(Topic ID: 54698)

Williams Cyclone outhole kicker & other issues

By squareric

10 years ago


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  • 44 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by squareric
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#1 10 years ago

Greetings fellow Pinsiders!

After replacing the CPU board (thanks to arakissun for replacement), I got a Cyclone from no boot up to mostly working with these issues:

Adjust Switch 18 then C. DROP TARGET 18 message displayed on boot up. No other errors.
Outhole kicker not firing when working outhole switch triggered. No voltage change from zero observed across coil with DMM monitoring during outhole switch trigger. Measuring 4.8 ohms across coil. Confirmed continuity from each lead to its connectors on the Aux power driver board. Confirmed continuity from related points on connector to related diode(s) D45, etc. Continuity okay from related points between aux power and CPU. Measuring ~ .5v from metal tab of Q33 (for outhole coil) and other driver transistors and their respective outer leads. Replaced this coil with same results.

Found blown 2.5A coil fuse under playfield. Only had 2A replacement which blew immediately. Currently have 3A circuit breaker across it for testing while awaiting 2.5A replacement.

Shuttle kicker firing about every 5 seconds during boot up

System immediately tilts after boot up completes about 90% of power ups. Can start a game if outhole switch depressed a few times.

Spook house drop target stays down and coil does not work. Measuring 4 ohms across. Can manually lift up drop target and force down to trigger spook house mode/music. When mode ends the sound effect of spook house closing plays but no voltage change monitoring with DMM.
Ferris Wheel music cue sometimes randomly triggered, especially when ball on the shuttle kicker switch. Ferris wheel switch works but doesn't always start motor after playing a few minutes. Seems logic-related more than motor/mechanical issue.

Found blown 2.5A coil fuse under playfield. Only had 2A replacement which blew immediately (no surprise since its lower rating.) Temporarily have 3A circuit breaker across it for testing while awaiting 2.5A replacement. Above issues persist and hasn't tripped yet.
Game is otherwise playable with the playfield glass off to manually move ball from drain to plunger. Buzzed almost every driver transistor and diode to confirm proper .4-.6v on CPU & Aux Power boards as well as playfield diodes.

Any suggestions what direction to head next? Does it sound like I have an allusive short somewhere and if so what would be the best way to work toward isolating it? If all I fix is the outhole kicker I'll at least be able to play with the glass on Any advice appreciated!

Squareric

Proud owner of a whopping ONE pin working 90%

3 weeks later
#2 10 years ago

I have not seen the "adjust switch error" myself. If I were guessing, I'd say check to make sure that switch isn't closed when it's supposed to open or vice-versa. It could be booting up, seeing that closed when it's supposed to be open.

Have you replaced Q33?

Fix one problem at a time. You might find they're interrelated.

#3 10 years ago
Quoted from gibbous:

I have not seen the "adjust switch error" myself. If I were guessing, I'd say check to make sure that switch isn't closed when it's supposed to open or vice-versa. It could be booting up, seeing that closed when it's supposed to be open.

This - specifically the switch in front of the kicker. If it's jammed closed (and it happens - I've seen it personally) it thinks the ball is there and is looking to get it out back to the outhole.

Switch 18 is the opto on the drop target. Might need to clean the opt, might need to replace it. Try the former first.

Look at page 29 of the manual for a better explanation of how the circuit works. If the only thing not working is the outhole kicker, but the if the jackpot flashers and left advance ferris wheel bonus flasher works, suspect a bad diode or coil on the outhole kicker that needs replacing.

viperrwk

#4 10 years ago

Replaced Q33 and Outhole Kicker coil, no change. Cleaned Drop Target Opto. Same adjust switch 18 message plus now I get a Adjust Switch 31 Comet message as well. Comet switch works fine during play.

Switch above outhole seems to work fine. I measure continuity only when depressed. Same behavior tested with the working shuttle switch.

At some point the playfield "fuse" tripped (actually a 3A circuit breaker across for testing). I reset and hasn't tripped for awhile.

Jackpot flashers and left advance ferris wheel bonus flashers work.

Backbox GI doesn't seem to work (can hear clicking during test).

Only thing I haven't swapped out are the diodes on the aux board. They test fine when I remove the interconnects isolating the board. Do I still need to remove these diode(s) from the board to get an accurate reading?

#5 10 years ago

Update: Somehow when I moved the display the backbox GI & outhole kicker coil started working in test mode and will repeat for several minutes in single test! Haven't gotten this coil to work during normal play though although GI remains on. Wiggling main board interconnect wires during single test didn't interrupt the outhole coil from firing and it intermittently stops firing when I don't touch the machine at all. Another recent symptom is the left flipper is intermittently weak during play. So far haven't been able to reproduce issues on demand, just seem to happen randomly.

#6 10 years ago

Just did some logic probing. Pins 1 and 3 on that U20 7408 IC and pin 2 on U28 pulse high in unison with the outhole kicker firing during its single test. All other pins are either nothing or constant high (nothing goes low). During gameplay if I depress the outhole switch I get a single pulse high from each of these pins but the outhole kicker coil DOES NOT fire. It's like something isn't working logically during play mode. Once in a while the outhole kicker doesn't file. At no time did I see any "high to low" activity probing U20 during outhole kicker test.

One time when I powered on the Cyclone quickly after shutting it off I got a U10 PIA FAILURE message. Haven't reproduced this yet and 99% of the time I power on I get switch 18 and 31 adjust failures.

Ground wire on the interconnect for backbox GI was loose and showed evidence of overheating/burning and melted the molex around it, which was causing the GI to cut out when I swing the backbox board open or closed. I did a hack solder job on this wire to the molex crimp (until I can replace the connector) and the GI stays on consistently now.

Playfield "fuse" has not tripped yet today.

#7 10 years ago

Not sure if there are other optos on the game you can switch out to test, but that would be my next step.

#8 10 years ago

Let's tackle the switch issues. Coils not firing in game could be a bad coil or bad switch so you want to make sure all your switches are working. You have to isolate whether the switch problems are on the playfield or MPU. Remove connectors 1P8 and 1P10 from the MPU - these are the two connectors in the middle on the bottom of the board. Put the machine in switch edges test (07 in player 3 display.)

Connect a jumper wire to pin 9 on 1J10 (left-most pin on left header where you pulled the connector.) Now, touch each pin on 1J8 starting from pin 1, as you touch each the display should show switches 1,9,17,25,33,41,49 and 57 in succession. Then repeat this procedure. Connect a jumper wire to pin 9 on 1J8 (left-most pin on right header where you pulled the connector.) Now, touch each pin on 1J10 starting from pin 1, as you touch each the display should show switches 64,63,62,61,60,59, 58 and 57 in succession. If you get each switch registering in test like this you know the switch matrix circuitry on the MPU is good and you can concentrate looking for switch problems from the harness connector to the playfield.

viperrwk

#9 10 years ago

Touch each pin as described and display showed the exact numbers in sequence. I guess that eliminates the MPU. During the switch levels test 06 display just keeps repeating drop target switch 18. I'll clean the drop target opto again as the whole assembly seems pretty dirty. If that doesn't work should I buy a $25 opto board replacement? Unfortunately there are no other optos on this table.

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from squareric:

Touch each pin as described and display showed the exact numbers in sequence. I guess that eliminates the MPU. During the switch levels test 06 display just keeps repeating drop target switch 18. I'll clean the drop target opto again as the whole assembly seems pretty dirty. If that doesn't work should I buy a $25 opto board replacement? Unfortunately there are no other optos on this table.

Assuming its doing this regardless of whether the drop is up or down. You can try replacing the opto - don't remember the spec ATM. Would have to check in the morning. Could also be the transistor on the board has failed as well. The GLM board is a nice piece. Depends upon whether you want to give DIY a shot or spend more money and just get it fixed.

And there is another opto on Cyclone for the mystery wheel.

viperrwk

#11 10 years ago

Thanks Viper. Reckon I'll just bite the bullet and buy the SY11-1DT board from GLM.

#12 10 years ago

Oh and yes I get the switch 18 message whether the target is up or down.

#13 10 years ago

You can double check the problem is on the board by disconnecting it from the harness. If the error goes away you know the problem is on the board. You'll be happy with the GLM board.

viperrwk

#14 10 years ago

Have you ran your switch edge test? I went through a similar situation. Switch edge test lead me to several jammed switches which screwed up the whole matrix and caused ghost switching depending on if there was a ball in the outhole.

I thought for sure it was a complicated issue...it wasn't. You cannot effectively troubleshoot this until you verify you don't have any stuck switches. The ramp switches are notorious for getting jammed. I also had a busted rubber under a ramp that had led to a stuck scoring switch.

#15 10 years ago

Did some more testing and found the switch 18 message now goes away with drop target up (maybe cleaning eventually helped). I was testing the wrong Comet switch and found the actual switch 31 was stuck under playfield and its linkage to the Comet Entry is missing. With both these switches unstuck I get no switch activity during switch edge test and every switch I press indicates its working. I presume this means I no longer have any stuck switches. Unfortunately the outhole kicker coil sometimes doesn't fire during coil test and has never worked during gameplay, even if I immediately try to play after successful test without disturbing any wiring. Kicker switch always works when ball depresses it.)

#16 10 years ago

How's Q29?

#17 10 years ago

Installed GLM Opto Board. Ball still does not knock down drop target (Some mechanical/assembly issue I'll need to figure out.) Pressing down target by hand starts spook house mode but mode end does not raise target. No switch messages during startup or switch test if the drop target's up.

Ordered/awaiting replacement for Q29 (pre-driver transistor for outhole kicker driver Q33)

Persistent issues:

When powering on shuttle kicker coil fires every 5 seconds for several minutes and cannot start a game with free play mode on. After ~ 5 minutes pressing game start will cause game to DANGER then TILT without moving table at all. Pressing a combination of the outhole switch and credit button eventually starts a multiplayer game with 2nd player up (as if player 1 instantly tilted upon startup.) Plumb bob and playfield tilt switches register fine during switch test and are not easily triggered during game (their contacts are sufficiently apart). During play the ferris wheel music triggers intermittently, often when both flippers pressed or other strong coil firing activity and I notice ferris wheel will usually stop spinning. Outhole kicker never works during gameplay (mostly works during test) but its switch always works. Can't find any other unusual gameplay issues.

#18 10 years ago

If you pull the connectors at 1P8 and 1P10 and turn the machine on I assume the shuttle coil still fires continuously. The behavior you describe sounds like a stuck shuttle switch but you are not getting any switch errors now, so wanted to confirm.

Given your other outhole problem I'd check and reseat the connector at 1P11.

Also check your playfield tilt switch.

viperrwk

#19 10 years ago

Confirmed continuity between IJ11 & the corresponding J1 on Aux Power board. Reseated IJ11. Shuttle coil still continuously fires with IJ8 & IJ10 pulled.

I'm noticing strange behavior during switch edge test. For the first few minutes the shooter, outhole, cyclone and bottom three shuttle switches repeatedly don't register but most other switches register during test. Then after a few minutes these switches will register correctly but sometimes the wrong item will display, such as "100k Shuttle" when I depress the outhole switch or "Not Used" when pressing shooter switch. Similar behavior after several power cycles. Haven't yet correlated the depression of any particular switch prior to these other switches suddenly working.

I have a replacement for Q29 and will likely solder it in this weekend. Before I do, any suggestions on testing this transistor in-circuit or is it almost as much effort to desolder old/solder new?

Having trouble finding *1.25 inch* 2.5A replacement fuses, finding only short 2.5A's so I'm still working with a 3A circuit breaker across the 2.5A playfield fuse connector.

#20 10 years ago

Outhole coil intermittently cuts out during continuous test. At one point it seemed to come on when I pressed the outhole switch, another time when I wiggled the drop target connector. I'm wiggling wires and connectors under playfield during outhole coil test trying to reproduce a cause and effect and no luck so far. Seems like if something on one of the backbox boards was bad I'd see more consistent symptoms so I'm leaning toward something loose/bad under the playfield.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from squareric:

I'm noticing strange behavior during switch edge test. For the first few minutes the shooter, outhole, cyclone and bottom three shuttle switches repeatedly don't register but most other switches register during test. Then after a few minutes these switches will register correctly but sometimes the wrong item will display, such as "100k Shuttle" when I depress the outhole switch or "Not Used" when pressing shooter switch.

Even though it tested ok earlier you might still be having a problem with the switch matrix but since what you describe is all over the matrix it doesn't point to a particular row or column. I'd pull the switch matrix connectors again and put it switch levels test and let it sit a while and see if any switches register. If so you have to look at U38 and U40 on the CPU board.

viperrwk

#22 10 years ago

During switch levels test with IJ8 & IJ10 disconnected the following items cycle through display: Left jet, Left flipper, M.Wheel H.Opto, 10 Pt. R. Mid, Shuttle 100k, Shooter Lane, Ducks Middle, Ferris Wheel, Playfield Tilt, Right Coin Sw (and several "Not Used" interspersed.) After a few cycles of this the left jet appears to fire and the display then just sits at the switch levels test.

I've also noticed the Adjust Switch 18 Drop Target messages now comes on at bootup again with the target up and locked with the new Opto board installed, even when I disconnect the opto board.

#23 10 years ago

With your drop target exhibiting problems and problems with your outhole switch, and the other switches you mention, they are all tied to the 4011 gate at U30. You could also have a problem with the 3.3k ohm resistor pack at SR14, or the PIA at U38. If the PIA is socketed, I would swap that out first to see if that solves the problem.

Any evidence of battery corrosion on the board? Have to consider this causing a problem if there is.

viperrwk

#24 10 years ago

No corrosion from the batteries evident. Unfortunately the U38 PIA is not socketed. From Pin 1 of SR14 I'm measuring 3.3k ohms to pins 2-5. From Pin 1 to pins 6-10 measuring infinite - not sure if this indicates a fault, would seem so if this is a bus type. Pins 9-10 and 8-9 measure 6.6k ohms across.

Ordering some 4011's & sockets, 6821's & sockets and the 3.3k ohm resistor packs from Jameco tonight. I presume replacing U30 first is in order and also SR14 if suspected bad.

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from squareric:

From Pin 1 of SR14 I'm measuring 3.3k ohms to pins 2-5. From Pin 1 to pins 6-10 measuring infinite - not sure if this indicates a fault,

It does. You should be getting about 3.3k from pin 1 to the rest of the pins on SR14. I just double checked on mine and I do. Since you're not I would change that first.

viperrwk

#26 10 years ago

Checked SR14 resistance again with MPU removed and actually tested 3.3k from pins 1 to every other pin so left that in (I probably didn't get test probes contacting on the higher pins previously with MPU in backbox.) Replaced U30 and shuttle coil no longer repeatedly firing each time I power up. Outhole kicker still not working though even during repeated outhole coil test. All switches register okay immediately after several power ups. Left Switch Edge Test running for 30 minutes so far and nothing triggering by itself.

#27 10 years ago

So at least it seems the switch issues have been solved.

Check for power at the coil - should get voltage at both lugs.

Check to see the coil is operating properly if you're getting voltage by grounding the coil. If all other coils are working and no other problems are evident it points directly at the coil/coil diode/wiring.

viperrwk

#28 10 years ago

Yes we seem to be making progress with shuttle coil no longer firing and switches all working!

Getting Drop Target Switch 18 error again on startup even with opto board unplugged. Measuring 3.8 ohms across recently replaced outhole coil and 15-20v from each lug to ground during repeated outhole coil test. During switch edge test lugs measure 6.4v and 1.4v when game in attract.

#29 10 years ago

Did the outhole coil you replaced have a diode on it? If it does cut it off. The coil diodes for that game are on the aux power driver board. You also need to check the diodes for the outhole kicker on that board at D1 (1N4003), D45 and D46 (MR501.)

viperrwk

#30 10 years ago

Coil itself did not have a diode. I'll test those diodes tonight and replace as needed.

#31 10 years ago

Removed aux board and D1 measuring .51v, D45 & D46 are .508v in circuit (measure open opposite polarity). Should I remove a lead of each diode from circuit to confirm test?

#32 10 years ago

Replaced D45 & D46. Outhole coil works during test but not during play. Left switch edge test on for an hour and counting - only the disconnected Drop Target Switch complains at beginning and goes away.

Connected drop target board and Outhole coil no longer fires during test. Found under playfield 2.5A fuse open, replaced and outhole still doesn't fire during test whether drop target connected or not.

If I should replace D1 I'll either have to order 1n4003's or confirm 1n4004's that I have can be substituted.

1 week later
#33 10 years ago

Lifted play field during outhole coil test and it started firing. Intermittently cut out while moving play field up and down. When it kept firing I closed the playfield and put the ball return cover on and it sparked against the plunger cover! The play field does rub on the right side of the cabinet I suspect something may be shorting on that side. Going to investigate.

#34 10 years ago

Look for anything loose/out of place as what you described should not be happening. Btw your diode readings are ok so definitely seems you have a short somewhere.

viperrwk

1 week later
#35 10 years ago

Still trying to find anything unusual or out of place. Measuring voltage in attract mode I get only ~ 6.7 volts between either coil lug and cabinet ground on both the outhole and drop target coils. Both coils still exhibit 3.8 ohms resistance. All other coils test in normal voltage range (25-80 volts per guide).

If I momentarily complete the circuit between cabinet ground and each coil lug with the thinner wire I can get every coil to fire except outhole and drop target.

Retested all fuses in backbox and under playfield and all pass DMM continuity.

#36 10 years ago

If I run continuous outhole coil test it doesn't fire unless I trigger either slingshot or flipper.

Not sure if this is normal but I was getting continuity between the thin wires of the outhole (violet-brown) and drop target coil (violet-green). I cut the thin wire from drop target coil and no change with the outhole coil test.

#37 10 years ago

The power wiring for the coils chain. Power comes to the coil on one lug then a wire goes from that same lug to the next coil. The single wire on the coil is the return to the board where the driver transistor completes the circuit to fire the coil. The exception to this I believe is the outhole coil since I think its last but I'd have to goback and confirm this.

It is hard to follow the wiring but unfortunately I think its your only choice to insure that all coils are gettingpower.

I just fixed a flipper that wasn't firing. Was a bad solder joint on the lug. When I tested for voltage it was ok because the process of putting the meter lead on the coil lug completed the circuit and I had voltage. After eliminating everything else went back to the coil, resoldered, it worked.

viperrwk

#38 10 years ago

I installed a new drop target coil and reflowed the solder on the new outhole coil with same behavior. I measure >3.8 ohms across lugs of both coils. Seems like if there was bad continuity from any lug to its coil wiring I'd see much greater resistance.

The outhole coil does appear at the end of a chain as each lug has only one wire. The larger brown wire is chained to the drop target coil, then the playfield fuse, then leads to the backbox/aux board. I get continuity from these coil lugs to the corresponding aux board pin.

Not sure how to exactly narrow down where the problem is in the wiring. Since there's only 17v from these coil lugs to the metal playfield siderail (when it should be 25-80v per guide), should I be looking for some wiring fault/short that is robbing this power or could there be a power deficiency from the aux board?

#39 10 years ago
Quoted from squareric:

I installed a new drop target coil and reflowed the solder on the new outhole coil with same behavior. I measure >3.8 ohms across lugs of both coils. Seems like if there was bad continuity from any lug to its coil wiring I'd see much greater resistance.
The outhole coil does appear at the end of a chain as each lug has only one wire. The larger brown wire is chained to the drop target coil, then the playfield fuse, then leads to the backbox/aux board. I get continuity from these coil lugs to the corresponding aux board pin.
Not sure how to exactly narrow down where the problem is in the wiring. Since there's only 17v from these coil lugs to the metal playfield siderail (when it should be 25-80v per guide), should I be looking for some wiring fault/short that is robbing this power or could there be a power deficiency from the aux board?

You have the wiring correct although the brown wire does also go through a 9 pin connector in the cabinet before getting to the aux power driver board (makes it easy to remove the playfield.)

If your connectors are all good and you're getting continuity to the coils and fuse, you have to suspect the aux power board and specifically the connector since the other coils are working and have correct voltage.

viperrwk

#40 10 years ago

A-ha! I never noticed the 9-pin and other connector for the coil wiring before because they would hide behind the playfield whenever I lifted it up. The problem seems to be in the other coil playfield connector with the mostly purple wires - wiggling them at this connector I got the outhole coil to fire and the drop target coil to fire just once during their continuous test! Now I'll need to pry this connector apart, find a place to order these connectors (may as well order a kit) and learn how to crimp/install new connectors.

Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and the day I can play my Cyclone with the backglass on!

#41 10 years ago

The violet wires with the tracer colors on them are the returns for the coils. You can buy the removal tool, new pins andcrimping tools from Great Plains Electronics.

viperrwk

1 week later
#42 10 years ago

Testing while awaiting connector parts. I'm getting continuity from the violet/brown wire on the outhole coil lug to the violet/brown AND violet/green pins of the unplugged 15-pin connector on the playfield side. Is this expected or does it suggest a short? I thought only the brown wires chained the coils and each violet with unique tracer color returns directly to the board without crossing.

4 months later
#43 10 years ago

Update: Replacing the molex connector/pins didn't help. Had some friends over recently and we traced continuity of the solid brown wire linking the outhole & drop target coils back to the aux board. Removed the aux board and continuity was okay up to the bank select relay. That's where we noticed some plastic clouding inside the othewise clear relay casing around the contact in the same path as the incoming brown wire. I have ordered this part from GPE and awaiting arrival. I'm hopeful replacing this will fix the issue(s)!

#44 10 years ago

Just installed the socket and relay. Hooked up the board and powered it up. The spook house drop target now works for the first time, so the relay replacement definitely fixed that! Unfortunately the outhole kicker coil and bottom pop bumper coils still do not work The random ferris wheel switch triggering still occurs. I'm fairly certain the pop bumper issue is a non-contacting molex pin but have to trace it to confirm.

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