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(Topic ID: 152333)

Williams Firepower drop target issue


By 3rdaxis

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 15 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

A strange problem i've noticed about the drop targets that when multiball starts if a ball hits one to soon after the start of multiball, the drop target goes down but doesn't registor the switch. This is a problem because the game can't progress untill all the balls drain and the drop target bank resets. The Mpu, driver board and power supply are all new, repaired and up-graded. The rom is a combo rom checksum: 3F76 with no jumper mod on IC9 and IC10. Also using Anypin NVram. The diodes on the D-target swtches all test good and D-target switches test good in diag. It only does it right after multi-ball starts and happens pretty consistently... I can't get it to do it any other time.

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#2 4 years ago

did you add those drop targets yourself or is that a prototype or something?

#3 4 years ago

No i added them myself just recently. The prototype used the "horseshoe" style drops but these "leafswitch" ones are supposed to work and be more dependable.

#4 4 years ago

Hmm, I'm kind of in the process of doing the drop-target retrofit myself. Kind-of because I am making very slow progress.

I will also be using the leaf switch style drops, but my understanding is that, to work properly, the 'all down' switch connections must also be wired. (See http://pinball.flippers.info/firepowerdroptargets/.) I would guess that you have not connected them because there is no easy way to do so with non-horseshoe drops. I suspect that the behavior you are seeing is caused by the MPU missing one or more drop target hits (which are meant to be momentary). At a guess, I would say that this is caused by row/column collisions with other switches.

I would be interested in knowing exactly what behavior you are seeing if you have the time and patience to test it out.

One of the reasons for my slow progress is that I am working on some circuitry to simulate the momentary and 'all down' behavior of the horseshoe drops. I wish I could say that I have an expected end-date for my project but I don't. I suspect that the fastest solution to your problem will be to downgrade to horseshoe drop targets.

#5 4 years ago

Yes i saw that artical but i was going by another one...http://www.ipdb.org/files/856/Williams_1980_Firepower_Prototype_Drop_Targets_Info.txt
Specificaly where this artical says you can wire it in a way with any williams drop target bank so that the software would have extra information to know that all the drops are down but its not entirely clear.

Step 7: Wire the switches.
The drop target switches are wired in the same place in the
matrix as the standups. That information is as follows, from
left to right:

"1" drop target - switch 17 (Green-Orange/White-Brown)
"2" drop target - switch 18 (Green-Orange/White-Red)
"3" drop target - switch 19 (Green-Orange/White-Orange)
"4" drop target - switch 22 (Green-Orange/White-Green)
"5" drop target - switch 22 (Green-Orange/White-Blue)
"6" drop target - switch 23 (Green-Orange/White-Violet)

The early style drop targets (horseshoe/wiper) had two sets
of contacts -- momentary and continuous. The momentary are
activated while the drop target is on its way down, and the
continuous are activated while the the target is resting in
the "down" position.

The easy way to connect the drop targets is to simply use
the continuous contacts on each target and connect it as listed
above. This is the way later style (Black Knight and later)
drop targets would be wired.

The original Firepower, however, used the momentary contacts
connected as above. The continuous contacts were connected
in series within each bank, and connected into another place
in the matrix. This gave the software an extra piece of
information that all the drops in a bank were down. You
can connect your drop switches this way, but its extra work
that is not necessary. Here are the switch positions:

"1-3" drop target series - switch 20 (Green-Orange/White-Yellow)
"4-6" drop target series - switch 24 (Green-Orange/White-Grey)

The "10-point" switches are wired as follows:

"1-3" drop target standup - switch 55 (Green-Violet/White-Violet)
"4-6" drop target standup - switch 52 (Green-Violet/White-Yellow)

When wiring switches, note that the White wire is connected to
the anode of the diode (side WITHOUT the stripe), and the Green
wire is connected to the switch terminal NOT connected to the
diode. Refer to another switch on your playfield as a guide.

#6 4 years ago

I'm just not understanding what this author is explaining in wiring the switched in series? Do i keep them wired as he explains in the begining of this artical in parrallel as well as wiring it in series or only wiring it in series? Or wiring it both ways at the same time? And would this not short out the matrix?

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from 3rdaxis:

I'm just not understanding what this author is explaining in wiring the switched in series?

You had momentary switches on the stand up targets. You replaced with drops with leafs that will show constant closed switch when down. The Cpu is going to think its a stuck switch. The whole purpose of the horseshoe switch was it was two switches in one. One was momentary to let the cpu know it was hit and the other was constant to be wired in series with the other drops to let the cpu know that all drops were down and to reset. This can be done with leafs but you will need a second set for each drop.

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from 3rdaxis:

The easy way to connect the drop targets is to simply use
the continuous contacts on each target and connect it as listed
above. This is the way later style (Black Knight and later)
drop targets would be wired.

I would think that this set up would need to be reprogrammed in the ROM chips.

#9 4 years ago

Ok, that makes sense. guess i need to find a horseshoe style set of banks...ugg. Not sure why this autor said this would work.

#10 4 years ago

Now you don't have to replace the one you have, but you will need to add a set of contacts to your leafs that you already have.

#11 4 years ago

The only issue I have found so far with the horseshoe ones is that they need to be cleaned regularly to work properly. Otherwise I am super happy that I went to drop targets. Just feels better when you make the shot.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Now you don't have to replace the one you have, but you will need to add a set of contacts to your leafs that you already have.

I think what i may do considering i have a 3d printer is to make a set of stand-offs to hold a newer style micro switch to be the momentary trigger.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from 3rdaxis:

I think what i may do considering i have a 3d printer is to make a set of stand-offs to hold a newer style micro switch to be the momentary trigger.

Interesting idea, this is why they stoped using the horseshoes in the first place as they needed to much service.

#14 4 years ago

Grumpy: Do you know whether anyone has tested your suggestion of simply adding a second set of switches to leaf style drops (presumably to be wired in series for the 'all down' connection)?

I ask because I orginally had the thought of rebuilding the switch stacks to add a second NO and an additional NC set of contacts. My idea was to use the extra switches to simulate a momentary close by careful adjustment and arrangement of the leaves, but I ultimately decided the idea was likely to be too fiddly to be reliable.

If your suggestion works - using continuous contacts for the drop hits as well as the 'all down' - it would seem to be a superior approach to the drop retrofit in that it would have full functionaility but avoid the maintenance hassle of horseshoe drops.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from mbd:

Do you know whether anyone has tested your suggestion of simply adding a second set of switches to leaf style drops (presumably to be wired in series for the 'all down' connection)?

One set in series and one set in parallel.

Quoted from mbd:

My idea was to use the extra switches to simulate a momentary close by careful adjustment and arrangement of the leaves

Exactly what I was thinking.

Quoted from mbd:but I ultimately decided the idea was likely to be too fiddly to be reliable.

In HUO it might be OK.

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