(Topic ID: 168637)

Williams Contact - Problem with sound theme!


By mflemmin

2 years ago



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  • 45 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 86 days ago by DennisT
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

Hi,
I have finally got my old Williams Contact in a very good shape after I bought it 6 month ago!

However, I have the feeling that the sound theme, i.e. the sound I get when I play the game is wrong!?

The sound I get from my game is here:

The "right" sound is this one as I understand it:

The sound card I'm using is Type 1 Rev 2 and the Rom is Sound1

I have tested Soundboard separately in diagnostic mode and it works and if I "Ground" Pin 2,3,4,5 (Sound 10, 100, 1000, 10000) I get a sound out but no sound on pin 8 when that is grounded "Sound Alternator".

Any idea why my game sound as it sound?

Thanks it advance for any help or hints how to debug this issue.

Br,
Michael

#2 2 years ago

Is the sound ROM the original one, or one somebody burned?

I've had a similar experience with a contact while repairing a board for the customer - sounded wrong. Customer had the original prom, put it back in, and it sounded right.

#3 2 years ago

I have tried with the ROM which was in the game when I bought it. I think this is original as it has a label saying SOUND1,
and I have tried to replace it with the ROM data from IPDB.org but same result as original one -> wrong sound!

#4 2 years ago

Can the problem maybe be the Game Rom - I guess that one controls the sound card?

#5 2 years ago

I would not suspect the game ROM. The sounds are controlled by transistors on the driver board. Those are called by the game ROM, but the game wouldn't play / score properly if the game ROM were incorrect.

#6 2 years ago

My wild guess would be that the sound board ROM is from another game. This sounds nothing like my Contact, nor any of the others I've played. Since the sound card is controlled by couple of solenoid controls, the CPU has no part in the sounds, except triggering them. It would happily play completely wrong set of sounds.

#7 2 years ago

Thanks a lot for reply - Ok, so my sound is not the right one - very valuable to get clarified.
I have checked all solonoid signals on the PIA sound board when I run the solonoid test and they are all working and activated on the PIA input pins on Soundboard when test is activated for Solonoid 9, 10, 11, 12 13.
As the selftest is working and I get sound out I think also it must be the wrong ROM image. What else is left?
However, I have also tried the IPDB.org image with same wrong result, so that image may be wrong too?

#8 2 years ago

I found this interesting thread in the Forum: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/need-system-3-4-sound-rom-help
and expect from that information that I need a SOUND0 ROM and not a SOUND1 ROM which I am currently using.
I will get back when I have tried a SOUND0 ROM out.

#9 2 years ago

As you found in my thread, games before Flash (System 3) use different sound ROM code and (I think) everything you find on IPDB and Planetary's site is wrong and is for the later games. If you want the correct ROM code, PM me your email address and I'll get it to you.

#10 2 years ago

I swiped this pic that amkoepfer posted in another thread but this is what mine looks like:

916b8643e958e266f62dc6457af2e9765b7f7a36[1] (resized).jpg

2 weeks later
#11 2 years ago

Finally I got the right sound theme on my Williams Contact pinball!

The right sound rom is not SOUND1 as said in IPDB.org or Planetary Pinball Supply for Williams Contact!

SOUND0 ROM which is for earlier Williams SS pinball machines is most likely for Phoenix only and not for Contact.

I got another image from a Williams Contact owner which I now have installed and I'm sure this is the right Sound rom for Williams Contact:

- Maybe other Williams Contact owners can confirm?

My findings are that SOUND1 is a 2Kb image. Roughly 1Kb used.

SOUND0 is a 512Byte image repeated 4 times in a 2716, which gives 2K.

The Contact Rom image I got is 512Bytes image also repeated 4 times in a 2716, which gives 2K.

The Williams Contact image is different from the SOUND0 image, the Phoenix image.

Williams Contact ROM was originally 512Bytes.

Both 512Bytes images play a Start-up tune and this Start-up tune is also played when Solenoid 9 test is done after Solenoid test 13. This Start-up tune is not implemented in SOUND1 image.

#12 2 years ago

I hope you find a solution. I must have just had good luck when I had mine.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from mflemmin:

I have tried with the ROM which was in the game when I bought it. I think this is original as it has a label saying SOUND1,
and I have tried to replace it with the ROM data from IPDB.org but same result as original one -> wrong sound!

The early games DO NOT use SOUND1 rom like they are packed on IPDB and planetary pinball. They use what we are calling SOUND0 now (msg me for this image). It is possible there is more than one ROM for older games.

Can anyone read these?

20161001_081226 (resized).jpg

#14 2 years ago

You are absolutely right - SOUND0 was however not for Williams Contact, but as said I got another image which has same size as SOUND0 (4 x 512 bytes) but has different rom content compared to SOUND0.
It was called Contact_S0 by the owner of a Williams Contact who read out the image from his Pinball. So looks like the rom naming standard from your picture.

#15 2 years ago

I will mail them to someone who can read these. Does anyone at least have a pinout for these PROMs? I wonder if I can make an adapter so my GQ-4X can read them.

#16 2 years ago

What I read off a PROM and called SOUND0 came from Phoenix. It was 512 bytes and I quadrupled it so it would work on a 2716 EPROM. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying Contact has a different version than the SOUND0 I took off of Phoneix? If so, good to know.

Hopefully we'll get this figured out so all the early games have the correct sound available.

Quoted from barakandl:

Can anyone read these?

I created a simple adapter that let me read the PROM from Phoenix using my GQ-4x. I can read them if you like, but it was simple enough you could easily do it by looking at the schematics. I know this because you are smarter than me.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

What I read off a PROM and called SOUND0 came from Phoenix. It was 512 bytes and I quadrupled it so it would work on a 2716 EPROM. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying Contact has a different version than the SOUND0 I took off of Phoneix? If so, good to know.
Hopefully we'll get this figured out so all the early games have the correct sound available.

I created a simple adapter that let me read the PROM from Phoenix using my GQ-4x. I can read them if you like, but it was simple enough you could easily do it by looking at the schematics. I know this because you are smarter than me.

So looks like for an adapter, P18 and P19 will come out of the socket and get pulled high to VCC using a 4.7k resistor or so. Pin 21 will come out of socket and go GND. Sound right??

I will try it today. I have probably 20 of these old sound cards, most probably still have a PROM on them. I will try and read all of them and see what is same or different.

#18 2 years ago

I built an adapter and dumped all the early WMS sound PROMs i had on hand. From about 15 different 7641 masked PROMs, i got 6 different images that I think was a good read.

I labeled them the best I could, but some are unknown. Two with the same image was labeled 'OMNI', is that a shuffle board game?

World Cup
Contact
Disco Fever
Phoenix
Omni
and an unknown game is what I have found.

There was a SOUND0 prom going around that Stangbat read, that verified against the Phoenix PROM i read.

Find the images on my website. I put a link on the bottom of the repair and conversion kit page. http://nvram.weebly.com

Let me know if you think a ROM dump is good/bad/mislabeled.

Andrew

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

There was a SOUND0 prom going around that Stangbat read, that verified against the Phoenix PROM i read.

Good to know. Thanks for doing this.

I had no idea all the other ROMs were different. Makes sense though, especially since each game has its own label on the PROM. With the Phoenix ROM I figured the sounds would apply to all the other games since the "Defender" SOUND1 ROMS seem to be consistent across a wide range of titles.

So for SOUND1 WMS must have standardized on a sound package and used it on all those games. Evidently not so for the earlier games.

#20 2 years ago

The Contact ROM dump, 482-50-contact.716 is good!

#21 2 years ago

I've had a play with the new ROM dumps in MAME. I think the dumps seem ok.

There is a shuffle game called Omni. The 512 byte data in the your dump matches the Omni sound ROM dump already in the wild.

The unknown ROM seems to be the latest generation sounds of the dumps. I can probably MP3 the sound effects if anyone wants to try and work out where it came from. There are some sounds from Laser Ball in it.

BTW, in terms of the 'xxx-' ROM numbers, Phoenix game number is 485 - see below: (it's also listed in the manual)
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/images/1/1d/WMSType1SoundBoardBenchTestAnnotated.jpg
Disco Fever is 483 (as per the manual).

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The unknown ROM seems to be the latest generation sounds of the dumps.

Flash sound board input plugs have been seen pinned two different ways out in the wild (causing lack of bg sound in sys 6 setup / sound ROM 1). I wonder if the unknown sound image ROM goes with Flash games that shipped with the earlier sound board and the system 4 main board.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

I've had a play with the new ROM dumps in MAME. I think the dumps seem ok.

Can you briefly educate me in how this is done in MAME or is it in PINMAME?

#24 2 years ago

Other games that may still have an unknown unique sound ROM are.... Stellar Wars, Pokerkino, and Lucky Sevens(if L7s uses a sound board).

I can read them and return the physical IC.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Other games that may still have an unknown unique sound ROM are.... Stellar Wars

I have a Stellar Wars. It is currently folded. But if nobody has verified by the time I get it set up and work on it I'll be sure to check if I have an original PROM, and if so I'll read it and share what I get.

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Other games that may still have an unknown unique sound ROM are.... Stellar Wars, Pokerkino, and Lucky Sevens(if L7s uses a sound board).

I checked against Pokerino, Stellar Wars, Time Warp and Tri Zone but it didn't really match any of them.
Lucky 7 apparently didn't have a sound board (mechanical chimes).
Maybe it's from another shuffle game or an early version of Flash as you say.
Anyway I'll MP3 the sounds later.

Quoted from mflemmin:

Can you briefly educate me in how this is done in MAME or is it in PINMAME?

Yes, I'll came back to you later today about this, gotta head out now.

#27 2 years ago

MP3 of the unknown ROM sound effects. The last two sounds decay for some time (20 - 40 seconds).
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ysi0la

Hopefully someone might recognize what game it's from.
.

Quoted from mflemmin:

Can you briefly educate me in how this is done in MAME or is it in PINMAME?

The quick answer is that MAME will load the game ROMs as per what's on the actual hardware. Right now these system 3 games are loaded with the "SOUND1" ROM file. You will need to replace this sound file in your backup of the game zip archive with the appropriate correct dump barakandl has made, though you must rename it to "SOUND1.716" in the games zip archive. When you then run MAME it will complain about that sound file having a wrong CRC, but just ignore it.
Once in, and the games displays will come up (nothing else), you will need to press the F3 key on the keyboard to reset the games NVRAM (it's just like having a flat battery on the real thing). Then press the 5 key to insert coins, and the 1 key to start a game. Your keyboard is mapped to most of the switch matrix of the pinball, so just start pressing some keys to simulate switches on the actual machine. Scores should advance and you should hear the sound effects.

Sorry if this makes little sense, but it's just a basic overview and presumes you know how to setup/use MAME. Don't expect a Visual Pinball look - it doesn't have 3D tables hooked up. The same might be doable with PinMAME but I tried it in Visual Pinball (which kind of uses PinMAME in the background) with some system 3 tables and I didn't have any luck getting it to play any sounds from the new sound dumps.

#28 2 years ago

Thanks a lot for the MAME explanation. Very educational and useful.

It is a pity that these old Williams SS machines before Phoenix in many cases seem to have used and still use wrong versions of the sound rom. I hope these new findings will be spread so these owners so the can get it right

I can also read from IPDB for Williams Contact that one review says: "Sounds are all good except for the loud police siren that you want to make end as soon as it begins"
This load siren is what you get when using SOUND1 Prom and not the right Contact Sound prom now called: 482-50-Contact.716!

#29 2 years ago

Could it be that Williams support just provided the SOUND1 ROM later on, to make these games sound more vibrant???
.

Quoted from mflemmin:

Contact Sound prom now called: 482-50-Contact.716!

I presume the "-50-" part of the ROM names should be "-S0-" i.e. "S" for sound, not "5" five? The World Cup ROM image above looks like an "S".

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Could it be that Williams support just provided the SOUND1 ROM later on, to make these games sound more vibrant???

I really do not think so, as SOUND1 at least in Williams Contact sounds awfull in my opnion.

Quoted from Quench:

I presume the "-50-" part of the ROM names should be "-S0-" i.e. "S" for sound, not "5" five? The World Cup ROM image above looks like an "S".

Agree, I was just refering the filenames in

Quoted from barakandl:Find the images on my website. I put a link on the bottom of the repair and conversion kit page. http://nvram.weebly.com

So they should probably be changed to S0_ from -50- as pointed out.

#31 2 years ago

Ok. Great that you have your machine sounding the way it should !
BTW, many thanks to barakandl for taking the time to dump these sound ROMs.

1 week later
#32 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Flash sound board input plugs have been seen pinned two different ways out in the wild (causing lack of bg sound in sys 6 setup / sound ROM 1). I wonder if the unknown sound image ROM goes with Flash games that shipped with the earlier sound board and the system 4 main board.

So your are saying Williams System 6 machines do not have background sound?

#33 2 years ago

My Stellar Wars has Sound ROM 1 installed. I haven't bothered to read it and compare. But it looks like a factory Sound ROM 1 so I don't think I need to bother. It doesn't look like I can help shed any further light on the subject for this game.

7 months later
#34 1 year ago

Can someone who has a Contact machine with the correct Sound ROM confirm the game start sounds for me?
When pressing the start button for player 1, the game plays a 2 second sequence of random sounds as per the second video in the first post with the "right" sounds.

But what sounds are played when the start button is pressed again for 2 player, 3 player and 4 player games? Is it the sequence of random sounds again or just single tone beeps or something else?

Thanks in advance.

#35 1 year ago

Sound with correct Sound0 ROM

#36 1 year ago

mflemmin, thank you very much for the video! - that clears things up

9 months later
#37 1 year ago

Looking for sound ROM for POKERKINO.
Looking for confirmation of what ROM Tri Zone uses.
Looking for shuffle board ROMs like Aristocrat as it probably uses this sound board. Have a ROM for Omni Shuffle.

Also I think the below is correct...

Time Warp = Sound 1
Laserball = Sound 2
Stellar Wars = Sound 1

I don't think this sound board ever showed up in the video world. Looks like Defender was first and has the square shaped sound board.

1 month later
#38 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Looking for sound ROM for POKERKINO.
Looking for confirmation of what ROM Tri Zone uses.
Looking for shuffle board ROMs like Aristocrat as it probably uses this sound board. Have a ROM for Omni Shuffle.
Also I think the below is correct...
Time Warp = Sound 1
Laserball = Sound 2
Stellar Wars = Sound 1
I don't think this sound board ever showed up in the video world. Looks like Defender was first and has the square shaped sound board.

I have the Pokerino sound ROM for sure, I might have a Tri Zone

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I have the Pokerino sound ROM for sure, I might have a Tri Zone

Do you have a way to read the original Pokerkino PROM? I had to build an adapter to get my GQ-4X to read them back as a 2716.

For Tri Zone, i think it is SOUND1, but need confirmation.

Here is the WMS PROM images and info that I have collected so far which I am happy to share. OMNI is a shuffle board. I have one unknown ROM image too I read back from an unlabled chip pulled from a sound board. The data is unique... so might be another suffle board, pokerkino's, or possible a video game. I think some early Defender video games used this sound board too.

Untitled (resized).png

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Do you have a way to read the original Pokerkino PROM? I had to build an adapter to get my GQ-4X to read them back as a 2716.

My only working reader is a GQ-4X, so it probably won't read it, lol.

I can mail it to you. PM me your address.

#41 1 year ago

PM sent. I will make sure to share the sound ROM image file.

#42 1 year ago

21=gnd
19&18 pull high

Then the early sound proms can be read back as 2716.

20180512_221314 (resized).jpg

1 week later
#43 1 year ago

I got the Pokerkino sound ROM dumped (thank you Vid1900). It indeed had a unique set of data. I think that covers every pinball game's sound PROM that uses the first generation rectangle shaped sound board. I still have one unknown PROM dump I dont know what it goes to. Perhaps a shuffle or some other video arcade game. The chip was unlabeled and pulled from a large mixed batch of boards I had laying around.

If you want a zip file with all the sound PROMs send me your email in a PM. The ROM files you download from IPDB and other places usually have the wrong sound rom packed in it for games before flash.

3 weeks later
#44 11 months ago

Seems like Algar has a unique sound ROM and uses the rectangle shape sound board. I overlooked this game because it came out after blackout, alien poker, firepower, and gorgar which all used the square shaped sound board that can take a speech card.

The sound ROM is in the IPDB download and has a different checksum than all the other games. I haven't tried it on a board yet to see what kind of sounds it makes.

8 months later
#45 86 days ago

Hey guys,

I know this is a old post but I have been working on a Contact project pin I recently picked up and have a sound question.
The mpu and driver board have been repaired and the games fires right up. So here's the sound question I have. First off I had a problem with the sound just stopping in the middle of a game. The weird thing was it would quit while using the flippers. I was able to track it down to one flipper and I found it had a broken diode connection on the coil. Remaking the connection solved the sound dropping out but as to why, I don't know. Any way, while testing the sound card, I was able to trigger game sounds by grounding pins 2, 3, 4, and 5 but nothing on pin 8 as shown on the drawings.

So I was wondering can someone confirm whether there should be sound generated on pin 8 (sol 13)? I don't want to start looking for a problem that might not exist. BTW, I do have the correct sound rom installed.

Thanks!

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