motor turns: Look at schema 14-B: (The "Index-Wheel is closest to the MOTOR, the "Impulse-Wheel" is far away from the Motor) -> See the text on the Switch-A on Wheel-4 "Pulses Ball Release Coil" ?
Does the Motor turn ? does this switch closes ? Contacts clean ? wire-blue-white soldered-on ? wire-blue-orange soldered-on ?
By now (starting the investigtion) DO NOT BEND the contact-blades on Score-Motor (hard to get at / easy to "faulty-bending").
By now: Have a look at these places and report. We might have to use Jumper-Wires to check for (faulty) connection. Greetings Rolf

#3 6 years ago

Wow Thanks for the excellent trouble shooting post. I will print off your email and print off the schematic and work my way through your advice
Thanks again
Tom

#4 6 years ago

Hi Tom
the main question is: Does the Outhole-RELAY pulls (at the time the ball should be transported) ?
When the ball lays in the Outhole - it depress a metal "thick wire" -> on the "underneath side of the playfield" a blade is moved -> two blades (the switch) should close -> current can flow to the "Coil of Outhole-RELAY".

Unplug the 110 VAC Line Cord !!! Raise the playfield and look at this switch - wires soldered on ? contacts clean ? Put Your finger in the Outhole (simulating: the ball lays there): does the switch close ? (Line Cord is unplugged) Practice: Put the tip of a screwdriver there making contact (because the tip of the screwdriver touches both blades) - You "short" this switch.
(Line Cord is unplugged) Raise the playfield and take a wooden (or plastic) stick and practice: Gently push onto the anchor plate of the Outhole-RELAY (You simulate: Coil of Outhole-RELAY gets initial current and starts pulling). DO NOT TAKE A METAL STICK - put the stick only onto the anchor plate. A ruler from school is fine for this.

After Y practiced a bit - lower the playfield and put the ball into the Outhole. Plug in and start a game -> -> -> take the ball out, raise the playfield -> "short" the switch underneath the playfield (screwdriver) and watch the Outhole-RELAY -> Does it pull ?
If the Outhole-RELAY does not pull -> put Your finger in the Outhole (closing that switch) and with the wooden stick push onto the anchor plate of Outhole-RELAY and shortly afterwards let go -> some reaction ? or none ? Please report. Greetings Rolf

#5 6 years ago

Thanks Rolf
When the ball is in the kickout slot and I make the switch activate..with power on ...nothing happens except the (control motor?) goes round and round until I shut off the power. I think this is the control motor in the second picture
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#6 6 years ago

I would guess that means the coil in that first picture is no good ...correct?

#7 6 years ago

Hi Tom
the "coil in the first picture" is the "Ball Release Coil". ipdb.org has a Manual: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/961/Williams_1966_Full_House_Parts_Sheet_submitted_by_Steve_Corley.pdf -> page-1 -> A22-550 Ball Release Coil. Such "old pins" do not have a complete manual - the description of the "Outhole-RELAY" is missing in the manual.
The Outhole-RELAY should get active and by "getting active / pulling": Outhole-Relay closes a switch -> Score-Motor starts running -> a switch on Score-Motor (shortly afterwards) let current flow to the Ball-Release-Coil -> Ball-Release-Coil fires and transports the ball to the Shooter-Lane.

Look in the cabinet (maybe in the backbox, maybe underneath the playfield) for "Outhole-RELAY" the coil is "Z-27-1000".
I doubt that ONLY the Score-Motor starts turning (when You make a short on the Outhole-SWITCH).
Please look for the Outhole-RELAY (Z-27-1000) and write about (pulling or not pulling) ?

And once You have found the Outhole-RELAY: Do the test with the "wooden Stick" (pushing onto the anchor plate of Outhole-RELAY) - and report.
No hurry on buying coils - we will have a look at the old ones ...

It is now time "00:45" in Switzerland - I go to sleep ... Greetings Rolf

#8 6 years ago

Hey Rolf
So I found the Outhole relay as you said. below the playfield. It is "pulling" to close the contacts when the hole switch is activated....one of the switches is arcing pretty good but it is closing I may clean it up with a little emery cloth

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#9 6 years ago

Hi Tom
Great - You found the Outhole-Relay - and it does pull.
I refer to my post-2 -> schema at 9-D / 9-E: When the relay does pull (among others) this switch does close: It has (according to the schema) a wire-color-Red soldered-on. It has a wire-color-Blue soldered-on. Your pic (post-8) does not show the wires ...

The wire-Blue runs to the "Ball-Count-Step-Up-Unit". Can you find the "Switch on Outhole-Relay" and the "wire-Blue". IS ON THE BALL-COUNT-STEP-UP-UNIT also a wire-Blue (exactly same color) soldered-on ? Or has the wire-Blue broken-off and the end of this wire is within a couple of inches ?

Through this Unit -> wire-color-Blue-Orange (do You see this wire on the Unit ?) -> "Score-Motor-Switch-4A (look at, but do not bend blades IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SURE "SCM-4A IS FAULTY") -> WIRE-Blue-White -> Ball-Release-Coil.

Look at all these switches / wires - (((I assume the fault is in the Ball-Count-Step-Up-Unit))).
If You do not find the error: we will start testing with a Jumper-Wire / -Cable. Handy is: A jumper-Wire with gator-clips at both ends - we also can use a simple wire with "blank ends" (no gator-clips). Greetings Rolf

#10 6 years ago

Hey Rolf
I checked all the wires I didn't find any that weren't soldered on. I wiggled all the wires and advanced the ball count unit. Once that was done I started the machine back up and it began operating the ball kick out over and over and over. I shut it down advanced the ball count unit again started it up and it is back to normal not activating ball the kick out.
I have attached a pic can you confirm this is the ball count step up unit

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#11 6 years ago

Im an idiot ...Once I posted I now see the label on the unit

#12 6 years ago

Hi Tom
great, the Ball-Release-coil fires (it only should fire once). It is at schema-G-9. The Outhole-Relay (coil) is at G-20.

-ALPHA-
Lets look at the long horizontal Wire-Red at schema-D-20 upwards through a Normally-Closed "switch on Score-Motor-Wheel-Ind-A" (The Ind(ex)-Wheel is "closest to the Motor") -> wire-Green-Red -> Switch named "Outhole-Switch" -> wire-Green -> Coil-on-Outhole-Relay. THIS CONNECTION is working - The Outhole-Relay pulls. AFTER the ball is kicked over: "Outhole-Switch" MUST open to cut this connection, The Outhole-Switch is underneath the Outhole (between the flippers). I assume: this switch does open (question: does it really open ? blades bent (faulty contact) ? Drop of solder there making "faulty contact" ? I assume this side is good.

-BETA-
THERE (just to a bit to the right) is ANOTHER CONNECTION FEEDING THE "Coil on Outhole-Relay": Long horizontal wire-Red (D-20) upwards -> "Switch on Score-Motor-Wheel-5-Position-A (at the bottom of the Switchstack)" -> wire-Green-Yellow -> "Switch on Outhole-Relay***" -> "Coil on Outhole-Relay.
This is the "Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Outhole Relay": When the Motor turns and (finally) opens SCM-5A: The Outhole-Relay looses connection -> gets inactive and by that opens its "Self-Hold-Switch on Outhole-Relay***" -> the Score-Motor keeps on turning and closes again SCM-5A BUT the Self-Hold-Switch*** is open -> the Outhole-Relay STAYS inactive.

Bring Your pin into state "Ball Release Coil fires (intermittently). Important question: AAA: Does the Outhole-Relay fires intermittently ? <-> BBB: The Outhole-Relay is pulling constantly.
IF (if) You have situation BBB: SCM-5A does not open.
If You have situation AAA: SCM-5A is good, the problem is on -ALPHA-.

Please look and report (I can not garantee - the problem can be elsewhere). Greetings Rolf

#13 6 years ago

Hi Tom
I am not happy with my post-12. Please (only) read my description (it is OK) - then do the following and report on it:

Bring the pin into state "Ball Release Coil fires intermittently":
Start a game -> as soon as the Ball Release coil fires the first time: Take Your finger away from the Outhole (You simulate: Ball leaves the Outhole towards the Shooter Lane).
What does the Ball Release coil do ?
What does the Outhole-Relay do ?

Please write about "firing intermittently" and/or "pulling steady" (Ball Release Coil / Outhole Relay).
Sure, You can look at the switches i mentioned in post-12 - but do not bend (yet) blades on Score-Motor.
Just look at Score-Motor-Index-Wheel-Switch-A (bottom of stack), Score-Motor-Wheel-5-Switch-A (bottom of stack), "Outhole-Switch (underneath Outhole, underneath the playfield)", "Self-Hold-Switch on Outhole-Relay***".
The "Self-Hold-Switch***" is easy to be found: A wire runs from one side (of the coil) to a "Switch mounted on the Relay" (usually it is on the bottom of the switchstack) - THIS is the "Self-Hold-Switch***". Greetings Rolf

1 week later
#14 6 years ago

Hey Rolf Sorry to have dropped off the topic. I have some pretty bad back issues which is why I have changed my hobby of restoring cars to restoring pinball machines. I have been laid up for the last little bit.
I have not went through your last recommendations and excellent help. I hope to be back on this project next week
Tom

1 week later
#15 6 years ago

Hey Rolf I was able to spend some time digesting where we are at in this troubleshooting process. Man it seemed like I had to review everything to et it straight in my head again.
So here is where I am at.
I believe we have issue BBB ...situation BBB: SCM-5A does not open
My problem is when I start a new game the Control Motor never stops it just continues to go and the "Ball Release Coil" fires steady as well as the Outhole Relay it fires steady as well!
I wish there was a way to post videos so you could see it. I have trouble explaining what is all going on
Thanks for your help as always
Tom

#16 6 years ago

Hi Tom
The answer to this question is very important: Ball Release coil fires pulsing "pulling -> not pulling -> pulling -> not pulling ... " endlessly (State GGG, changing) ?
Or does the Ball-Release coil gets active (pulling) -> pulling -> pulling -> pulling (NEVER let go) (State HHH, once pulling - constantly pulling).
The same answer / question "Outhole-Relay": (State JJJ) "pulling -> not pulling -> pulling ..." endlessly, changing. (State KKK) once pulling - constantly pulling.

I am (swiss- ) german speaking - what means "fires steady" ? Is it a "machine gun" (State GGG and State JJJ) ? - or is a fire going on for three days burning (constantly burning) down the whole town (State HHH and State KKK). Please explain "fires steady". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: In the schema I am looking (1,2,3,4 ...) 19, 20 (21 ...) the "Coil on Outhole-Relay" and the switches Score-motor-Index-Wheel-Switch-A, Score-Motor-fifth-Wheel-Switch-A, and the "Self-Hold-Switch on Outhole-Relay" and the "Outhole Switch that is closed when the ball lays in the Outhole".

P.P.S: "Firing intermittently" <-> "pulling steady" ?

#17 6 years ago

Hey Rolf
Yes
Ball Release coil fires pulsing "pulling -> not pulling -> pulling -> not pulling ... " endlessly

"Outhole-Relay": (State JJJ) "pulling -> not pulling -> pulling ..." endlessly,

I am Canadian so I have my own issues hahaha
Tom

#18 6 years ago

Hi Tom
Right now in Switzerland we have 07:20 in the morning - Normal- / Winter-Time again.

Schema-F-20, text "OUTHOLE RE", the Normally-Open "Self Hold Switch on Outhole Relay" When the relay is not pulling: Switch must be securely open. Please have a look at the "contact Points on the blades" - also look at the end of the blades (where wires are soldered-on): Is there a "Solder Splash" making "faulty connection" ? - a piece of wire ... ? - a "blade and the solder point" bent ... ?

This Switch is easy to find: From one side of "Coil on Outhole-Relay" runs a short wire to a "Switch mounted on Outhole-Relay" - usually the Switch on the bottom of the "Switch-Stack".

If You have adjusted this Switch and the pin has "exactly the same faulty behaviour as before": Look and adjust the "Outhole Switch" - when the ball lays in the Outhole (between the Flipper-Fingers) a Switch on the "Underneath-side of the Playfield" is closed. This Normally-Open Switch is the "Outhole Switch".
Greetings Rolf

#19 6 years ago

Hi Tom
if the Score-Motor does not stop (turning) - Schema-D-4, have a look at the Normally-Open "Switch on Outhole-Relay" - it has a wire-Yellow soldered-on onto one side of the switch - and a wire-Orange-Green soldered-on onto the other side of the switch (maybe there are blank "kind of short Jumper-wires" - there are other switches involved in that area - maybe the "coloured-wire" is soldered-on onto a "Switch on another relay nearby" - and the final connection is done with a "piece of bare wire" (?)).

As You are in the region "Schema-D-4": Want to check the "other switches shown at D-4" ? ALL these switches have wire-Yellow and wire-Orange-Green (or blank Jumper) soldered-on. Greetings Rolf

#20 6 years ago

So there are only 4 SW that can start the score motor, and one SW that keeps it running for its cycle.
Check that all SWs are opening, during the score motor cycle. In every case the wire colours are Yellow and Orange/Green.
Reset Re, Outhole Re 25c Re and the 10c RE. and the hold SW on the score motor its self. With the power off they should all be open.

Guten Morgen Rolf!!

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2 years later
#21 4 years ago

Hi,I would like to pick up here where tffer left off.my problem started yesterday when playfield power went off.found one problem ( thanks rolf).see pic.score motor 5th stack,( short stack,double blue wires and orange wire)bottom wire that connects to bottom lug on 6th stack broke off clean.typical williams age problem ( thanks EM pinrepair).now have power to playfield but kick out coil is exactly as tffer describes.weak.before problem I replaced switch and coil and everything worked fine( strong kickout).now weak.any help.again thanks Rolf for this thread.i hope to finish it with the correct diagnosis ( rolfs diaganosis)and repair.

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#22 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballbrian:

kick out coil is exactly as tffer describes.weak.before problem I replaced switch and coil and everything worked fine( strong kickout).now weak.any help.again thanks Rolf for this thread.i hope to finish it with the correct diagnosis ( rolfs diaganosis)and repair.

Hi Brian, Does the Ball Release coil fire strong when you jumper from the Blue&White wire on it to the Yellow wire on the transformer? If so, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

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#23 4 years ago

Hi,howardr.thank you for responding,and yes sir coil fired strong( NEW COIL).I will diagnose circuit and report back tommorrow.

#24 4 years ago

Hi,Howard R.good news.when I ran the blue and white wire to 5th score motor switch stack ,I found problem.the switch was dirty.cleaned switch ,all is well.i got to admit though I was kind of intimidated just looking at your schem print at first.on other forums also you printed or drew. ( your way of teaching is clever).it made me do the thinking myself.im learning better how to read schems now and diagnose by the schematics.and to repair only what that problem is .I can't thank you enough.it also gives me better understanding of using a jumper wire from transformer ( which lug).again thank you guys for your expert diagnosis and proper repair procedures.Now does anyone know if whitish spots on contacts is a gap issue or is it contact age .(50 year old machines).i could swear I cleaned those a couple times already. guess that's another thread.

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#25 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballbrian:

... I was kind of intimidated just looking at your schem print at first.on other forums also you printed or drew. ( your way of teaching is clever).it made me do the thinking myself.im learning better how to read schems now and diagnose by the schematics.and to repair only what that problem is ...

That's the best compliment I could get, thanks, pinballbrian !!!

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