(Topic ID: 163564)

Williams Big Ben 2 issues, help please.


By Eddie

3 years ago



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#1 3 years ago

10pt score reel will only energize on reset not for scoring. I advance the wheel manually and the coil gets energized for reset.

The double bonus relay doesn't get energized. all switches appear to be ok.

If I hold the Double bonus relay in by hand and trigger the out hole switch the double bonus sequence works fine.

What switches should be inspected that would energize the Reel coil for counting up and for energizing the Double Bonus relay?

One note it appears that the cam shaft notches on the score motor do not seem to align with the switch fingers. Its as if the cam shaft is slightly out of synch is that possible? Can the cam rotate on its shaft causing play?

Can anyone with EM experience help me solve the 2 issues? Score reel not getting energized and Double bonus relay not getting energized.

Thanks.

#2 3 years ago

The schematic is on IPDB but it's a poor scan - very out of focus. That said, it looks like the Double Bonus relay is driven by two paths. One is via a Make-Break switch on Score Motor 3B, if I am reading it right. The second path goes through Score Motor 4B through switches on the Outhole relay and Target relay. So it might be necessary to make sure the Target relay is pulling in when it should.

During game play, the Score Reel will be driven by the 10 point relay, so check that. If you close it manually, the reel should advance. If not, check switches on the relay.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Eddie:

One note it appears that the cam shaft notches on the score motor do not seem to align with the switch fingers. Its as if the cam shaft is slightly out of synch is that possible? Can the cam rotate on its shaft causing play?

I spose you could loosen the disks on the shaft, but dont see a lot of that.
you will see some play in the shaft tho. they all can move back/forth a bit, until a switch hits a wall, then it will not move farther in that direction. you can chk the armature on the motor, it shud move in/out with power on/off, it has a clutch that stops it upon power off.
if the shaft is gummed up, it may not release correctly, and that means switches and notches may not line up right.
make sure the motor is working right, or you cannot rely on things working correctly.

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

The second path goes through Score Motor 4B through switches on the Outhole relay and Target relay. So it might be necessary to make sure the Target relay is pulling in when it should.
During game

The 10 point relay if its the one on the far left in the back box ..Going by memory is always energized . Its activated I think by the 50 pt switches on the playfield. THe score motor turns the correct number of times when any 50 point switch is pressed but the 10pt reel coil never gets the power inputs. I don't think there are actual 10 points in the game the smallest number being 50pts. As I mentioned in the original post the 10pt reel coil does get energized for the reset which I guess is on a different circuit. I had the machine set up for just about an hour so not too familiar with it. I do know that dropping the 3 red targets is supposed to initiate the double bonus. The target switches are clean and adjusted perfectly and they reset perfectly nice clean and fast.

I won't have access to the machine until the weekend however I believe that the target relay never energized either now that you brought it up.

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

I spose you could loosen the disks on the shaft, but dont see a lot of that.
you will see some play in the shaft tho. they all can move back/forth a bit, until a switch hits a wall, then it will not move farther in that direction. you can chk the armature on the motor, it shud move in/out with power on/off, it has a clutch that stops it upon power off.
if the shaft is gummed up, it may not release correctly, and that means switches and notches may not line up right.
make sure the motor is working right, or you cannot rely on things working correctly.

Nothing appears to be binding and I cleaned the Nylon cams/discs ( being sure not to touch the switch stacks) Ill take pics over the weekend of how one stack is about a 32nd of an inch from dropping into its cam notch. HTe cams do seem to have some slight rotational play on the shaft maybe thats normal?

#5 3 years ago

shaft play is normal, however, switches not lining up with the notches, is not. look into that some more.
is there a bank of re setable relays under the playfield? the bonus will not engage until everything before it is collected.
so, if there are relays wired in series on a bank, then all the relays before the bonus must be dropped, or no bonus lites.

Quoted from Eddie:The 10 point relay if its the one on the far left in the back box ..Going by memory is always energized

not good, fix that. chk all the 10, and 50 point playfield switches.
if the 10 point relay is locked on, nuthin will score 10, or 50. and, it will burn up if left on too long.
you gotta fix that before you can start lookin at the bonus.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

not good, fix that. chk all the 10, and 50 point playfield switches.
if the 10 point relay is locked on, nuthin will score 10, or 50. and, it will burn up if left on too long.
you gotta fix that before you can start lookin at the bonus.

I had triple checked all of the related playfeild switches related to the score reel and all are in perfect condition, clean, gapped well,
Not bent in any way they look almost new. When any 50 pt switch is pressed it starts the score motor sequence of rotating 5 times as it should only the 10pt score reel doesn't know its supposed to rotate too LOL

I guess the 3rd problem is now the locked on 10 points relay.

#7 3 years ago

I forgot until I saw a pic of the playfeild that the (Score 1000 when lit) also stopped working when the Double Bonus feature quit.

#8 3 years ago

ok, if its not a playfield switch, try manually closing the EOS switch on the 10 point reel, it has to cancel the relay.

#9 3 years ago

There's almost CERTAINLY 10 point switches on this game - probably rubber switches. Literally every EM game has them (or 1 point switches on a 4 digit game) I would suspect the fresh rubber is closing one of those switches. Find that issue and fix it and it will probably fix the 50 point issue as well.

Double bonus - like you don't have one of these games in front of me right now but go through everything that is supposed to activate the double bonus relay. Probably the BIG or BEN targets. Each one of those letters (switches) will activate a relay - go through all the switches in each of those relay banks and make sure they are cleaned and adjusted properly.

#10 3 years ago

Hi Eddie - want to look up in the ipdb-manual: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/232/Williams_1975_Big_Ben_Manual.pdf - last page for 10-Point-Relay, page-25 and page-23 for Double-Bonus-Relay and Target-Relay (?) Greetings Rolf

#11 3 years ago

Thanks guys Ill have access to the machine on Fri eve. The big and the Ben Target switches are all in perfect shape when the targets are dropped they do not energize any relay except for the reset relay that sets them back up.

No switches are closed by rings. I checked for that early on, there is plenty of gap between rings and switches.

I have looked at the manual a few days ago but didn't have time to really go through it.

#12 3 years ago

So I had about 1 hr to look at the machine last night as I had to finish up a clients AF shop job.

It turns out that the 10 point reel had a broken coil stop. I rebuilt the Reel assembly and installed a new coil stop.

I then Went over the 10 pt reel relay very carefully and had to adjust one switch. It was cleaned and was making contact but it wasn't making strong contact. Once it was adjusted to make the connection strong the 10 pt score reel works perfectly along with its associated chime.

Yes there are ten points in the game but they become 50 or 1000 when the rollover switch is lit!

Now the only feature not working is the advance bonus relay is not getting energized. If the relay is held in manually the entire advance bonus sequence works perfectly so its just a matter of getting that relay energized.

#13 3 years ago

Just took a vid of the issue. Please don't mock the presentation I can't speak off of the cuff very well.

#14 3 years ago

Bump any Em techs have any clues as to what should energize the double Bonus Relay? Is there a way to test power to the coil as can be done with a solid state machine. IE grounding the coil to the side rail? I cant seem to find anything in the machine that will energize the relay coil that is in the circuit to do so.

What would be a continuity to a power source? I admit Im not that fluent in EM schematics.

#15 3 years ago

Hi Eddie
I am not familiar with SS-Pins. I refer to: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/232/Williams_1975_Big_Ben_Manual.pdf --- on page-1 they say "making the Drop-Target "B" and the Drop-Target "E" and the Drop-Target "N": Double Bonus will be lit" and they say "making these Drop-Targets a second time: Extraball will be lit".
On page-25 (ori-24) "Double Bonus Relay will be activated through a "Switch on pulling Target-Relay and Score-Motor-Switch-4B".
On page-23 (ori-22) "Target-Relay will be energized through "Target-'B'-Switch, 'E' and 'N'.

In the ipdb-schema, http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/232/Williams_1975_Big_Ben_Schematic_Diagram_paginated.pdf on page-4 I see: Double-Bonus-Relay is shown at E-13, Target-Relay on E-11.
At E-11 and surrounding I believe to see: Sitting in a line (daisy-chained ?) are these 3 Target-Switches to activate the Target-Relay (Initial-Power) --- then the Target-Relay establishes "Self-Hold-Current and stays pulled.

Want to try: When You would like to get Double-Bonus: press by hand the armature / anchor-plate of "Target-Relay" - what happens ? You might have to do the pressing when the Score-Motor is running for some reason --- at +/- E-13 I see Score-Motor-Switch-4B that must close for to activate the Double-Bonus-Relay. Want to try: When You would like to get Double-Bonus: press by hand the armature / anchor-plate of "Double-Bonus-Relay" - what happens ?

Yes, in an EM-Pin we can use Jumper-Wires - do You have some ? Greetings Rolf

#16 3 years ago

There must be something in the middle of that line to hold in the double bonus relay. You may notice that when you press the double bonus relay in it will immediately release when you let go as it is not a latching relay that can lock on itself, and it is designed to obviously stay on and stay pulled in until the bonus is drained and up until that point while you play the game to activate the feature and the corresponding lights. Are there target relays for each bumper that also lock in? They could be what completes the constant 30v path to lock on this relay. Something else needs to lock on to make this stay pulled in because if it was only pulsed it would light up for a second and then go off again because it's not designed to hold itself in like some other relays are. Something else must lock on to hold this in too, I'm guessing each of those targets/bumpers has a relay too that locks on which is also how it would preserve which bumpers were hit to light that bonus while it waits, kind of like "memory" except they just lock until you drain, either with or without the sequence finished, with or without reward, and each one has a switch that are wired together to complete power to the double bonus relay I would assume. Each of those switches need to be clean, free of grime, and gapped correctly for this to work.

You can test the coil by hooking one end to a jumper wire with an alligator clip and touching the other end to the solenoid power output on the transformer, or I've also done it from the 30v hold relay. Alternatively, you could do it where the fuses are located too and this would probably be easiest. I think your ground would already be set up for you so you don't need to worry about it.

#17 3 years ago

Hi Eddie, Otaku
in http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/232/Williams_1975_Big_Ben_Schematic_Diagram_paginated.pdf - page-4 around E-13 I see an "Self-Hold-Switch on Double-Bonus-Relay". And I see a wire to a "Make-and-Brake-Switch (to open) on Outhole-Relay once the ball is lost". Greetings Rolf

#18 3 years ago

Guys thx for the info

You can see in the video that I posted the double bonus relay does not get energized and hold in when I manually press it in.

It is not getting power. I am reading 28v on the switch with the double Yellow wires but no voltage on any other switch.

I can see that all of the other relays have two sources of voltage.The daisy chained double yellow wires and another always closed switch with a unique to that switch colored wire.

I assume the always closed switches with the 28v are the ones used to energize the relays in the first place but I could be totally wrong.

I have tried to trace all of the switch wires trying to find 28v on the Double Bonus Relay and only the double Yellow wired switch gets any power.

I went through every switch on the score motor and still couldn't find 28v that should go to the Double Bonus relay.

I have continuity on all switch wires related to the DB Relay going to the score motor.

THe relay coil reads the same OHMs as the working relay coils.

The drop target BEN switches are in plane sight they are clean and gapped properly.

You can see that they work great in the above video.

There must be some voltage going to the relay coil to energize it but I can't seem to find it.

As I just wrote the only wires in the DB relay switch stack that get 28v are the double Yellow wires on the one switch.

Pic of the pesky relay below.

13645220_10208098434232859_1131891956080616668_n_(resized).jpg

#19 3 years ago

Hi Eddie
there are some topics on using Jumper-Wires, example: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/using-schematics-and-8-foot-jumper-wires

The JPG here I made from ipdb-schema "Williams Space Mission". Lets say the 10 cent relay does not fire. Maybe there is a fault-A in the connection "Power-Side" (a wire has broken-off somewhere) --- but there is also a fault-B in the connection "Returning-Side back to transformer" (a switch does faulty not close).
If I do jumpering on the Power-Side-Connection: fault-B hinders the relay to fire.
I then may say "OK - I try the other side" - I do jumpering (only) on the Returning-Side: fault-A hinders the relay to fire - thats why I have written in "blue": Set a Jumper on the Power-Side and leave it there (IMPORTANT: When the schema shows permanent connection !!!).

The schema http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/232/Williams_1975_Big_Ben_Schematic_Diagram_paginated.pdf on page-1 tells us: "Good side of '24 Volt-15-Amp-Fuse' to use has soldered-on: Wire-Black"
It also tells us "Good side on Transformer-Returning-Side has soldered-on: Wire-Yellow" (actually there are TWO Wire-Yellow soldered-on).

I look at Your picture (post-18) - the pesky Double-Bonus-Relay --- on top of the picture I see a bare / naked wire. Follow in Your pin this bare wire --- You will come to the coil of another relay and there is soldered-on: Wire-Red. I look in the schema on page-4 and see: Wire-Red, then Switch on Tilt-Relay, then Wire-Red-Yellow-White, then Switch on Reset-Relay, then Wire-Blue-Yellow-White, then Switch on Game-Over-Relay, THEN Wire-Black.

I prepare the "Jumpering the Power-Side": I unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons), I clip-on a Jumper-Wire at the Coil on Duble-Bonus-Relay, side "Bare-Wire is soldered-on". I run the Jumper-Wire NEAR the socket on the 24-Volt-15-Amp-Fuse - and lay the Jumper-Wire-Gator-Clip NEAR the socket (NOT touching a thing).

I plug-in, toggle-on, start a game, after the pin has resetted: I clip-on the Gator-Clip at Fuse-Holder-Socket "Wire-Black is soldered-on". I then make some points - I then press the armature / anchor-plate on Double-Bonus-Relay and let go - question: Does the relay keeps-on pulling ?
IF (if) "No": (I let that first Jumper-Wire as is) - I take another Jumper-Wire and clip-on at the "Coil on Double-Bonus-Relay, the other side (NOT: bare-wire-side). With the other end of this Jumper-Wire I touch "transformer-Lug-Yellow - question: Does the relay fires ?
If "No": Coil is bad. If "Yes": Want to try (?): Take away the first Jumper-Wire and do the test ONLY using the second Jumper-Wire - question: Does the relay (still) fires ? If "Yes": No need to use first Jumper-Wire anymore. If "No": At least one fault to fix on "power-Side-Connection".

Look at the JPG --- You have done "blue jumpering" and "burgundy-red-violet '1S' jumpering".
Please write about the results of Your tests. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Sometimes I use Jumper-Wires (I want to see "action" on relays / stepper-units) --- sometimes I use a test-light (I want to find out "is there power in between point-A and point-B"). Here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics --- SteveFury shows in post-12 his "Test-Light" (good for Williams and Gottlieb pins as they run on 24 VAC).

00SpMi-Jumpering_(resized).jpg

#20 3 years ago

rolf First thank you for the amount of time you used to provide the detailed steps in jumping the coil.

I wont have access to the machine until Sat and will have to re- read and go over what you posted numerous times so that I get it all sorted out in my small head.

The pic I just posted is from the IPDB it shows the Double bonus relay (2nd from left) and the adjacent relays that are daisy chained with the common wire. All of those working relays have at least 2 switches that read 28v the Double Bonus relay only has one switch that has a 28v reading.

1_(resized).jpg

#21 3 years ago

Hi Eddie
no problem with "no access till saturday". In the meantime we can look at "theory of how to test".
Do not do it - here is what You could do:

You ask Yourself "is the coil on the relay 'good' " - (when hooked-up) does current flow and the coil produces magnetism and so the armature is pulled --- when current is cut: Does the relay "let go" and the armature moves back ? In short: Is the relay functioning ?
You have a workbench and there is a transformer with an "SECURED by a 15 Amp FUSE) 24-VAC Outlet".
You unsolder every wire from the relay and unscrew the relay and take the relay out and place it on the workbench.
You make connection both sides of transformer-outlet to both sides of "Coil on relay". Question: Does the coil fires and the relay pulls ?
IF (if) "Yes": Coil is good - You have one or more faults in the wiring in the pin.
IF (if) "No": Look if one of the thin wires wound around the coil has broken-off a solder-lug - maybe You can resolder - maybe You have to buy a new coil.

This way of "testing the functionality of the relay" means a lot of work (unsoldering wires etc.)
So I want You to do the basic test "does the relay work ?" IN THE PIN. THERE sits a transformer with an "SECURED by a 15 Amp FUSE) 24-VAC Outlet". THERE sits the relay. OK - wires are soldered-on BUT I want You to do a NEW wiring (as we want to test the functionality of the relay).

Post-19, starting with "I prepare the jumpering on the Power-Side" and ending with "Greetings Rolf": This is the "workbench-test" without the workbench.

We could spend hours on testing switches and connecting wires in the pin --- IF (if) the Coil is DEAD: We would not get results.
First I want to know: Is the coil good - does the relay work ? Greetings Rolf

#22 3 years ago

In this pic the wire going to the non common lug of the coil is on the first switch blade on the far left. You can see its a NO switch, Not seen but there is a green wire soldered along with the large white wire on the same switch blade. Only the white wire goes to the lug directly from the switch.

Is this green wire the wire that I am supposed to be getting the 28v the hold power? If so I can't seem to trace the chain as to where it gets the power from. Can anyone from the schematics tell me what are the exact switches I should be looking at and which score motor cams and switches? Its seems like a simple circuit but I am lost in trying to read the schematics

I would think the coil is good as the ohms read the same as the other relay coils.

Cant I simply jump the non common lug to the Double Yellow wired switch blade as that has 28v to energize it for a test?

14_(resized).jpg

#23 3 years ago

Hi Eddie
the last sentence in Your post-22 "can't I simply jumper" - IF You ask (look at the JPG): Can I make a connection "yellow-pink 'C' " to "pink-yellow 'B' " --- and the Double-Bonus-Relay should fire ? IF this is Your question then the answer is "Yes".

Williams "Z-28-1150-Coils" are built to "stay pulled for several minutes". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: In earlier posts I suggested: First do Jumper "E to D" then (second) do jumper "B to A". In the schema and in the pin there is a permanent connection "A to C" so You can use either "A" or "C" --- it does not matter what jumpering (which side) You do first.

0pinside-Big-Ben-DB-Relay_(resized).jpg

#24 3 years ago

Hi pinsiders
please help. I am ( Swiss- ) German speaking and I do not know the correct english words. I show a JPG - transformer and wiring from Gottlieb Surf Champ. Also Bally Rockmakers. I plastered "letters / alphabetic characters" all over the JPG.
My main question is: The "correct / proper / right" words for my letters "A", "B, "C" are ?

In Switzerland we use for "Alternate Current of any Voltage":
"A" is "Phase"
"B" is "Erdung"
"C" is "Null-Leiter" or "Neutral-Leiter"

In Germany they use
"A" is "Aussen-Leiter"
"B" is "Schutz-Leiter"
"C" is "Neutral-Leiter" or "Mittel-Leiter", the german wikipedia claims: "In English they say Line Conductor"

What are the words in English ? Do You use some words when talking about 110 VAC-wiring - use other words when talking about 24 VAC-wiring ?

I am irritated - "Line Cord" is used at "U" - but also used at "K".
I am irritated - Williams uses the words "grounded wipers" at "T" - I believe this means 'connected to "H" / "I" ' and I believe this is what Bally calls "Common" at "R".
I am irritated - HOW can Bally write at "O": "One side of Line-Cord on Lug-5" - I believe they should write "what" side of the Line-Cord. Why do they draw a connection to Lug-9 ? instead of "to Lug-7 ?

Please help and write "A" is ..., "B" is ..., "C" is ... --- "Common" means ..., "Grounded" means ...
(maybe write more about my "letters A, B, C ..." (?)). Greetings Rolf

0pinside-Big-Ben-Words_(resized).jpg

#25 2 years ago

As luck would have it I was swamped with taking in and sending out clients machines and had no time to have a look at Big Ben.

I will have to wait until next Fri before I can implement the suggestions on the issue that were offered here.

1 week later
#26 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Eddie
the last sentence in Your post-22 "can't I simply jumper" - IF You ask (look at the JPG): Can I make a connection "yellow-pink 'C' " to "pink-yellow 'B' " --- and the Double-Bonus-Relay should fire ? IF this is Your question then the answer is "Yes".
Williams "Z-28-1150-Coils" are built to "stay pulled for several minutes". Greetings Rolf
P.S.: In earlier posts I suggested: First do Jumper "E to D" then (second) do jumper "B to A". In the schema and in the pin there is a permanent connection "A to C" so You can use either "A" or "C" --- it does not matter what jumpering (which side) You do first.

Same as a last week no time to really dig into the issue.

I did however have time for a quick Double Bonus coil test with a jumper from C to B and the coil energized just fine.

So the coil is good, as I had thought with the OHMS test from the start.

So back to square one why won't it get energized when the three targets are dropped?

The circuit can't be that complex or can it?

#27 2 years ago

A broken wire, so called "cold solder"lug.
At first it looks like the lines are intact, when you pull it one of them will become lose, that one caused the problem.
It is a common problem with Williams machines.

Won't say that that is the problem, could be...

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from wizardblom:

A broken wire, so called "cold solder"lug.
At first it looks like the lines are intact, when you pull it one of them will become lose, that one caused the problem.
It is a common problem with Williams machines.
Won't say that that is the problem, could be...

Yes I have been thinking it may be a broken wire in the insulation only I can't seem to trace the G/W wire on the switch without having to cut the harness ties . THe lugs all appears to be fine they have been cleaned and the switch blades them selves have continuity I checked in case one of the blades may have been broken in a stack.

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