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» Williams Dealer's Choice, coin mech ??

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Williams Dealer's Choice, coin mech ??

By Oakley104

6 years ago

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Latest reply 6 years ago by Insane
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Dealer's Choice Williams, 1974

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#1 6 years ago

???

OK, lets start with I'm new to pinball restorations.... A little background, bought this machine a month ago been going through it and fixing the obvious issues, burnt popup coil, gummed up stepper motors. Finally got the machine to where it could be turned on. After a few adjustments it's actually working fairly well. Learning there is an art to adjustments in the EM machines, its all good !!! Found lots of good info online, parts, and help, but .... as my luck goes nothing on my question today. My question is related to the coin mech in this Williams machine, probably most Williams machines of the same vintage are the same.

Everything in the coin mech, as it was when I got it, seems complete, I think.... The coin switches work and add credits. When you drop in a quarter it rolls down a short metal shoot then drops and misses the coin switch. Is there suppose to be something, track, shoot, guides,... between the end of the metal coin shoot and the coin switch that's about three inches below? Can't find any pictures of a Williams coin mech online, just my luck.... Attached pictures of my coin mech ......

Might be this sounds strange, and I think I might know the answer but was hoping someone could help. Have not setup the machine to be level and have what seems to be the norm of a 6.5 degree slope. Is the 6.5 degree slope required to make the coin mech work correctly ,and have the quarters drop in the right place?

Oh, one other question on the machine slope. Don't have a fancy electronic level to use to set it up with. But, if my math is correct (might not be) using a 28 inch level, with a 6.5 degree slope, the end of the level would need to be 3.2 inches higher on one end. Does this sound right, seems like that's a big slope ???

Appreciate any thoughts or comments, Thanks !!!

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#2 6 years ago

CKA

ryan1234

Pinside member

11y 82,550 1,004

Looks to me like you are missing the entire coin mech.
The coin mech is a device that the coin drops through and determines if the coin is the correct coin. (Fake, wrong currency)
These coin mechs pop out easily and could be repaired and switched to a different machine.
They are ordered to the costumers specification- based on type of currency they wished to use.
Search “coin mech arcade” and you will see what you are missing.

#3 6 years ago

CKA

ryan1234

Pinside member

11y 82,550 1,004

Would look something like this.

6601FFA0-FF9F-4659-9F21-995C88950343 (resized).jpeg

#4 6 years ago

LTG

Pinside member

Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,991 24 7

ryan1234 posted a picture of the mech. Oh the right side of the mech in his picture, two posts screw in where the red arrows point in my picture.

And see where the yellow arrow points ? There is a metal piece that screws onto the left side of the mech in ryan1234's picture to lock the mech in place.

Each mech ( except molded plastic ones ) have three theaded holes on each side. For short screws or longer posts.

LTG : )

030fcbc4d722ecd0fe6dd551fa8c552f29aa6509 (resized).jpg

#5 6 years ago

FUN

fredsmythson

Inactive member

Austin, TX

8y 55,650 1,189 33

You're missing the "coin mechs" that should be installed in the "coin assembly." You can get the original metal coin mechs used on Ebay or at other used pinball parts Web sites. Not sure if you can still find this style of coin mechs that are new...

ebay.com link: COIN MECH INC COIN DOOR METAL QUARTER COIN MECHANISM 25 CENT COIN MECH GC NC

Here is an article by Steve Kulpa that was written some years ago about Bally coin mechs, which are almost the same as Williams and Gottlieb coin mech assemblies of that era:

http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/coinmech.htm

There is a lot of info about leveling a pinball machine and its playfield angle on Pinside. Here's a recent thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-angle-for-em-machines

Slope and angle of the machine are not related to the coin mechs working properly.

Slope and angle for an EM machine would be around 3.5 degrees.

I was once told by an operator many years ago that the correct playfield angle for an EM pinball machine was already built into the machine, and the leg levelers were basically for leveling the machine when it was placed on an uneven surface.

But, it looks like the slope and angle on a pinball machine is subjective, and you can make the angle anything you want...

#6 6 years ago

???

Oakley104

Inactive member

6y 21,500 13 1

OH, missing parts..... interesting. Guess I may need to look for some replacement coin mechs. I did find these when I looked online but didn't understand what I saw. Think maybe I get it now, Thanks !!! Guess this makes sense, was wondering how the machine rejected bad or wrong coins. The coin return mech doesn't seem to do much as is. Guess it all makes sense now. What a rookie mistake : (((

Thank YOU to everyone who provided info !!!!

OK, while I asking dumb questions I'll ask a couple more:

Some of the stepper switches don't have labels any more. Can't find and documentation that shows the location of various stepper switches, relays, other components. Does such a document or drawing exist for Williams machines?

OK. one last question, there is a small white light on the left side of the apron that seems to be on all the time, what is it for ??

Thanks again for everyone's help and patience for newbies !!!!

#7 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

Williams game manuals have pictures of the various steppers and relays. What game are you working on? IPDB may have that manual.

#8 6 years ago

???

Oakley104

Inactive member

6y 21,500 13 1

I have the manual and schematic for a Williams Dealer's Choice, nothing shows where the various components are physically located in the machine. If the original ID tags have fallen off, and your a rookie like me how do you find the components listed on the schematic? Are all Williams machines, of the same age, built he same way?

#9 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

OP
Quoted from Oakley104:
I have the manual and schematic for a Williams Dealer's Choice, nothing shows where the various components are physically located in the machine. If the original ID tags have fallen off, and your a rookie like me how do you find the components listed on the schematic? Are all Williams machines, of the same age, built he same way?

Not really. You'll need to get the manual and schematic for your game, or find other pinside members with your mystery game.

#10 6 years ago

FUN

fredsmythson

Inactive member

Austin, TX

8y 55,650 1,189 33

If the relay or bank relay labels are missing, you can always use the schematic to identify a relay by the relay's wire colors. Faded wires can be traced to the wiring harness for improved identification...

#11 6 years ago

CKA

ryan1234

Pinside member

11y 82,550 1,004

OP
Quoted from Oakley104:
OK, while I asking dumb questions I'll ask a couple more:
Some of the stepper switches don't have labels any more. Can't find and documentation that shows the location of various stepper switches, relays, other components. Does such a document or drawing exist for Williams machines?
OK. one last question, there is a small white light on the left side of the apron that seems to be on all the time, what is it for ??
Thanks again for everyone's help and patience for newbies !!!!

If you are unsure what a relay does, you can manually shift them with the machine on and see what happens. Some relays may not work until a game is started. Be very carful not to get shocked. Some relays have 120v on them.

The light on the left on/under the apron usually is lit when credits are on the machine. I am guessing that with the coin mechs missing, someone has adjusted the credit switches so it will have “free play”
and that will keep that light on.

Keep the questions coming!

#12 6 years ago

MDM

Black_Knight

Vertigo

Blue Ridge, GA

9y 115K 3,066 109 33

OP
Quoted from Oakley104:
Guess I may need to look for some replacement coin mechs.

Why? Are you putting it on route or just want to mess with coins in your basement? Sounds like it is set up for free play already, so let it rip.

#13 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

OP
Quoted from Oakley104:
I have the manual and schematic for a Williams Dealer's Choice, nothing shows where the various components are physically located in the machine. If the original ID tags have fallen off, and your a rookie like me how do you find the components listed on the schematic? Are all Williams machines, of the same age, built he same way?

Here's the list of 45 other Dealer's Choice owners. Get one of them to PM you some photos.
https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/dealers-choice-williams/owners

#14 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Oakley104 +
in post-8 You "complain" about "where in the pin is relay-xy (?)". Here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/649/Williams_Dealer_s_Choice_manual.pdf on page-12 (ori-11) the list --- Mech. Panel is bottom board in the cabinet --- Insert is Backbox --- Cabinet is side-wall or back-wall of cabinet --- Front door is Coin-door and Playfield is Playfield (((coils: see below))).
Starting at page-22 (ori-21): All the relays are drawn - You can count the switches on an relay - You can look "what coil number is on this relay" and compare with "in Your pin".
Also steppers can be looked-up in the manual.

Here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/415/Williams_1968_Cabaret_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf on page-15 (ori-13): Nice - an Score-Drum and its switches. Greetings Rolf

#15 6 years ago

???

Oakley104

Inactive member

6y 21,500 13 1

First off, BIG thanks to everyone for all the great information. Information sometimes generate more questions....

I do have the same manual that several others mentioned, and yes my manual does have the same relay drawings. At work I deal with electrical and panel drawings for electrical equipment almost everyday. Most if not all the electrical equipment and panel drawings have a drawing of the panel that shows the physical location of each relay, switch, light,... that references the schematic number or name, i.e. R1, power on relay. Then if your not familiar with the particular electrical panel its very easy to find R1, even though there might be 10 other relays that are exactly the same as R1. Was hoping such a drawing existed for pinball machines, guess not. Don't know you don't ask........

The other reason I was asking about component locations was there are items shown in the schematic that are not steppers or relays shown in the manual. If your a newbie you don't know all the pinball jargon it gets confusing real fast. Like the "anti-cheat" switch, "kick switch" and there's probably a few more that I haven't found yet. Just would be nice if these type of components were shown or located on a drawing or picture for those not in the know......

On the schematic there are contacts shown as M.B., the legend names them as a Make Break. Now I've seen a make before break switch, don't think that's what these are. So, what is a Make Break switch, where are they located and what do they look like?

Free play, someone mentioned the machine could be setup for "free play", have seen other posts that talk about free play too. The concept sounds fine, so how would one setup a machine for free play or check to see it a machine has already been setup for free play? Now that I have all the steppers working my machine does count down, uses one credit for each game played, if I don't toggle the coin switch it runs out of credits. Does this mean my machine is not setup for free play?

Thanks again for all the help !!

#16 6 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member

Boothwyn, PA

11y 57,300 1,248 32

Correct..that means your game is not set up for freeplay.
Read this to set up free play:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free

If you get time, read the whole thing..

#17 6 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

I have a dealer's choice, PM me if you would like a couple of pics of various parts.

#18 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Oakley104
You would like to have manuals like this one http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1324/Jukebox.pdf (page-19 (ori-17)) ...
Where do "components" sit in the pin (?) The manual of Dealers Choice at least mentions on page-5 (ori-4) that some Adj-Plugs are on the MECH. PANEL means in the cabinet. And on page-6 (ori-5) "Backbox" and "under front of cabinet" are mentioned.
A real drag is / are: "Jones-Plug(s) connecting stuff in the cabinet and in the backbox and on the playfield and on the coin door" --- on Dealers Choice there is NO INFORMATION. "Later Williams pins like Big Deal" - see http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/245/Williams_1977_Big_Deal_Instruction_Manual.pdf the pages 14,15,16 (ori 12, 13, 14) show the Jones Plugs (Panel is Mech. Panel in the cabinet, Insert is Backbox, P.F. is Playfield)
Bally shows on many schematics such drawings of Jones-Plugs.
Really bad is: Gottlieb, Bally and Williams NEVER show in the drawing in the schematics an Jones-Plug --- we may see "Ball Release Coil - the Kicker to kick the ball over to the Shooter Alley" does kick when the Outhole-Relay is pulling and the Score-Motor is running --- (lets say) in Your pin this Kicker does not kick - You say: The Outhole-Relay is pulling and the motor is running AND have cleaned the contact points and have checked the switches to close" --- a good advice is "there is an Jones-Plug inbetween 'Playfield-Ball-Release-Coil' and 'Cabinet-Outhole-Relay / Score-Motor' - check the Jones-Plug ...".

M.B.-Switch - Make Brake Switch - WHERE did You see "Make before Break Switch" ?
I do not really like "drawings of an Score-Motor-Switch with informations like "C 1-A" or "M.B. 3-D".
The "C" stands for "closing when actuating means N.O.-Switch means Normally-Open-Switch".
The "M.B." stands for M&B-Switch - an three-bladed switch we call Make-and-Brake-Switch.
I'd waive the "C" and the "M.B." --- these informations I see in the drawing of the switch.
Then I look-up in the schematics at "here the Score-Motor is drawn": WHICH Nylon Cam is "1" - which is "3" - and I see the level there "A is near the axis" - then outbound come "B", "C", "D", "E".
The words "Make-and-Brake (Switch)" are no good --- we should say "Brake-and-Make (Switch)" - thats what they do --- people may talk about "MUST (?) the Brake-Part open (?) before the Make-Part closes (?)". I say: Most of the times / places it doesn't matter - few times / places its needed to first open the Brake-Part - then close the Make-Part.
An three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch sometimes is used "lighting left or then right a lamp indicating 'here You can make an special replay' --- such "alternating switches, M&B-Switches" I do want adjusted as "first Brake-Part opens then Make-Part closes".
Very often an three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch actually is "an Normally-Open Switch closing" and "an Normally-Closed-Switch opening" --- because of limitation in room / space - no room for to mount two single switches: The Manufacturer said: One part is needed in a feature - and the other part is needed in an other feature, feature happening at another time --- we (manufacturer) mount an three-bladed M&B-Switch --- both sides handle "common wire Yellow" - we take common wire Yellow on the middle blade.
You may want to look in the ipdb-schematics-Dealers-Choice at "schematics-A/B-13" - see the three-bladed M&B-Switch on Cam-2, position-D: The Make-Part is "feature Pulses 1st Player Match" --- the Brake-Part is "feature 2 Plays for 25 Cent" --- these two features are not related - it doesn't matter "opening first then closing" versus "closing first then opening" - common wire Yellow is on middle blade. Greetings Rolf

#19 6 years ago

???

Oakley104

Inactive member

6y 21,500 13 1

Rolf,
WOW, the Jukebox manual is PERFECT !! Too bad other machines don't have manuals like this. From looking at the Jukebox manual I'd say it contains some of the early CAD drawings. Most other and prior to these manuals are all hand drafted, suspect they didn't want to invest the time and expense to make more drawings. So, where the various components were located was what some like to call "tribal knowledge".....

The make before break switches I referred to are not used in pinball machines, sorry to add confusion. Make before break switches that I have seen are used in industrial and commercial Uninterruptable Power Systems (UPS) to transfer power when you bypass the UPS for maintenance or repair.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of M.B switches that makes sense !!

Jones plugs are the mult- pin plugs used to disconnect some of the items from the main cabinet, right ?? Have heard they can create issues, have cleaned most if not all of them already.

#20 6 years ago

???

Oakley104

Inactive member

6y 21,500 13 1

Bonzo71
Thanks for the info on "Free play" we are both correct my machine was not setup free play. Just had the credit stepper out last weekend, it was all gummed up. Do have the manual you sent the link for, have not read the whole manual yet, but plan to do so.... Parts 1, 2 and 3 all have great info in them kudos to the one who put all that info together !!!

Thanks !!

#21 6 years ago

BLY

MrBally

Pinside member

Paradise, NV

12y 141K 13,936 22 1

For your coin mechs, contact Rick at Planetary Pinball Supply. He's the KING of coin mechs for Williams machines.

#22 6 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

You can get the manual and schematic from Pinball Resources, that's where I got mine years ago.

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