Fire!
Williams, 1987Hi everyone. New to the pinball world and I'm having issues with my Fire. I was getting a status error code on boot up so I changed my 3 AAs (nvram on the way) and it worked fine all evening and this morning I got all lights on on the playfield and the upper cab but nothing on the scoring displays and the game doesn't boot up. I tried new AAs but they might have been old. Grabbing new ones tomorrow but I have a feeling it might not be the batteries? All fuses look OK. Suggestions?
#Fire
Any alkaline on the battery holder metal ? Sometimes they (terminals) will separate and one battery will not connect.
Quoted from DreB:this morning I got all lights on on the playfield and the upper cab but nothing on the scoring displays and the game doesn't boot up. I tried new AAs but they might have been old. Grabbing new ones tomorrow but I have a feeling it might not be the batteries? All fuses look OK. Suggestions?
Well, you need provide details on it not booting up.
Post a picture of the board please.
Check for any connectors you may have knocked loose when changing the batteries.
Do you have a multimeter? You will probably want to start by checking voltages at the power supply. I would also not rely on just a visual inspection of the fuses, you should pull them and test with a meter also.
I agree, sounds like a power supply issue. Likely the 5volt capacitors failed. Best to measure the voltages to be sure though. Good time to replace all the capacitors on the board so it lasts for 25 more years.
Still like to see a picture of the MPU.
How are those solder joints on the header pins? Wouldn’t hurt to check! They could be ice cold particularly on any connector that is involved with the 5volt
Quoted from chad:Good to see no damage from battery leakage.
Yeah. Nvram on the way
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I agree, sounds like a power supply issue. Likely the 5volt capacitors failed. Best to measure the voltages to be sure though. Good time to replace all the capacitors on the board so it lasts for 25 more years.
Still like to see a picture of the MPU.
Here you go.
Agree on replacement of the capacitors on the power supply. Especially the big ole blue filter cap. Check with Great Plains Electronics for availability.
Quoted from Brtlkat:With your DMM what are all your voltage test points reading? FWIW the machine will boot without batteries in it.
Ah, just won't save scores etc.. OK tks. Like I said. Newb over here. Lol.
Quoted from Brtlkat:With your DMM what are all your voltage test points reading? FWIW the machine will boot without batteries in it.
I'll check this evening. What should I be getting? I'm sure I can find a system 11 troubleshoot video somewhere.
So you are basically saying it works the same way if you put batteries in it or not? To me it looks like someone did a shitty job of soldering in a new battery box. My generic answer to this is remove MPU, send to qualified board repairman, have them install the NVRAM, A new C30 capacitor, they will test board if indeed a qualified board repairman, make necessary repairs, then you can re install MPU and enjoy your Fire. Usually people don't like this answer, but it always seems to work well for me. Good luck!
Quoted from DreB:I'll check this evening. What should I be getting? I'm sure I can find a system 11 troubleshoot video somewhere.
There are test points on the power supply, the 5v is your likely suspect and I would start there. If you are new to working on games be very careful, there is high voltage in the backbox and if you are poking around with a meter you can unintentionally short things.
There are lots of videos out there as you mentioned, this is also a great guide I have referenced alot:
Quoted from dozer1:So you are basically saying it works the same way if you put batteries in it or not? To me it looks like someone did a shitty job of soldering in a new battery box. My generic answer to this is remove MPU, send to qualified board repairman, have them install the NVRAM, A new C30 capacitor, they will test board if indeed a qualified board repairman, make necessary repairs, then you can re install MPU and enjoy your Fire. Usually people don't like this answer, but it always seems to work well for me. Good luck!
I'm decent at soldering and nvram is in the mail. Thanks for the tip 
Quoted from DreB:I'll check this evening. What should I be getting? I'm sure I can find a system 11 troubleshoot video somewhere.
*** Williams System 11 Power measurements and test points ***
Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
U26/U27 ROM Pin 1 = +4.91 VDC
Audio power
MPU IJ17 Pin 9 = -14.04 VDC (Unregulated)
MPU IJ17 Pin 8 = +12.02 VDC (Unregulated)
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 8 -13.9 VDC @250 mV AC ripple
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 4 +11.8 VDC @50 mV AC ripple
Controlled lamp power
PS 3J4 pins 5,6,7,8 (Sys11A) or backbox bridge 6BR1 (Sys11B)= +15VDC to +18VDC nominal.
General illumination power
PSU 3J8 (Sys11A) or Interconnect board output 2P7 (Sys11B) = 4.5 VAC to 6.3 VAC nominal
Display power
3J5 pin 3 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 3 (Sys11B) = +90 to +110VDC nominal
3J5 pin 4 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 1 (Sys11B) = -90 to -110VDC nominal
Flipper power
Game specific@flipper supply board outputs= +65 to +75 VDC nominal
Solenoid power
PS 3J3 pins 6,7,8 (Sys11A) +32 to +35 VDC
Interconnect board F1/F3 (Sys11B) +41 VDC
Interconnect board F4 (Sys11B) +75VDC
Quoted from wayout440:*** Williams System 11 Power measurements and test points ***
Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
U26/U27 ROM Pin 1 = +4.91 VDC
Audio power
MPU IJ17 Pin 9 = -14.04 VDC (Unregulated)
MPU IJ17 Pin 8 = +12.02 VDC (Unregulated)
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 8 -13.9 VDC @250 mV AC ripple
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 4 +11.8 VDC @50 mV AC ripple
Controlled lamp power
PS 3J4 pins 5,6,7,8 (Sys11A) or backbox bridge 6BR1 (Sys11B)= +15VDC to +18VDC nominal.
General illumination power
PSU 3J8 (Sys11A) or Interconnect board output 2P7 (Sys11B) = 4.5 VAC to 6.3 VAC nominal
Display power
3J5 pin 3 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 3 (Sys11B) = +90 to +110VDC nominal
3J5 pin 4 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 1 (Sys11B) = -90 to -110VDC nominal
Flipper power
Game specific@flipper supply board outputs= +65 to +75 VDC nominal
Solenoid power
PS 3J3 pins 6,7,8 (Sys11A) +32 to +35 VDC
Interconnect board F1/F3 (Sys11B) +41 VDC
Interconnect board F4 (Sys11B) +75VDC
Thank you
Quoted from DreB:So. Turns out this connector isn't making a good connection. Pins on the way. Phiew. Happy it wasn't something major.
[quoted image]
Glad you found it!
Quoted from PinballManiac40:You'll still need new capacitors at some point.
Does it need to be that specific one? Looking for a replacement.
Quoted from DreB:Does it need to be that specific one? Looking for a replacement.
I said "capacitors". So way more than just one. These are the values and part locations. Better make sure you install them correctly or they will explode. https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=W711A-PEC-KIT
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I said "capacitors". So way more than just one. These are the values and part locations. Better make sure you install them correctly or they will explode. https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=W711A-PEC-KIT
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I said "capacitors". So way more than just one. These are the values and part locations. Better make sure you install them correctly or they will explode. https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=W711A-PEC-KIT
Thank you Sir. Even though I'm new to pinballs I've been a telecom field tech for over 12yrs. I am aware that they do need to go in the right way. Lol
That is good. Though the + sign markings on the board can be confusing because some locations can be fitted with an axial or a radial capacitor.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:That is good. Though the + sign markings on the board can be confusing because some locations can be fitted with an axial or a radial capacitor.
Agreed. Cheers
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Think? You need to measure the 5v and 12v again on the power supply.
Sorry man, don't want to sound like a broken record, just not sure how to do that.
Quoted from DreB:Sorry man, don't want to sound like a broken record, just not sure how to do that.
wayout440 showed on post #20. Slide the black meter lead under the ground braid wire in the backbox so you only have to hold the red lead. Set the meter for Vdc, V==, depending on label your meter has and post your results.
Go on ebay.
Search "system 11A power supply cap kit"
Order the one sold by Big Daddy.
I rebuild all my system 11s with his kits. Make sure you get the one for the power supply. Takes about 30 mins to rebuild.
Quoted from Blackbeard:Go on ebay.
Search "system 11A power supply cap kit"
Order the one sold by Big Daddy.
I rebuild all my system 11s with his kits. Make sure you get the one for the power supply. Takes about 30 mins to rebuild.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:wayout440 showed on post #20. Slide the black meter lead under the ground braid wire in the backbox so you only have to hold the red lead. Set the meter for Vdc, V==, depending on label your meter has and post your results.
You're right. Sorry. Just getting frustrated and I'm moving backwards. Lol
Quoted from wayout440:Although you might be correct, there is no need to just throw wild darts at a random target. It's a good idea to troubleshoot first to find out exactly what is wrong. This will also help to identify if you fixed the problem (or created another) when replacing all the caps
Definitely.
I was more saying to
Just
Do it bc you should. More as a general comment.
Quoted from wayout440:*** Williams System 11 Power measurements and test points ***
Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
U26/U27 ROM Pin 1 = +4.91 VDC
Audio power
MPU IJ17 Pin 9 = -14.04 VDC (Unregulated)
MPU IJ17 Pin 8 = +12.02 VDC (Unregulated)
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 8 -13.9 VDC @250 mV AC ripple
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 4 +11.8 VDC @50 mV AC ripple
Controlled lamp power
PS 3J4 pins 5,6,7,8 (Sys11A) or backbox bridge 6BR1 (Sys11B)= +15VDC to +18VDC nominal.
General illumination power
PSU 3J8 (Sys11A) or Interconnect board output 2P7 (Sys11B) = 4.5 VAC to 6.3 VAC nominal
Display power
3J5 pin 3 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 3 (Sys11B) = +90 to +110VDC nominal
3J5 pin 4 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 1 (Sys11B) = -90 to -110VDC nominal
Flipper power
Game specific@flipper supply board outputs= +65 to +75 VDC nominal
Solenoid power
PS 3J3 pins 6,7,8 (Sys11A) +32 to +35 VDC
Interconnect board F1/F3 (Sys11B) +41 VDC
Interconnect board F4 (Sys11B) +75VDC
Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
Pin 6 has nothing.
Quoted from DreB:Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
Pin 6 has nothing.
These three pins are redundant, so having one not connected is not likely to cause no boot. Circle back to this later. Now check at the logic power test point for +5VDC
Screenshot_20201125-044354 (resized).pngAlright. So I'm still trying to figure this out. I've disconnected every but IJ18 and no power to board. This might be simple to some but being new to all of this I think I'm stuck. (Extremely frustrated) Tested my power supply and everything seams OK. I'm just not sure what steps to take next. About to set fire to my Fire. Lol
So...the frustration continues. Looks like 2 of my 3 under playfield relay boards aren't getting the 28v. IJ18 isn't pushing out any power and my tip transistors test OK. Not sure where to go next. I've read the pinwiki about 5 times and my service manual doesn't really cover this. Any advice?
Quoted from DreB:So...the frustration continues. Looks like 2 of my 3 under playfield relay boards aren't getting the 28v. IJ18 isn't pushing out any power and my tip transistors test OK. Not sure where to go next. I've read the pinwiki about 5 times and my service manual doesn't really cover this. Any advice?
First of all, IJ18 does not "push out power", it is basically a set of electronic switches. The under playfield relays get 26 VAC (not 28) Be sure you understand how to set your meter to AC voltage. Read the AC voltage across the relay blue/white wire to the white/blue at the 5A S-B fuse (not to ground). If you still do not have voltage there, this supply comes directly from the transformer windings, but at the transformer they are white/red wires.
Quoted from DreB:So...the frustration continues. Looks like 2 of my 3 under playfield relay boards aren't getting the 28v. IJ18 isn't pushing out any power and my tip transistors test OK. Not sure where to go next. I've read the pinwiki about 5 times and my service manual doesn't really cover this. Any advice?
You need to step back and do testing in a logical manner.
First you need a good power supply putting out the correct voltages.
Second, this power needs to go the CPU board.
Third, the CPU boards needs to boot up.
Until this all happens correctly looking at items under the playfield is a waste of time and energy.
Start over with the power supply and find J-6, its at the top of the power supply. Use your voltmeter on DC volts and check each pin with the red lead. Place the black lead under the ground braid. You need to be accurate with your posts and your readings or we can't help you with this small issue.
Quoted from GRUMPY:You need to step back and do testing in a logical manner.
First you need a good power supply putting out the correct voltages.
Second, this power needs to go the CPU board.
Third, the CPU boards needs to boot up.
Until this all happens correctly looking at items under the playfield is a waste of time and energy.
Start over with the power supply and find J-6, its at the top of the power supply. Use your voltmeter on DC volts and check each pin with the red lead. Place the black lead under the ground braid. You need to be accurate with your posts and your readings or we can't help you with this small issue.
Like previously said I am new to this and at some point so we're all of you. I'm sorry if my issue is simply to you but to me it is not. I am overwhelmed, confused and frustrated. I'm doing my best with the limited skills that I possess. My power supply is fine and my mpu board is not lighting up. I lack the proper terminology and for this I am sorry.
Until you see fire coming out of your machine, it's a simple issue and no reason to be frustrated. I haven't seen that you have all the correct voltages coming out of the power supply yet. Maybe I missed that.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Until you see fire coming out of your machine, it's a simple issue and no reason to be frustrated. I haven't seen that you have all the correct voltages coming out of the power supply yet. Maybe I missed that.
I was working fine then one day just stopped. When I turn it on all the lights are on and I hear the speaker hum but the leds on the main board don't come on. I though maybe a special solenoid needed to be activated but I guess I read that wrong. I'll go through the power supply again. I originally wiggled the 12 pin ac wafer and it came on briefly. Now nothing.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Start here and let me know what you find.
[quoted image]
Pin 1= 0
2= -14.6
3= 14.6
4= 0
5 missing
6= 14.5
7 to 15= 0
Put my ground (com) on pin 14
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