(Topic ID: 228542)

Williams Fire won't boot up

By boosman

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

Hello,

I have a Williams Fire where I am having problems with, at boot up I get the error message U54 PIA faliure. This happened after I changed the batteries although I don't think that the problem originated from this. I have found the manual online if it is of any help: https://www.ipdb.org/files/859/Williams_1987_Fire_Instruction_Manual.pdf

On the motherboard there are 3 led's, the 5v vdc is on all the time, the diagnostics led flashes when there is nothing on the screen and the blanking light flashes when the error also flashes on the screen, the diagnostics led and the blanking led alternate after flashing 7 times. The main board doesn't seem cracked.

I am not experienced at repairing pinballs so detailed help would be nice.

Thanks, all help is welcome.

#2 5 years ago

Can you post a picture of your MPU board at the U54 location. I believe that is 1 of the 2 chips right below the battery. Possible old corrosion or if someone socketed that chip maybe u bumped it and it needs reseated

#3 5 years ago

Actually just looked it up theat chip is to right of batteries but I read that if the diode in you battery holder came loose that it may be causing your error. Are you using a remote battery holder? Or are your batteries still on your board? Google search pinwiki systems 9-11 MPU boot issues

#4 5 years ago

Thanks for your replies.

I don't think the board is cracked or corroded. I have removed the batteries to see if it would make a difference, but it didn't.

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#5 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

Thanks for your replies.
I don't think the board is cracked or corroded. I have removed the batteries to see if it would make a difference, but it didn't.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Take that ribbon cable off so there's a clear view of the battery holder area and shoot another picture or two (make sure you select "original size" from the dropdown menu when dragging the pictures onto the post)

#6 5 years ago

You can see the exact behaviour when I power it on at this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/160GrcMgSNH_o7bxlaHz14hCQWDWW2gSN/view

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#7 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

You can see the exact behaviour when I power it on at this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/160GrcMgSNH_o7bxlaHz14hCQWDWW2gSN/view[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Did you try re-seating the game roms (and sound ROMS too?) to clear possible oxidation on their pins?

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Take that ribbon cable off so there's a clear view of the battery holder area and shoot another picture or two (make sure you select "original size" from the dropdown menu when dragging the pictures onto the post)
Also on System 7, 7 flashes indicates Rom0 is bad. Maybe try pressing on them to see if the pins have oxidation on them?
0 - Test Passed
1 - IC13 RAM Faulty
2 - IC16 RAM Faulty
3 - IC17 ROM 2 Faulty
4 - IC17 ROM 2 Faulty
5 - IC20 ROM I Faulty
6 - IC14 Game ROM 1 Faulty
7 - IC26 Game ROM 0 Faulty
8 - IC19 CMOS RAM or memory protect circuit faulty
9 - Coin-door closed, memory protect circuit faulty, or IC19 CMOS RAM Faulty.

Not sure what System 7 error codes have to do with a System 11 MPU.

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Not sure what System 7 error codes have to do with a System 11 MPU.

Hmmm, middle of the day post, so I can't really come up with why I would have crossed that wire...

I still say reseat the ROMS though.

Also, a picture of the BACK of the board in the area where the battery holder is on the other side would be helpful.

#10 5 years ago

I have made a few middle of the day posts in other threads and I can say I was not thinking too clearly.

#11 5 years ago

The procedure for checking the U54 PIA from the repair guide, using only a multimeter:

Check the 6821 PIA Chips.
Now check the six 40 pin 6821 PIA chips at U10, U38, U41, U42, U51, U54. The easiest way to do this is to remove the PIA chips (with the game off), one at a time, and put them in a working CPU board (in the same chip position). This way you can see if putting in the questionable PIA chip causes the otherwise working board to fail.

If you don't have a working CPU board to use as a text fixture, you can also test these chips with your DMM. With the game off, set your DMM to the "diode" setting, and put the red lead on ground (pin 1). Then put the black lead on pins 2-9 (PA0-PA7) and pins 10-17 (PB0-PB7), one by one. You should get a reading between .4 and .6 volts. If you get a short (zero) reading, replace that PIA. Note it's best to perform this test with the chip removed from the CPU board.

#12 5 years ago

So far what I have been able to take the board out. Tomorrow I will get a new mulitimeter as mine didn't work to test the U54 chip. I will also reseat the roms. I have also seen at the back of the board there 2 chips with pins where the solder is touching, is this a problem or is it normal, at U51 and U44.

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#13 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

So far what I have been able to take the board out. Tomorrow I will get a new mulitimeter as mine didn't work to test the U54 chip. I will also reseat the roms. I have also seen at the back of the board there 2 chips with pins where the solder is touching, is this a problem or is it normal, at U51 and U44.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

You had me for a minute by changing the orientation of the closeup of the PIA (it's upside down). Pins are fine. The PIA one is pretty ugly with flux and could benefit from a cleanup with rubbing alcohol and a tooth brush.

#14 5 years ago

did you acquire this game with this problem? or was it working and then this issue started? did you touch up the solder joints or was it like that? the flux is ugly, but cleaning it up wont really have any effect on the function of the chip.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

did you acquire this game with this problem? or was it working and then this issue started? did you touch up the solder joints or was it like that? the flux is ugly, but cleaning it up wont really have any effect on the function of the chip.

Yeah, my OCD kicking in. Ugly flux has to go.

#16 5 years ago

I cleaned the chip off. Didn't have the time to test the U54 chip so I'm going to do that tomorrow. It was working until I tried to change the batteries.

#17 5 years ago

Finally had time to measure the chip, here are the values:

Pin 2: 640
Pin 3:640
Pin 4: 640
Pin 5: 639
Pin 6: 639
Pin 7: 638
Pin 8: 657
Pin 9: 654

Pin 10: 623
Pin 11: 621
Pin 12: 620
Pin 13: 618
Pin 14: 618
Pin 15:617
Pin 16: 618
Pin 17:617

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

Finally had time to measure the chip, here are the values:
Pin 2: 640
Pin 3:640
Pin 4: 640
Pin 5: 639
Pin 6: 639
Pin 7: 638
Pin 8: 657
Pin 9: 654
Pin 10: 623
Pin 11: 621
Pin 12: 620
Pin 13: 618
Pin 14: 618
Pin 15:617
Pin 16: 618
Pin 17:617

Did you reseat the game roms?

#19 5 years ago

Yes, I did

#20 5 years ago

I'd look at the +5v being slightly under power at boot (then stablizing when it's too late) then. According to the repair guide, this can result in the 7 flashes you are seeing (incorrectly indicating a PIA bad). I'd try the test clip test first and work down from there:

"To "go around" the POR section of the board, you can do a simple test. After attempting to boot the CPU board, ground the /RESET line on the CPU chip (pin 40 of U15) momentarily with a test clip. If the board boots up consistently without a problem (correct flashes or "0" in the LED), then the POR section is definately at fault.

The POR section's job is to look at the +5 and +12 volts, and make sure they have stablized, as determined by zener diodes ZR1 (1N5996A, 6.8 volts .5 watt) and ZR2 (1N5990, 3.9 volts .5 watt) before starting the CPU. This is done by transistors Q34, Q36 and Q38, but before these three transistors can work, capacitor C30 and resistors R55 and R56 provide a delay to allow the voltage to stabilize. Only then the /RESET line can be released.

Any of these POR components could be bad, and not causing the CPU board to boot properely. If the board boots inconsistently, first look at capacitor C30 (a 22 mfd 10 volt electrolytic). If you don't have any way to test the capacitor, just clip another 22 mfd electrolytic cap across the leads of the existing C30 cap (positive to positive, negative to negative, a parallel connection). If the board now boots up consistently, you have found your problem! If not, check resistors R55 (4.7k 1/4 watt) and R56 (10 ohm 1/4 watt), and transistors Q34, Q36, Q38 (2N4401)."

#21 5 years ago

Definitely, replacing C30 would be my next step.

Edit...on the CPU board

#22 5 years ago

What is the 5v actually reading at TP2 to TP4? On the main board, not the Power supply.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

What is the 5v actually reading at TP2 to TP4? On the main board, not the Power supply.

I don't think it matters once the game has booted because the problem occurs AS it's booting. The 5v is slow to come up to a stable level and it messes with the diagnostics.

#24 5 years ago

I disagree, These things will run just fine a tad under 5V, At the main board. But what do I know, Im a Newb.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:I'd look at the +5v being slightly under power at boot (then stablizing when it's too late) then. According to the repair guide, this can result in the 7 flashes you are seeing (incorrectly indicating a PIA bad). I'd try the test clip test first and work down from there:
"To "go around" the POR section of the board, you can do a simple test. After attempting to boot the CPU board, ground the /RESET line on the CPU chip (pin 40 of U15) momentarily with a test clip. If the board boots up consistently without a problem (correct flashes or "0" in the LED), then the POR section is definately at fault.
The POR section's job is to look at the +5 and +12 volts, and make sure they have stablized, as determined by zener diodes ZR1 (1N5996A, 6.8 volts .5 watt) and ZR2 (1N5990, 3.9 volts .5 watt) before starting the CPU. This is done by transistors Q34, Q36 and Q38, but before these three transistors can work, capacitor C30 and resistors R55 and R56 provide a delay to allow the voltage to stabilize. Only then the /RESET line can be released.
Any of these POR components could be bad, and not causing the CPU board to boot properely. If the board boots inconsistently, first look at capacitor C30 (a 22 mfd 10 volt electrolytic). If you don't have any way to test the capacitor, just clip another 22 mfd electrolytic cap across the leads of the existing C30 cap (positive to positive, negative to negative, a parallel connection). If the board now boots up consistently, you have found your problem! If not, check resistors R55 (4.7k 1/4 watt) and R56 (10 ohm 1/4 watt), and transistors Q34, Q36, Q38 (2N4401)."

So I put the board back, and tested it as you said, connecting pin 40 on the CPU (U15) to the GND pin on the board, and after 1 or 2 seconds it made a noise, then I let go it started displaying U54 PIA faliure again. Am I doing something wrong? I include a photo of the ground pin I connected it to.

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#26 5 years ago

PIA is bad. Remove the chip and install a new socket and new 6821.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

So I put the board back, and tested it as you said, connecting pin 40 on the CPU (U15) to the GND pin on the board, and after 1 or 2 seconds it made a noise, then I let go it started displaying U54 PIA faliure again. Am I doing something wrong? I include a photo of the ground pin I connected it to.[quoted image]

Sounds like you did it right. The PIA might just be bad. I'd just spend the $4 and get it over with. When you unsolder the chip, though, cut off all the legs and unsolder one by one to minimize the chance of pulling pads off.

I also recommend using these kind of sockets:

pins (resized).jpgpins (resized).jpg
#28 5 years ago

Boosman, if you aren't comfortable desoldering and installing a 40 pin chip, I have done 50-60 of these on a system 11 boards. Pm me if you want the help.

#29 5 years ago

Where can I buy such a chip? Any ideas. I live in Spain.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

Where can I buy such a chip? Any ideas. I live in Spain.

I see a bunch on Ebay spain, but you have to be careful of counterfeits (and prices are a LOT more expensive than here in the US). Any decent electronics supply store should have it.

2 weeks later
#31 5 years ago

So the chip finally arrived, I took the board out again, and I will replace the chip tomorrow.

#32 5 years ago

So I installed the chip with no success so far, when I turend it on it did nothing, the 5 volt led was lit. Any suggestions?

#33 5 years ago

I had a friend who put it in, I just took it out an saw that 4 pins are bent and one broken, so I will buy another one online. Keep you posted. Thanks for now.

#34 5 years ago

I would test out all the traces from the IC pins of U54 (not the back of the board) to where they all go to. It is possible since it had an IC socket installed previously, could be a damaged trace under it.

#35 5 years ago

Also get a new C30 22uf 16v or 25v axial electrolytic capacitor. I seen old ones sometimes cause false PIA failures. This is why I had suggested the C30 previously.

#36 5 years ago

I have checked all the pins that go to U54 and they all work exept 33, should I solder a wire to connect it? I have also ordered the capacitor.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from boosman:

I have checked all the pins that go to U54 and they all work exept 33, should I solder a wire to connect it?

Yes, add a wire. Retest with the original PIA that was in the board to see what happens.

#38 5 years ago

Ok, I will add a wire, I can't put the old one in beacause I had to cut the pins off to install the socket.

#39 5 years ago

Bummer. I thought the socket was installed by someone else.

#40 5 years ago

Where did you purchase the PIA from?

1 week later
#41 5 years ago

I just installed the new pia and the C30 capacitor, and it still doesn't work. Any ideas?

#42 5 years ago

sounds like the Blanking Circuit and/or the Clock circuit

#43 5 years ago

Where did you purchase the PIA from? There have been quite a few fakes being sold at many places.

#44 5 years ago

I would retest all the traces to and from the U54. Also check adjacent pins of the IC socket so that there is no short between pins? Do you have a logic probe?

#45 5 years ago

I bought it from a Dutch online store: flipperwinkel.nl. I don't have a logic probe. When I turned it on only the 5v LED tured on.

#46 5 years ago

So the middle (diagnostic) nor the blanking LED or LED at all?

#47 5 years ago

Only the 5v LED, the diagnostics and the blanking LED's didn't light up.

#48 5 years ago

So your problem now is worse than last reported, which the diagnostic LED was blinking to give you the U54 error code. So either the jumper you added is in the wrong place or the PIA is in backwards.

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