(Topic ID: 201390)

Williams Comet Switch Matrix Issues

By Fordiesel69

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 18 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by terryb
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 6 years ago

    I fixed the switch matrix problem on the MPU and after about 30-45 minutes of use it failed again. I think I may have a prob with the game blowing the board.

    I need some help deciphering these voltages.

    I tested J8 and J10 wiring unplugged from MPU. Here is the results in DC with black lead on braided ground, and red on each wire with game in attract mode.

    J8:
    1- .1
    2- .017
    3- 2.226
    4- .470
    5- 1.307
    6- UNUSED
    7- 1.113 to 3.336
    8- 2.538
    9- .133

    J10
    1- .046
    2- .208
    3- .1 to .3
    4- UNUSED
    5- .048
    6- .056 - .3
    7- .072
    8- .064
    9- .023

    Not sure what sense to make of it.....HELP

    #2 6 years ago

    With those connectors unplugged you are only measuring extraneous, un-useful values.

    #3 6 years ago

    How can I make sure nothing on the game is blowing up the board. My pinbot does not have those high of voltages. They are all 0.0xx volts whereas this comet is 2.5v on some and 0.1xx and 0.3xx.

    My thought is I put all new chips in the board and now they have failed again....

    #4 6 years ago

    2.5 volts is not overtly high and shouldn't damage a 5 volt chip. It is in "the middle" of a HI and LO signal and could cause a chip or circuit to "lock up" trying to process it.

    #5 6 years ago

    Try checking for A/C voltage. As J-8 pin 7 seems not right.

    #6 6 years ago

    What was wrong with the matrix and what did you do to fix it?

    What are the symptoms of the current failure?

    #8 6 years ago

    We were standing at the machine with it in attract mode and it tilted out for no reason. We went to play and any switch you touched would tilt and add player. In switch test wacky things were going on where all the switches would fire if you wanted only one. This was done with connectors were removed as to isolate problem with board only. Cold or hot, it would do this always. I pulled board and replaced both PIAs both 4011 buffers, and the main SN74LS244N decoder chip. Tested resistor networks and transistors. All were good. Reinstall board and all was well for a while. Now it is back to wacky things again.

    4 months later
    #9 6 years ago

    I have shot gunned the entire switch matrix circuit on the board. So far:

    -Replaced Both 6821 PIA's + Sockets due to cosmetic corrosion.
    -Replaced both 4011 Buffer chips and sockets
    -Replaced SN74LS244N decoder and its socket
    -Replaced all (8) 2N3904's

    You can typically fire it up cold and maybe get a half a game and in some cases a full game out of it before it starts to have phantom switches.

    Safe to say im done with it. Unless anyone has some further advice.

    #10 6 years ago

    Have you checked the 5 volt filter cap on the power supply board? When it goes bad some strange switch faults can happen. A dmm set for ac volts can be used to test the cap.

    #11 6 years ago

    I will check it. I do not beleive it could be that simple, but worth the try for sure.....

    #12 6 years ago

    Someplace you have high voltage or AC (GI) intermittently shorting to the switch matrix. After you have the failure I would troubleshoot the issue rather than shotgunning and see if you can identify which row or column is being blown. At that point it is likely traveling up the circuit and blowing other components, but you could at least narrow it down to 8 switches that need to be visually inspected.

    #13 6 years ago

    None of the shotgun parts I replaced tested bad. I put all the IC;s into a chip tester and they were fine. Other than the acid damage and cosmetic cleanup, it was all a waste, but now I know those components are good and are now socketed. The PIAs were rotted but still fine. During the unsoldering the legs fell off. So again the chips were fine, just the legs were not.

    What I was not clear on, is when the board warms up (about 3 - 5 min) with the connectors for the switch unplugged unplugged, I can jumper for one switch and get all at the same time. I have disconnected the plugs therefore isolating the issue to the mpu and not the machine. J8 pin 7 and 8 have bounching voltages just sitting, and frankly all of them do, but I do not have anything to compare it to.

    The problem happened when I removed the mpu for cabinet cleaning and about 2 hrs later it went wacky. I think flexing the board, disrupted a joint somewhere.

    #14 6 years ago
    Quoted from Fordiesel69:

    None of the shotgun parts I replaced tested bad. I put all the IC;s into a chip tester and they were fine. Other than the acid damage and cosmetic cleanup, it was all a waste, but now I know those components are good and are now socketed. The PIAs were rotted but still fine. During the unsoldering the legs fell off. So again the chips were fine, just the legs were not.

    Thanks for the info.

    Just to confirm you are testing on the cpu with the cables unplugged, not the wiring?

    The columns should be pulsed (IJ8) and the rows high (IJ10). Depending on the meter some will read an average voltage (RMS) while others will show a bouncing voltage. The columns are best tested with a logic probe.

    You could try freeze spray on the components/joints to see if the matrix will start working again.

    Also system 9 games tend to have problems with the solder joints. See the following. Check the switch matrix components for cold solder joints.

    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Sporadic_Problems_in_General_-_System_9

    #15 6 years ago

    Actually not.

    I unplugged the switch matrix connectors from the board. Powered on the game, while in attract mode, tested for stray voltages coming from the game on each wire hopeing to find and simple issue before condeming the board.

    I have a oszifox probescope like clay used back in the day of his guides, but I honestly dont know how to use it to test this issue. I stick it on the board headers, and dont know what to look for. My pinbot works perfect and it too jumps all over the place on the probescope.

    #16 6 years ago

    On the rows you should see something like the first image in the following post and something like the second image on the columns.

    If you disconnect the row and column connectors and then take readings on the playfield wiring you will just get random readings.

    1 week later
    #17 6 years ago

    So to keep it easy moving forward, I want to power the game on, and test each wire on the connector WITHOUT them being plugged into the MPU. This way I can verify there is no lamp voltage and solenoid bleed getting into it roasting the chips. I assume it is as simple as leave the two off and booting the game up.

    #18 6 years ago

    Yes. You will read some random noise with the cables disconnected, but will be obvious if you have AC or high voltage.

    This is the post I was referring to in my previous post.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes#post-2512742

    Makes a lot more sense with the link provided.

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