(Topic ID: 181212)

Williams "Big Deal" (1977) - score reels not resetting.

By Beatnik-Filmstar

2 years ago

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  • 65 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Beatnik-Filmstar
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders


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There are 65 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 2 years ago
Quoted from Chum43:

Just curious... When it try's to score 500 and you only get 2 or 300 or whatever.... Is the coil actually firing 5 times? Or does it fire just the 2 or 3?
It just sounds suspiciously like a bad coil/ plunger and it only managing to partially complete its job. If it fires 5 times and you only get 2 or 300....Maybe try watching it and see...

Assuming you mean the score reel coil - I'm not sure on that. I can definitely hear the relay click five times though. Will try to watch the score reel specifically and report back. (Too late to try it now I'm afraid)

#52 2 years ago

Sorry ..yes... Score reel coil. I just ask because alot of times it is just worn parts not performing properly. Just watch it and see if it tries to fire 5 times. If it does and still only get 2 or 3 hundred at least youll know where to look.

#53 2 years ago

Hi Beatnik, Chum43 +
I did not want to create a confusion "new problem" - "strange: "Instead of getting my 500 points all the time - I sometimes only get 400 or 300 points" --- the cause of this strange behavior is "my sneaked-in stripe of a paper - a temporary work-around so Beatnik can play a bit - not having the problem of "stuck Score-Drum / stuck 100-point-relay" ---

in this post I only write about (trying to) fix the problem "100-Point-RELAY and 100-Point-Score-DRUM stick" once a target (worth 100 point) is hit on the playfield. Look at the JPG - the 100-Point-RELAY made pulling closes a switch so current flows to "Coil on the Score-Drum - it pulls-in the (lightgreen) plunger - at end of the travel the "lightgreen" stuff moves a bit upwards so "lightgreen" hooks in behind "dark-blue" - the coil quits*** pulling so the spring pulls back (leftbound) the "lightgreen" - this makes the Score-Drum do a step.

To make the Coil quit*** pulling: Mounted on "lightgreen" is a notch (dark-green) - it travels with.
Almost "at end of travel" the "darkgreen notch" moves the standing upright blade (darkgreen) to the right - the E.O.S.-Switch opens - this cuts "current to coil on 100-point-RELAY" - the 100-point-RELAY quits pulling - therefore its switchstack moves back and so the "Switch feeding current to the Score-Drum-COIL" opens and cuts "current feeding "Coil on the Score-DRUM" -Score-Drum-Coil quits*** pulling.

Every switch beeing faulty closed can be faulty-closed because the switchblades do not separate / open - as well (bottom of JPG, encircled red) a drop of solder or some crap metal (wire) has fallen there connecting the two studs --- also: One of the shorts studs coming out of the bakelite may be heavily bent - connecting to the other stud.

We know in Your pin the "E.O.S.-Switch on Player-4-100-point-Score-Drum" is electrically good - when You sneak-in a stripe of paper for insulation to keep the switch open: Electrically the switch is open. So start working on that "E.O.S.-Switch on Player-4-100-point-Score-Drum".

Toggle-off the pin (Safety Reasons) - take this Score-Drum out and do manually move the plunger - see how "at end of travel" the (dark-green) notch on the plunger moves the (dark-green) Switchblade (?) --- and the switch must open.
It is welcome when the "brown switchblade" ALSO moves a bit to the right when the dark-green-notch moves the dark-green-switchblade to the right --- sure, in the end the switch MUST OPEN.
This little bit of "beeing moved towards the right" of the two switchblades "travelling together" makes on the contactpoints a bit of a wiping motion - the precious so called "Self-Cleaning" of the contactpoints.

It does not matter if a switch is an "Normally-Closed Switch" or if it is an "Normally-Open-Switch" --- BOTH types of switches can have the precious "Self-Cleaning" (contactpoints travelling together). I show on a RELAY, Normally-Open-Switch the "Self-Cleaning of the contactpoints": https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1965-bowl-a-strike-crazy-at-startup#post-3231326 --- the "wiping motion of the contactpoints travelling together" is shown there "encircled green".

Beatnik, I hope You can adjust this "E.O.S.-Switch on Player-4-100-point-Score-Drum" - may have to bend only one blade - You may have to bend both blades - when adjusted "good": You then must adjust on the other Score-Drums (other players).
When You have problems with adjusting (Score-Drum an 100-point-relay then stick) - the "work-around solution" is: Sneak-in AGAIN the stripe of paper into this E.O.S.-Switch.
Of course - when You work on "Player-FOUR-100-Point-Score-Drum-E.O.S.-Switch" You then must test the feature with "Player-FOUR" is playing. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Accidentally there is this going on https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-moter-keeps-on-running#post-3667697 - and so I had a look at the pin in ipdb --- http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1460&picno=18716&zoom=1

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#54 2 years ago

an "add-on" to the JPG in post-53: On the bottom of the JPG the two switchblades are shown - the left drawing is "home-position, starting point" - the drawing on right is "the "dark-green blade" is pushed towards right - and the "brown blade follows" (for the precious self-cleaning of the switch) --- not shown in the JPG - a third picture showing: The "dark-green blade is moved further to the right, the "brown blade" does no longer follow so the "dark-green blade" moves away and the switch OPENS. Greetings Rolf

#55 2 years ago

Rolf and Chum, seriously thanks again.

Tonight's mission will be to go through all of the score reels (side note - I see the allure of 1 player EMs a bit more now.) and check on the eos switches. Making sure the switch opens when the coil fires, and checking for any solder/wire that might be bridging the gap between the other ends of the switches.

Will report back later.

#56 2 years ago
Quoted from Chum43:

Sorry ..yes... Score reel coil. I just ask because alot of times it is just worn parts not performing properly. Just watch it and see if it tries to fire 5 times. If it does and still only get 2 or 3 hundred at least youll know where to look.

I was having a hard time telling while watching by eye. In comes Apple.

That's from a ball launch. Ball went through a 1000 point lane first, then hit two pops. Kind of a nice comparison. 1000 point reel advances fine, but it sure doesn't look like the plunger on the 100 point coil is pulling in.

If I'm understanding Rolf and his diagrams right - it's the plunger mechanism on the score reel coil opening the EOS switch for that reel that cuts the power to the relay?

Checked the EOS switch for the player one 100 point relay by hand and it all seems right - the plunger pulls the link arm thing which catches the next tooth on the wheel, and a bit of the arm hits the EOS switch opening it. Then again, I'm moving the plunger with my finger. Per the video - it's obviously not pulling in the plunger even enough to advance the wheel nonetheless open the switch.
If I'm understanding it right, this coil failing to open that EOS switch could be the culprit, correct?

But since this behavior is happening on all four players - it shouldn't be a problem with the score reels, but something else, correct? Also, every wheel on the machine resets properly at the start of a game when they're getting pulsed by the score motor.

As of now, with the paper in place, opening the player 4 EOS switch, the 100 point relay actuates when 100 and 500 point shots are hit, but now the 100 score reel rarely ever advances. Not for player 1, 2, or 3. Pulling the paper for player 4 caused the 100 point relay to lock on the first time a 100 point shot was made.

Am I wrong in my thinking here? Seems that there's something wrong between the 100 point relay firing and the pulse properly reaching the appropriate 100 point reel. The intermittent behavior makes me think maybe a loose wire? Any ideas?

Checking every obvious wire and solder joint I can for now.

Edit - Unless I'm missing something obvious, there doesn't look to be anything wrong with the connections at the relay. All solder joints are solid - nothing touching each other to cause shorts.
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#57 2 years ago

Very interesting. I'm perplexed that the reels try to move although weakly and I would assume bad coil but you are saying it resets at start of game correctly suggesting a good stroke on the plunger. Hmmmmm

#58 2 years ago
Quoted from Chum43:

Very interesting. I'm perplexed that the reels try to move although weakly and I would assume bad coil but you are saying it resets at start of game correctly suggesting a good stroke on the plunger. Hmmmmm

Yeah - it really doesn't make sense to my limited understanding of how these things work. Slowed down - you can see the plunger move ever so slightly, so why isn't it pulling in? I mean, if a charge hits the coil isn't kinda all or none? And yeah - bad coil, or horribly dirty sleeve, mushroomed stop, etc, but this is happening on all players, and the game resets just fine.

#59 2 years ago

If you are getting a strong reset on the reels, I guess a good place to start looking is by following the contact points for regular scoring. It is a fairly simple path. Check and clean and ensure good contact at these points.
100Pt relay Switch 1D This will send to the Player unit for the appropriate player then to the appropriate players score reel coil to step up the reel.

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#60 2 years ago

i think I would look hardest at the 100 pt relay 1 D first off. Seems to be the first point of commonality.

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#61 2 years ago
Quoted from Chum43:

i think I would look hardest at the 100 pt relay 1 D first off. Seems to be the first point of commonality.

Thanks. Really should have thought of checking that particular contact - seems a pretty good suspect. At work, but will check it out before heading out to pinball league tonight. Fingers crossed.

#62 2 years ago

I have had an older game (Williams Vagabond; but could happen on EM) have a score reel coil that was burnt enough to where it would only work sometimes when the path touched, thus debunking the whole "a coil either works or it doesn't" myth mostly. (I guess there was still no inbetween but in it's normal state it was not deemed "working") Anyhow...

Perhaps the coil is damaged internally.

A good way I like to test thing like this is to jumper (with an alligator clip) the +30V line from one score reel's coil lug to another one of a different player. This is a great way I came up with to test if something is receiving an incorrect "signal" or if it's an issue with the reel itself. I've used score reels to even test how many times a player unit was receiving a pulse, I've never heard of this being done before but it worked perfectly and is a good asset to use when troubleshooting. This way you can easily tell if it is the coil/reel or something before them that is acting up.

#63 2 years ago

Hi Beatnik +
It is a drag that the Big Deal has NO Playfield-Target / Switch worth "100 Points". OK there are some 500 points, OK when we change the settings to "conservative" the Bumpers then give 100 points --- but it is not comfortable to use Bumpers for testing on the problem "100 points (?)".

Look at the JPG - I took stuff out of the ipdb-manual. See "Switch 2A on the 100 point relay". A short wire runs from one side of the coil to this switch. It is the so called "Self-Hold-Switch of the relay. Take-out the stripe of paper - out of "End-Of-Stroke-Switch on 100-Point-Score-Drum of Player-4" and sneak-in the stripe of paper into this "Self-Hold-Switch on 100 point relay". "Stripe of paper sneaked-in there or here: NO difference - the stripe of paper hinders the 100 point relay to stick.

Start a game for four players - make it to "fourth player is playing" - then manually press the armature of the 100 point relay - and watch the 100 point Score-Drum of player-4 - and the EOS-Switch on the drum. You press the armature on the 100 point relay "long period of time": The Score-Drum-Coil pulls "long in time" (and may hum) --- You press the armature on the 100 point relay "short period of time": The Score-Drum-Coil barely pulls. Practice a bit with different "length of period of time pressing the armature on the relay" --- see (?): A "minimum length in time is needed" to actually step one step on the Score-Drum. When the Score-Drum-Coil is weak / lousy pulling: Want to wiggle a bit on the Player-Unit --- because THROUGH the Player-Unit is the connection made "RELAY to Score-Drum" - does this "wiggle a bit" makes the pulling of the Score-drum any better or any worse ?

Manually pressing the armature of the 100 point relay (and then let go) is imitating "a switch worth 100 points on the playfield is closed (and then opened again)".

In the JPG I show "slightly improved way of closing a playfield switch (worth 100 points): Have a short Jumper-Wire clipped-on at "encircled Yellow" - with the other end of the short Jumper-Wire touch onto "my red point" (on the coil or on the switch) --- this is the same as "manually pressing".

With this testing (manually pressing or using the short Jumper-Wire): You can learn about "behaviour of the Score-Drum-Coil" and You can watch its plunger traveling and You can watch the End-of-Stroke-Switch on the Score-Drum, try wiggling a bit on the Player-Unit. Greetings Rolf

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#64 2 years ago

I had to leave so will test more later, but after a cleaning and slight adjustment of the switch Chum mentioned - perfect. 100 point switches working great. 500 switches working perfect. Score reel coil fires perfect and the score relay does stay engaged. Going to run through more games and more players to see but I'm back to thinking that things are running right.

#65 2 years ago

We are at 100%. Thanks once again to all that helped. Really really appreciated. I honestly look forward to the next one.

One more back from the dead.
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(And a considerably better backglass being picked up Friday so she's not quite so homely.)

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