Blackout
Williams, 1980Quoted from Flip-it-good:Yes, Pin 1=0. Pin 3= -100.5v. Pin 4= 93.3vdc and Pin 5 is exactly 5 volts. Pin 4 is lower because I replaced the diode in the power supply to try and add some life to the displays I have with slightly less voltage. Can't even tell. Displays are bright once they warm up and all digits are on.
If you modded the power supply then both the positive and negative supplies should be reduced to 91ish. Did you replace both ZR2 and ZR4 with 91V zeners?
Only did one so far. That's why the one is 93v and the other is still 100. There's some component that when it gets warm sends the correct info to the displays...if I thought throwing myself down a flight of stairs would help i'd do it!
Here's a theory I just tested.... Since all the digits eventually come back when the system warms up, I decided to take a hair dryer set to "Hot" and aim it at the IC chips on the master display board. The thousands and hundreds digits came up within 30 seconds rather than 5-10 minutes. I'm not a rocket scientist but this should tell me something....
So, short of buying each IC chip a tiny electric blanket to keep each one warm and cozy, Im thinking to replace them. The trick is which one. I'm sure it's written somewhere which chip controls the hundreds and thousands....So, later after the machine cools off again I will isolate and try one chip at a time with the hair dryer. Crazy!
Quoted from zacaj:Didn't you swap the master display board before with no effect?
That was my thought also......
I did. I thought about that but then why is this heat up making a difference? Unless the MDB I used had a similar issue. He tells me it was a good board....and when I installed it the exact same thing with the displays....hmmm. I'm ready to call Wolffpac and put the LED's in and call it a day....hate to give up but there's no conclusive answer....
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Yes, Pin 1=0. Pin 3= -100.5v. Pin 4= 93.3vdc and Pin 5 is exactly 5 volts. Pin 4 is lower because I replaced the diode in the power supply to try and add some life to the displays I have with slightly less voltage. Can't even tell. Displays are bright once they warm up and all digits are on.
ZR1 on the MDB reduces the 100V supply an additional 10V. So in essence the circuit is seeing +80V and -100V which is a spread of 20V as opposed to the normal 10V. I know later plasma DMDs have troubles if their supply voltages are out of spec. Wonder if a similar situation applies to earlier numeric display?
Can you put the 100V zener back in the positive 100v power supply or lower the -100 supply by installing a 91V zener?
I just ordered zener #2 today. But, before I put any zeners in, the displays were doing the same thing with the hundreds and thousands digits. I only put the zeners in to help extend the life of the displays I still have. I also ordered an MC14543B chip today. That's the chip that when I heat it up with the hair dryer seems to cause the digits to come up way faster. If this doesn't work I'm definitely going to go LED. If I were to replace all the chips and the resistors on the MDB it would cost about the same or more than the led system. Some chips are fairly cheap but others are nearly impossible to find that aren't counterfeit and when you do find oem's they're very expensive...I'll keep u posted!! 
Which one, there are 2 of them?
One drives the MDB display and players 1 and 2 and the other players 3 and 4? If the displays are exhibiting the same problem no matter which position they are connected, its very unlikely that both these chips failed in the same way.
Can you connect one of your displays to the player 3 or 4 cable and double check it they both still have the same problem? That will help narrow this down.
In any event, you should reflow the solder to the suspect chip before replacing it. Heat related changes can be caused by cold solder joints.
Wow, all great input thank you! This will now throw everything I said in the last post out the window...So here is the last test I did a few hours ago...instead of heating the circuit board or any chips, this time I actually just heated the two left edge connectors that attach to the MDB. I attached them and the displays came right up. All 4 positions! At the suggestion of another pinsider I checked the voltage at the 6 pin edge connector on the top left side of the MDB cold and warm and also checked voltage at the power supply, top left connector. The readings were nearly identical. Here are the readings at the 6 position edge connector, top left of MDB...these are similar readings at the power supply, cold then warm...
Cold Pin 1: -99
2: +91
3: 5
4: 0
5: 0
6: -99.9
Warm Pin 1: -101.2
2: +94.6
3:. 5
4:. 0
5:. 0
6: -101.3
As the boards warm up, voltage increases. But why then if I only heated the connectors ONLY with the hair dryer and not the MDB or any components does it work fine cold? Is the heat affecting the metal pins in the Molex connector in some way that more energy flows to the MDB? Should I re-contact the crimped pins in the edge connector ? I'm really puzzled here.
You are correct sir! I ordered the 6 pin housing and some new bifurcated split pins (terminals). Thank you for letting me know that the other type of pin (truficon) will not work with this high voltage connector. New soundboard should be here shortly from Jeff Kohout at PinballPCB.com. A very sincere thank you to all of you who have pitched in over the last several weeks with ideas tips tricks and your shared knowledge base. I appreciate it more than you know and I am hopefully one step away from giving my 10-year-old his Christmas gift! Will keep you posted once the MDB connector comes in and I install the soundboard...
I am dealing with this same display problem on my Blackout. 100s digit sometimes "warms up" on all displays. Swapping in another display driver board didn't change the situation. I have not solved it yet.
Just got all the edge connector pins from Great Plains Electronics and installed them today and no change with the displays. Thousands and hundreds digits still blank until it warms up. Again, if I take the hair dryer and warm up that 6 pin connector they come up very quickly within 60 seconds.
On a brighter note, I received Jeff Kohout's replacement sound / speech board combo from pinballpcb.com and all sounds are back including background sound. Crisp and clear. The speech actually sounds very clear, from what I hear this one had speech that was very difficult to understand. There's a lot of "Firepower" (1980) sound flavor in there!
All zener diodes also are now replaced and display power down to 91-93 volts. Also replaced ceramic disc capacitors C8, C12, C14, C17 on the power supply. Found 2 reasonably priced score displays over the weekend. They'll be here in a few days and I will then have player three and four on the board! I'm at a loss at this point but I'd like to thank everyone who has pitched in over the last several months to try and figure this out...it's probably just one of those hidden eccentricities I'll have to live with....
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IC5 is very close to that connector. It is possible you are heating it up just as much as the connector. IC5 is the BCD decoder for P1, P2 and Master. Maybe reflow solder to IC5. Of course, IC5 would only be the problem if the condition is limited to P1, P2 and the master and P3 and P4 work perfectly.
I am also having the "warm up" problem. I swapped in my wolfpac display driver and one display and had no change in the issue. So, at least for me, the display driver and display are not the issue. I have a rotten dog 327 that I could swap in to verify if it's a mpu issue or not. I can try that next. If that proofs out, then it's got to be connectors.
Yes all four displays do exactly the same behavior at the same time. Missing thousands and hundreds digit until warm. Thousands digit always comes up first and then the hundreds digit eventually fades in next. I'll reflow those pins on IC5 just in case but I did isolate it very well with a piece of cardboard when I did the hair dryer test so that I was only heating the connector. It is a puzzler. Something is causing that and it's like an itch I have to scratch!
Shot in the dark....
Changed out IC5 (MC14543B) on the MDB.
No change.
Is it possible to measure the voltage on a single good digit at first power-up and then compare it to the voltage of a dead digit and maybe watch the multimeter while the hundreds and thousands digits fade in to see if those voltages increase over, say a 5 minute period? since all four displays do exactly the same thing with the fade up is there a central point I can measure voltage at as it warms up for the same digit in all four displays?
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Is it possible to measure the voltage on a single good digit at first power-up and then compare it to the voltage of a dead digit and maybe watch the multimeter while the hundreds and thousands digits fade in to see if those voltages increase over, say a 5 minute period? since all four displays do exactly the same thing with the fade up is there a central point I can measure voltage at as it warms up for the same digit in all four displays?
Yes it is.
Just follow the schematic and measure at the connector.
BE CAREFULL 100V (plus or minus) has a nasty bite.
You can lossen a display and let it hang forward.
That way you can measure at the back of the board.
Or mount the display in reverse (glass to the wood).
Write down the pin numbers on the board to avoid mistakes.
Williams_System-6_Master_Display_Board_schematic.pdfI don't know if this test did anything but I measured the hundreds and thousands pins at all four displays. When I first turned the machine on they read around 14 or 15 volts and then climb to about 18 or 19 when the machine was fully warm.... but all the other digits that work right away measured about the same: 17.9 to 19 volts DC. Both the hundreds and thousands digits on every display measured around that same voltage even though the digit was blank and not glowing yet. As the digits started to fade in the power went up a few volts. Now that the machine is fully warmed up, player one measures 18.1volts at the hundreds digit, P two 18.6, P three 19.4 and P four 15.1. All four displays have 94.4 volts coming in on the center trace.
I will try that in a few hours! Thank you for the feedback!! I found an SN74154 4-16 decoder online. Is that the same? Only says 74154 on the Williams Schematic.
Quoted from Flip-it-good:I will try that in a few hours! Thank you for the feedback!! I found an SN74154 4-16 decoder online. Is that the same? Only says 74154 on the Williams Schematic.
Yes it is.
Put it on the platter and let the DJ revolve it!!!!
Bam!! Both the thousands and hundreds digits came up in 7 seconds! Bingo! Thank you so much for the direction Pintec! Chip will be ordered today. I'm not sure why but this chip heated also helps all of my switched under-playfield feature lighting come up much quicker as well. Without the hair dryer, turned on cold, not only do the thousands and hundreds digits come up very slowly but perhaps 10% of the feature lights were weak and took a while to come up as well. Now, heating that chip, everything came up in less than 10 seconds! Thank you again!
IMG_20210306_152051 (resized).jpg
SN74125 chip ordered! I'd like to take a moment to thank everybody on this particular string that pitched in over the months to help us get our machine up and running...it's appreciated more than you know....
Well, what do you know...I just happen to have one of these chips laying around in my goodie box! It's an MC6821P which I believe will work in place of the Williams 5A-8972 PIA. This should take care of the lighting issues too... It was brought to my attention that this chip sits right next to the decoder chip that's causing the display issues and the heat from the hair dryer was probably helping with the weak lighting on a cold startup....
IMG_20210306_213353 (resized).jpgQuoted from Flip-it-good:Well, what do you know...I just happen to have one of these chips laying around in my goodie box! It's an MC6821P which I believe will work in place of the Williams 5A-8972 PIA. This should take care of the lighting issues too... It was brought to my attention that this chip sits right next to the decoder chip that's causing the display issues and the heat from the hair dryer was probably helping with the weak lighting on a cold startup....
[quoted image]
IC18 could be your display issue just as much as IC6 could be it.
Not sure how IC18 (6821) would effect your lamp matrix issue unless it is corrupting the data bus or something. Can you or someone explain the thought process there?
Wow I was so close, I put the new MC6821PIA chip in, which I checked as the replacement for the original 5A8972 PIA at IC18 and checked the continuity on every single pin trace on the board and socket before I even installed the chip and now there's nothing. No boot up, no playfield lights underneath. GI lighting is fine. So I took out the new chip and reinstalled the old chip and it's doing the same thing, no boot, no feature lights.
Chip de-soldering courtesy of the 30W
Velleman VTDESOL3U Vacuum Desoldering Pump. Available at Amazon or wherever cheap imported goods are sold! Works incredibly well at this price-point.
IMG_20210307_172103 (resized).jpgIMG_20210307_174235 (resized).jpg
Quoted from Flip-it-good:The old PIA chip is now reinstalled and this is what I see on the displays. I'm pretty sure this is step one of the door diagnostics showing me what version of the game I have. MDB is up and one display only. I'm tempted to put the brand new chip back in and try again. Perhaps it wasn't seated correctly but after I installed it originally, I checked every pin leg and traced it where it was supposed to go and got 100% continuity on that board.
[quoted image]
Game showing ID and revision:
Coin Lock out mode.
Open the coin door to release the coin lockout switch then rapidly turn game on then off-on quickly to boot back into Attract mode,close door.
Fantastic! Thank you! New PIA chip re-installed. Attract mode active. Game boots and plays. I removed AA batteries during chip install. The game reverted back to factory settings as you predicted. On-Off-On power switch quickly did the trick.
While I'm waiting for the decoder chip to arrive, heres a knocker mod that was suggested to me. Apparently Williams knockers are not very loud when you drop a coin or get a free game...and I am so used to my Bally Paragon splitting my eardrums when the knocker fires!
I removed the knocker assembly from its original position, laid it on its side, installed a flipper return spring to bring the plunger back to the bottom after it fires and bought a coil that had 100 less windings. Then, mounted the bracket tight against the inside cabinet wall on top of the front cabinet support beam for the best sound resonance... It's loud!
IMG_20210307_210055 (resized).jpgIMG_20210307_210117 (resized).jpg
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Fantastic. New PIA chip re-installed. Attract mode active. Game boots and plays. Removed AA batteries during chip install. Game reverted back to factory settings as you predicted. On-Off-On power switch quickly did the trick.
While I'm waiting for the decoder chip to arrive, heres a knocker mod that was suggested to me. Apparently Williams knockers are not very loud when you drop a coin or get a free game...and I am so used to my Bally Paragon splitting my eardrums when the knocker fires!
I removed the knocker assembly from its original position, laid it on its side, installed a flipper return spring to bring the plunger back to the bottom after it fires and bought a coil that had 100 less windings. Then, mounted the bracket tight against the inside cabinet wall on top of the front cabinet support beam for the best sound resonance... It's loud!
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Holy cow that game is in great shape! I've never seen the brass parts that clean and shiny as well as the cleanliness of the cabinet.
Thanks, it was filthy when I got it. Windex, rubbing alcohol and shop rags! It really shined right up....60 hours later!
Just for fun we produced a little video to pay homage to Williams Blackout! Plus a music video near the end!....hope you enjoy it...
Update: The SN74154 decoder was not the issue. New one installed tonight. Same hundreds and thousands display digits missing. Aimed the hair dryer at the new 74154 chip and digits came up in 5 seconds!
What else is right there in that area that could be responsible for slow Fade-in digits? IC2 Rec/Out select register and IC5 Misc Gating? Then just above there's IC28 BCD output and IC29 Strobe output. I'm going to let the machine cool again and try to find a way to concentrate the warm air down to a fine tip and see if I can isolate which chip is causing this issue. Crazy! Nice clean non-socket solder job though...Everything else still functions 99%!
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Here's an oddity that I just noticed...if you flip the left flipper several times over and over fast before you even launch the ball the soundboard calls out "Mission Completed!" and plays a cool space sound. This speech/sound event is heard when completing one of the missions during game play. Only the left flipper! Nothing happens when you flip the right one multiple times fast.
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Here's an oddity that I just noticed...if you flip the left flipper several times over and over fast before you even launch the ball the soundboard calls out "Mission Completed!" and plays a cool space sound. This speech/sound event is heard when completing one of the missions during game play. Only the left flipper! Nothing happens when you flip the right one multiple times fast.
Something in the driver board is being triggered to send that out. Wiring wise it has nothing to do with the actual flipper switches, as they are not sensed by the driver or mpu board, so it has something to do with a possible power fluctuation.. flippers do draw lots of current. Try it with the solenoid/flipper fuse removed and see if it still happens.
As for the hair dryer thing, perhaps you have a cracked trace somewhere in that area, or a pad not fully connecting.. it will be very hard to see, given that heat allows it to expand enough to connect. likely more than one trace too. Continuity test may not even pick it up..
Your board does look very clean, but I do see some sort of cut/scratch in the area between the decoder chip and the diodes.. Is that anything to consider?
Also, you might want to add a little more solder to the top side of that decoder chip. Can't hurt.
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Update: The SN74154 decoder was not the issue. New one installed tonight. Same hundreds and thousands display digits missing. Aimed the hair dryer at the new 74154 chip and digits came up in 5 seconds!
What else is right there in that area that could be responsible for slow Fade-in digits? IC2 Rec/Out select register and IC5 Misc Gating? Then just above there's IC28 BCD output and IC29 Strobe output. I'm going to let the machine cool again and try to find a way to concentrate the warm air down to a fine tip and see if I can isolate which chip is causing this issue. Crazy! Nice clean non-socket solder job though...Everything else still functions 99%!
[quoted image][quoted image]
No change after replacing decoder:
Check for shorted strobe 3 & 4 signals at IJ7 Pins 5 & 6
Reflow solder around these pins.
95342809cef55bf67eec5cbf2964e84729ee489e (2) (resized).jpgNo problem, I will chase this issue to the moon and back! Going to try all of these suggestions and I appreciate the input and interest in all of my insanity! I will reflow those header pins and the soldering iron tip is a great way to concentrate heat without it blowing all over the place to try and pinpoint the defective part....if nothing else, somebody with a Blackout machine can read this thread and gather a ton of information and ideas, save a lot of time and come right to the end to figure out what to do!
Stay tuned for Part 27, coming up after these messages...!
Quoted from Flip-it-good:I'm going to replace IC29. The schematic calls for a 13 DIP 14 pin 4.7k ohm chip. It looks like a standard IC chip. But I didn't have any luck finding one online is there a cross reference number that anyone might know?[quoted image]
You might try Bourns 4114R-1-472LF
Bourns_Array (resized).jpgQuoted from rcbrown316:are there no more aftermarket boards for these?
There are-
http://pinballpcb.com/products/williams-system-3-thru-7-main-board/
https://www.pinball-technology.com/produits/nw7/
Rottendog MPU327 if you can find one.
I have used all three with no problems.
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Rochester, NY
Piershil