(Topic ID: 132508)

Williams Ball Bowler score issue

By Bill123

6 years ago


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  • 39 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Tazmans
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    #1 6 years ago

    I am having problems with the scoring on my Williams Oasis ball bowler. I purchased the schematic and I have traced out all the things it is trying to tell me and nothing seams to work (I'm really not too good at reading these). During the frame after a strike or spare the machine starts scoring and just doesn't stop it just keeps adding points until I manually trip the strike spare reset relay, then it stops scoring and the reset bank resets and the game continues until I have a strike or spare and it goes back to not wanting to stop scoring. The odd thing is when I play any of the other games (flash, pyramid, dual flash, strikes 90) it plays perfectly, it's only on regulation.... I have reflowed the solder joints on almost all the coils (they all ohm out ok, and also all the switches on the reset bank. I'm at a loss and have to clue where to turn next. It seams like it's a timing issue, but the score motor shaft has a locating flat on both sides so I'm sure that the wiper fingers and cam are in the correct place.Like I said I'm about ready to move on I've spent too many hours checking and rechecking wires, switches and steppers..(I guess that's why I call it a hobby....If I had to make a living at this I'd starve!!!).... Also the schematic doesn't show any diagrams of the score motor so I have no clue which set of switches on the cam are.
    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Bill

    #2 6 years ago

    If the strike keeps scoring, then it is not canceling.

    Quoted from Bill123:until I manually trip the strike spare reset relay, then it stops scoring

    there is a all pins down relay that holds till scoring is complete. chk the schematic for that relay, and follow the lines to the reset relay. there may be a switch not opening to release the hold. the reset signal shud come from the score motor. find that relay on the schematic and follow it to the score motor.
    one or more of these relays is prob located in a long relay bank. they are hard to adjust correctly. and need to be lined up well.
    if you are opening the bed to adjust, then closing it leaves the long bank at a different position. go through all the relays on the bank manually, and see that they move well. and chk the bank reset bar, if the spring is weak, or if the bar rests on the relay plates, it cud hold a switch from closing correctly.

    #3 6 years ago

    Thank you for the reply I really appreciate it! My machine is a 1965 model and the controls are mounted on the back door not under the bed. I do not have a "all pins down relay" But it does have 3 separate 1 - 10 no coil relays located in the long relay bank. Are these the same as the all pins down relay? I've been through all these switches and they all seam to operate correctly but I will go through them again. My biggest fear is someone before me moved some wires or I have a broken wire somewhere causing this. Again thank you for the help!

    #4 6 years ago

    Can you post a pic of the schematic? that would be helpful. And a couple close up pics of the works in the door.
    There is always a possibility of a prior hack on a game, just have to work through it.
    3 no coil relays labeled 1-10? they may be related to the 10th frame strikes, "you get 3 if you get them all".
    Do all the step units work ok manually? i'm thinkin maybe one is not resetting completely, and may be the cause.
    When you switch between games, one step passes signals to the others.

    #5 6 years ago

    another thot, have you gone through all the switches under the pin hood?

    #6 6 years ago

    Yes I did go through the switches under the hood for all the pins. I hope these are the pictures you are wanting to see. I think the 1-10 no coil switches drop down when all the pins trip (strike / spare) then when the bank resets they are reset. All the steppers are nice and clean and free. I've done quite a few pinballs and use the systematic method of cleaning all the steppers, switches, score reels,,,,,,, and I've never had this much problems. Maybe I should have stuck to the pins

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    #7 6 years ago

    Yeah, these bowlers are fun...to play, not so much to work out bugs. I can see partial step units in the pics, can you post a couple of slightly overlapping pics of whats to the left of the score motor pic. i will compare it to my 63 schematic this weekend.
    to clarify you said after a strike or spare, score is added correctly, next frame is setup, and after next shot, things go hay wire?
    or does it freak while still in the strike or spare frame?

    #8 6 years ago

    I will take some more pictures tonight and......... yes............ "after a strike or spare, score is added correctly, next frame is setup, and after next shot, things go hay wire?" ...................................Everything is OK in the strike or spare frame

    #9 6 years ago

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    #10 6 years ago

    Wow, never seen one of those before. That's a crazy amount of steppers and relays.

    #11 6 years ago

    I looked over my schematic this weekend, and I think you will have to have some one play for you while you watch the relays in back.
    First, is the shoot again lite staying on during the over run?
    I suspect one of several relays is not releasing after the strike/spare score tally. "or a switch is not opening/closing to release something.
    Watch for the 1-10, puck, 1st and 2nd shot,extra shots, and the score relay to cycle in "Blow" frames,where not all pins are made.
    then, watch as a spare or strike is made. these relays should cycle the same way for each type of frame.
    Also, watch the function during a different type of game and compare your findings.
    Your machine is more complicated than mine is. so I don't have all the extra stuff yours has.
    You will have to watch it till you get the feel of what is, and is not happinin during each type of frame to find your bug.
    When you find something, put a meter on it, and watch the function. then follow your schematic to the source.

    2 weeks later
    #12 6 years ago

    I guess I can add to this since I own this bowler now. Bill did a great job painting the machine btw the green has also grown on me. I have gown through all units and switches. All plugs have been fully cleaned and shine. It will not play any games ( how it was when I got it) and I have come to the conclusion it's the transformer that is the issue. While I know this is rare it did meter with lots of different and jumping readings and finally gave up the ghost during testing. Should be getting a new unit soon and hoping she fires up and why the switches did not have correct power to energize coils in relay bank. Your strikes not scoring correct when it was working was very dirty game Wheel and strike spare steper.

    #13 6 years ago

    Well transformer didn't fix the one issue I have left, but does now provide stable V. The common on the original is a touch flakes.

    Anyone have any insight would be greatly apreciated. Everything can be manually tripped and works score properly ect. The back row and gutter switches work and have power. They will count ball 1 and ball 2. None of the pin switches have power. I have pined out the switches to junction and then to reset bank. So this has to be where the coil power is received in reset bank. It is also missing power for a b c reset coils. Any help would be greatly apreciated. I have jumped power from rear switches to pin switches and pins register / retract but rear switch power is not cut during reset so pins will retract on reset. The very first two switches also seem independent of all other pin switches. That is as far as I have gotten with my limited EM knowledge.

    #14 6 years ago

    Hi jszucs. So I guess you bought the machine from Bill? cool.
    A new transformer has been installed?...correctly I assume?
    I have slept since the first posts. you mention the a b c reset coils have no power? so I assume the reels do not reset to "0" at start?
    If I remember right, "and chk the schems to varify". The reset coils get power from the score motor. and are pulsed to reset the reels.
    The pin switches shud have a hot line to them, which supply power "when closed" to the relay bank coils via a set of switches on each of the coils. There shud be a game over relay, i believe that supplys power to the switches.
    You mentioned you found the game and strike/spare steps dirty?
    Have you gone through the rest of them?...you should...
    Do not assume anything with these bowlers. each part either acts on things, or passes signal to other steps, so all of them need to be in the correct position at the right time, or nada.
    if the pins retract on reset, there must be a stuck switch somewhere. follow the reset motor line back to its source.

    #15 6 years ago

    Sorry the transformer didn't help. When I read you post I thought that makes sense I never checked it because I read somewhere that it's rare that they fail. I'm still wondering if someone before me didn't move a wire or a few wires or have a broken wire that is not visible. That's where I got frustrated because I don't have a clue how to trace them even with the schematic. As you can see I did re flow the solder joints thinking there was a cold joint . I did that one at a time being careful not to move them. Keep at it you'll figure it out and it will be worth it in the end.

    #16 6 years ago

    Bill, yes to everything you said, it is always hard to follow someone's tinkering.
    Transformers ARE pretty tough, and seldom go out, but its an electrical component, and anything is possible.
    It is difficult to trace connections in EM's, you get continuity through every coil.
    The best way to shoot bugs is to hot test with clip leads. AFTER you eliminate shorts the best you can so you don't keep blowin fuses.
    I start with a clip lead on the EXIT side of the coil fuse, and jump to the first location. based on the schematic. then, from that point, move the clip from the fuse, to the next location, based on the schematic. kind of a leap frog thing.
    This is also a good way to test any non 120 volt coil for go/no go operation.
    Testing the return side, is a bit more tricky...

    #17 6 years ago

    Thanks for the replies Dr and Bill. So yes transformer in correctly. And I fully took apart every stepper and cleaned everything. Think I have figured it out. I assume the fingers on the score motor that contacts the rivets should all be paired and the very outside one is not. This is what the reset coils would see as there path to ground. Bill did you ever find a finger in the cab / back box when working on it after it quit working? Pretty sure if I'm following stuff correctly this is also where the lane / pin switches also would see there ground from too.

    Anyone have any pics of a 1965 United score motor?

    #18 6 years ago

    I believe that a switch that is supposed to open when one notch or index tab hits it per cycle is not opening due to mis-adjustment or loose screws on the switch stack.

    #19 6 years ago

    Switches for both cams ? I think there called are good. Sorry brand new to EM don't have all the terms down in my self learned EM on a puck bowler. I believe finger/wiper? is missing because all other ones show continuity to another wiper about 180 out and the rivets the wiper missing a pair falls on happens to pin out to the resets not working and I believe the power or ground line for the lane switches / pin retract that is also not working.

    #20 6 years ago

    No I didn't find a broken finger not to say that it could have broken a long time ago. I hope somebody has a picture for you. You might try asking Mickey for a picture.

    #21 6 years ago

    Hmm well again I'm no pro at this so I'm not 100% I'm correct on this but it makes sense the wiper / finger would have to have continuity to something to work or there is no purpose for it. Going to see if I can pin out a pattern with the rivets the unpaired one lands on and 180 out of it so I can guestemate the length.

    #22 6 years ago

    There very well may be a finger missing. However, the single finger may be tied to the hub. Is there a wire connected to the metal base?
    If you remove the spider, you can chk for continuity from the finger to the hub.
    Each score motor is different for each game. I just bought a nos motor, and the motor,gear box is the same, but the score disk is different.
    This is how you differentiate between games. some are basic, less contacts. and others have more features, so, more contacts.
    Can you take a pic of your disk with and without the spider?

    #23 6 years ago

    I had a similar problem with my 1958 United Big Ball Bowler, on the score motor where the rivets go through the board they where cracked across on about 90% of them. Rather than take it out and redo it I moved all the wires from the bottom tab to the top and it has been running like a clock for the last two years with no issues. You can see what I have circled in the picture and an arrow to one of the more obvious breaks in continuity.

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    #24 6 years ago

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    Here is with and without the spider.

    I was able to make a warehouse visit and view some bowler examples. I did find score disks with Unpaired fingers and one I believe to be exact match to mine. Yes the unpaired finger is connected to the hub no wire just directly touching metal of hub. But the hub is not connected to anything as far as I can tell. Should it be? It connects to the shaft and both metal cams on the other side. The switches ride the metal cams on metal rollers but there is no connection and fish paper between the metal riding the cams.

    Do you think I should remove disk and rework? When I tested between coil trigger to wires and rivets on disk I had continuity. That is what started me looking at the unpaired finger as that is the finger that falls on the ground / trigger for the reset coils not working.

    #25 6 years ago

    Just checked all edge wire to wires from the disk and have continuity on all of them. Will check all wires to rivets next maybe a cold joint to a rivet?

    Thanks again everyone very new to EM learning lots and already brought a shuffle bowler back to life.

    #26 6 years ago

    Hi jszucs
    A couple things.
    First, the ground shud be provided by a wire screwed to the metal frame the motor is mounted on. "if it has one". it shud.
    There is no reason to tie a line to a hub, if you are not going anywhere with it. The wire may be floating around somewhere near by.
    Second, I see 2 rivits missing on your board, why? look on the back side and see if they were wired or not.
    It bothers me to see that, as the finger will gouge a groove in the disk.
    chk your schematic for the path from the reset coils to the transformer hot and return. if all you are missing is ground, or to be correct, "return", then try putting a clip lead from the transformer RETURN tab to the metal frame the motor is mounted to.
    But chk that schematic first. closely!

    #27 6 years ago

    Dr. Thanks I was thinking about jumpering ground to the frame. The frame is isolated on rubber grommets to the back door and though maybe it used motor ground as return but even to me that seems like a bad idea. It is missing a nut on one mount and that could have easily been where it mounted.

    Don't flame me on this one. So I know ground and common are different but the same. As far as I can tell there is no true what I would call a ground in this machine. And I know stock would have had only a 2 prong plug. So when you say jumper from frame to return would that be frame to common? Or should I be going elsewhere?

    #28 6 years ago

    And omg I feel so stupid for not even noticing the open holes. That is a good bet. If this is it your my hero. I want to leave work to go try / check this. It seems very probable since at reset position the finger is right between the holes.

    #29 6 years ago

    Now I am lookin at that card and seein the contacts do not line up.
    If not, you will have to align the fingers with the correct rivet also.
    The finger shud be on top of just one rivet, not between

    #30 6 years ago

    Could have been slightly misaligned due to taking off for pics requested

    #31 6 years ago

    Well so much for my excitement and hope. The holes look to have been open always. There are also no markings next to them and all populated holes have a letter number next to them. Waiting on answer of what I should ground frame to.

    #32 6 years ago

    Ok, back from outer space...
    The ground, is not really ground... in an A.C. circuit, it is referred to as the RETURN. If you look on the schematic, you will see the transformer output lines are COILS, LITES, and NUETRAL, or return.
    The coil "HOT" line is probably black with a voltage next to it. The return is probably white. The return is the one you are looking for.
    Chk the schematic, and follow the signal to and from the reset relays. Determine if the line is HOT to the coil. or HOT to the score motor.
    Anyway, if the hub is supposed to be connected to "ground", then place a clip lead on the RETURN lug of the transformer, and the other end on the metal bracket that the score motor is mounted to.
    One of 3 things should happen. 1-nothing. 2-it starts working. 3-you blow the coil fuse.
    if nothing happens, cycle the motor and see if you get the reset to work.

    #33 6 years ago

    Here it is, My Clipper bowler is prob close to yours so...
    Start relay closes and provides power "BLACK", through player 1&2, player 3&4, player 5&6 SU reset relay coils, then to "Score Motor" to YELLOW, "RETURN".
    Score motor pulses 10 times to ground. to reset reels to "0".
    Player 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 player reset relay contacts close and provide power to REEL COILS through reel "0" position switch

    #34 6 years ago

    OK so after the good Dr. Got me educated on ground / return in an ac machine. I hooked up the score motor chassy to return and on credit / game start my a b c reset coils fired till all players and frame wheels were at 0. Progress! I'm re invigorated to work on it again. Thank you thank you thank you to all of you. Soon as lane switches for pins are figured out I'm in business.

    1 week later
    #35 6 years ago

    I have great news. I bowled my first game on the bowler. It's not 100% perfect and I'm not totally sure what I'm bypassing jumpering stuff around. But it's no worse then the first 30 or so games on the puck bowler I learned on / fixed.

    Thank you all for your input and encouragement! For sure would not have been brave enough to try some of the testing I did without you all. And would still be looking for ground to test with not the return.

    1 month later
    #36 6 years ago

    After a few months making no progress I have finally got the bowler working without jumpering power around. Have to rebuild frame stepper and replace a switch on scoring relay (I think) have one pin that is being flaky about retracting (guessing adjustment in pin hood) and I should be totally working / non rigged.

    #37 6 years ago

    Congrats on the fix jszucs! glad to hear your bowlin!
    Think of us when you bowl your first BEER FRAME !!!

    #38 6 years ago

    Great news I'm sure you will enjoy it for a long time!!

    #39 6 years ago

    Keep the bowlers alive!!!! Congrats, I'm working on getting mine 100% also..

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