Have you checked the alternator switch on the match unit?

Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting the schematic..

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Hi Max, bonzo
The "No. Match Alt. Switch" TEXT belongs to the switch BELOW (in the circuitry). Here is the snippet of schematics - text to come, greetings Rolf

0Aztec-Work-10 (resized).jpg

Rolf is correct. Sorry for any confusion..

Hi Max
some theory - the manufacturers WANT the "information light" "Hey, You made an Extraball" STAY for a long time - UNTIL that extraball is launched. Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2408&picno=22602 in the shooter alley You see a wire-form- Roll-Over-goodie*** - the easiest way to turn-off the "information light Extraball": THIS goodie does open a switch when the ball rolls over it - in Your Aztec the "turn-off" is made another way.

Bally and Williams are generous - a new ball is given - You launch the ball - it enters the playfield - You loose the ball NOT making a point on the Score-Drum --- SAME ball is given (NO stepping to next player / next ball). Gottlieb is not so generous - this ONLY works in "FIRST Player, FIRST Ball". Bally and Williams make this using the Ball-Index-Relay. Your Aztec is special - on Your Aztec You launch a ball - You MAKE some points. BUT THE FEATURE is there in the pin --- please try: Start a new game ... ball is kicked over into the shooter alley - NOW YOU take the ball and place the ball on the Outhole and let drain the ball --- question: DOES Your pin gives the SAME ball to the shooter alley ?

You launch the ball and You make some points - look at the Ball-Index-Relay in the cabinet - question: Does it pull-in and stay pulling ?
Important: You play a bit and the loose the ball - the pin counts down the bonus and changes to next ball, kicks the ball out AND MAKES THE BALL-INDEX-RELAY QUIT pulling --- HOW about in YOUR pin ? DOES the Ball-Index-Relay really QUITS pulling ? IF (if) "STAYS pulling": Please report - an fault to be fixed. In behalf of troubleshooting: I wait for Your answer.

Here the text to the JPG in post-5 --- a NEW ball is given to the shooter alley (therefore the Ball-Index-Relay is NOT YET pulling) - You launch the ball and make some points - "light-green 1, 2, 3 make the Ball-Index-Relay (light-green-4) pull-in --- if You bang a Tilt and the Tilt-Relay pulls-in: light-green-5 makes the "light-green-4" pull-in. "Self-Hold-Current" is established through "dark-green-6, -7, -8". When You loose the ball and the pin steps to next ball: At some time the "dark-green-7 opens - stays open and then the turning Score-Motor also opens "dark-green-8": The Ball-Index-Relay let go.

You play a ball - have made some points so the Ball-Index-Relay is steady pulling - You play good and through "light-blue-1, -2, -3" You get the information "Extraball, pulling light-blue-3" - "Self-Hold-Current" is established "Dark-blue-4, -5, (-6)".
You loose the "ball in play" - "Extraball is lit" - pin makes the Ball-Index-Relay LET GO (((pin does not step to next player / next ball))) - pin gives You the EXTRABALL - You launch it and make points: NOW the PULLING "Extraball-Relay" - therefore "OPEN Switch-light-green-3" HINDERS the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in. Well - as You make points - "dark-Blue-6 OPENS" and BECAUSE the Ball-Index-Relay is NOT YET pulling: The Extraball-Relay looses Self-Hold-Current as "dark-blue-5 AND dark-blue-6" are open.
You make the again, second time some points: NOW the Ball-Index-Relay can pull-in (as light-green-3 is no longer open).
wire-form- Roll-Over-goodie*** - I believe: In Student Prince it is used for "to close the 'TOP GATE' ", greetings Rolf

Hi Max
The following text I have written NOT knowing Your post-9. I will study post-9 tomorrow as it is by now AFTER midnight ..., greetings Rolf

The text:
Hi Max
great - the pin acts "normal as should (playing a regular ball)".
Look here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/119/Williams_1976_Aztec_Instruction_Manual.pdf on page-22 (ori-20): Switch-C (see the colors of the wires - see the text) - Switch-C on Extraball-Relay MUST BE TRUELY OPEN when the relay is pulling. IN YOUR PIN ? Look for drop of solder fallen at "place the wires are soldered-on" - also look for crap wire (maybe thin as an dog-hair).
This Switch-C is "JPG in post-5, my light-green-3 switch".

Play a ball - make points - then gain an Extraball - Extraball-Relay pulls-in and stay pulling --- You loose the regular ball ... Ball-Index-Relay let go, the ball comes as "now You play the earned Extraball" - You make 10 points: Ball-Index-Relay shall NOT pull-in (as my light-green-3-switch IS OPEN) - the Extraball-Relay shall "let go" - then You make again 10 points - NOW the Ball-Index-Relay shall pull-in.

In Switzerland (south of Germany) it is close to nidnight - time to go to sleep - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Max
a question to Your last sentence in post-9 "The strange part ... " - do I read correct when I read: "I gain an Extraball - I see this because the "Extraball-Light is lit" - I loose the regular ball - pin counts down the bonus and resets playfield stuff and gives the Extraball (no stepping on the ball) , "Extraball-Light is lit" - I launch the ball - make points - "Extraball-Light faulty stays lit" - I play and then loose this ball - bonus is counted down etc. - ball is faulty given again (as Extraball). Fault is repeated --- fault is repeated - and NOW - miracle, miracle: The Extraball-Light turns off and the pin acts normal.

Another question: You can do this --- and do it again --- and do it again --- ALWAYS (truely always) on the third given "so called" Extraball: The pin then acts normal --- ALWAYS ? ALWAYS on THIRD ?

When You answer "Sometimes on the first given" - "Sometimes on second given" - "Sometimes on third given" - "sometimes on fourth given" etc. - I THEN could say: A switch is adjusted so SOMETIMES there is connection - and SOMETIMES no connection.
BUT WHEN You say: ALWAYS - ALWAYS on third given": I then can not come up with the switch ...

I am in the non-pleasing situation "not knowing - doing wild guessing".
Please check and write about: Gain an Extraball so the Extraball-Relais is steady pulling, the Ball-Index-Relay is steady pulling. Loose that regular ball and STARE at the Ball-Index-Relay --- the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and then the Outhole-Kicker kicks the ball over to the shooter alley - STARE at the Ball-Index-Relay - question: DID the Ball-Index-Relay let go (for a tenth of a second) and immediately pull in again - and then stay pulling steady ? OR DID The Ball-Index-Relay rock-steady pull all the time ?

The JPG I show here without text is meant "for / as" an appetizer "Lets make some work-around so You can play" - (((You can play but the Information-Light is turned-off earlier - is turned off at the time when the Extraball is given as 'new ball' ". We may look at the JPG AFTER You answered the questions I asked (see above). Greetings Rolf

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Hi Max
thanks for test with "stare at the Ball-Index-Relay". IF (if, if) the Ball-Index-Relay would let go / would let go and pull-in again: I may create some whacky theories.

Looking forward (but not happy looking forward) to "We may have to do some 'hack' " the questions: Do You happen to have some Williams M-29-1100 or whatever Relay - or some Omron 24VAC relay ? Do You happen to have some spare simple two-bladed leaf switches ?
The reason I ask - Here: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=119&picno=34891 we can see: THREE lanes a ball entering the playfield - One of the three the ball MUST roll through --- so I am tempted to change the logic of Extraball-Relay / Ball-Index-Relay - adding a leaf-switch on every lane.

Still - I want to find the fault and fix the fault (if no success: Then maybe the hack mentioned above).
A simple Work-Around so You can play and have NOT the pressure of "must be fixed - must be fixed - we want to play":

Several times You wrote: When the Extraball-Relay is not pulling: The Ball-Index-Relay is nice and let go. So I would like to make the Extraball-Relay let go at the exact same time as the Ball-Index-Relay let go - maybe this works*** and You can play***

It is not a big change - it is not much work to do - please try: See the JPG in post-11 and in Your pin: A short wire runs from Coil on Extraball-Relay to switch mounted on the relay. THE OTHER blade of this switch has soldered-on: Wire-color-Grey-Yellow. UNSOLDER or cut wire-grey-yellow (when You cut: Do cut about 2 to 3 inches away from the solder-lug). OK - NO MORE connection through there.
Look at Your Ball-Index-Relay - a short wire runs from the Coil to Switch mounted on the relay - THE OTHER Switchblade on this switch: HERE at other switchblade - here is the ending point of a permanent jumper You must lay , solder-lug of wire-green-black --- starting-point of the Jumper-Wire is "Switchblade-grey-yellow on switch on Extraball-Relay.

With this "cut and connect to Switch on Ball-Index-Relay": The Extraball-Relay NOW has the same Self-Hold-Circuitry as the Ball-Index-Relay. My prediction is: pin runs --- ALSO with an Extraball.

works***, play***: The Extraball-Information-Light will be turned-off earlier - well its a work-around (You easy can go back to original state) to take pressure away from You - so You / we can search the fault "at ease".

I would do / I do accept when You would write / You do write: "Thanks Rolf - do not want to get into hacks / modifications".
Greetings Rolf

P.S.: My main problem is (see post-5): How can the pulling Extraball-Relay have an effect on the "cutting Self-Hold-Circuitry of Ball-Index-Relay, the dark-green-6, -7, -8".

Hi Max
Your post-14: Very strange, frustrating. In this post-15 I do NOT write about testing on the mystery --- some general words:
Our problem is: We believe Your saying is true - Your saying "when no Extraball is gained - the (regular) ball is lost: Ball-Index-Relay ALWAYS let go at the time the pin kicks the next ball over to the shooter alley".
IF (if, if, when) we can prove "Your saying is NOT TRUE --- SOMETIMES the Ball-Index-Relay does NOT let go": We then can investigate in "post-5, JPG, dark-green-6, -7, -8".

It is not much fun having the playfield up - simulating "lifetime of a ball" by manually making points - maybe gaining an Extraball, simulating "ball gets lost" - staring at the Ball-Index-Relay , staring at other stuff --- doing so for some hundreds of games. No, not much fun.

Much better is "You have the playfield down and You play - You really play - You like Your pin and You play some many games --- and You have an added Information-Light that shows You "Ball-Index-Relay is pulling (Information-Light is lit)" - and tells You "Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling as the Information-Light is unlit". You play many games and at the time the pin kicks-out a new ball: You look at the Information-Light - lit or unlit ? AND WHEN the result is: SOMETIMES the Information-Light STAYS lit: You would have proven "SOMETIMES the Ball-Index-Relay does NOT let go: We then can investigate in post-5, JPG, dark-green-6, -7, -8".

That Information-Light - please make Yourself one and mount*** it --- here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics in post-12 "SteveFury" shows his Test-Light (I then made myself this handy tool), You also see it in the upper right corner of my JPG. To mount*** it in Your pin: Have the two bulbs in the outside - taped to the pin, the two long wires run through the open coin-door to "Coil on Ball-Index-Relay" - one gator-clip (of the "wire to the bulbs") is clipped-on at "left side-solder-lug of the coil" --- and the other gator-clip () is clipped-on at "right side-solder-lug of the coil" (((You have mounted the Test-Light PARALLEL to / with the Coil))) --- when the Ball-Index-Relay is pulling: Testlight is lit and when the relay is not pulling: Testlight is unlit.

Make Yourself such an Testlight and use it and "prove right" or "prove wrong" the mentioned "Your saying". Do this "playing and looking at the Testlight / Information-Light" BEFORE You cut / desolder wires. I hope for "SOMETIMES the Ball-Index-Relay does NOT let go: We then can investigate in post-5, JPG, dark-green-6, -7, -8".

If "No luck at all": We can do some add-on / little alteration to MAKE the Extraball-Relay quit pulling: See in the JPG the "red N" Microswitch --- we can mount such an microswitch (I made this about a year ago on a pin) - mount in the way the "rod of launching a given new ball" can go through the opening of the micro-switch --- for "to launch the ball" You pull the rod therefore the ball rolls a bit and by that rolling down a bit: Actuates the microswitch.
We can make a little alteration so Your problem dissapears - still: I would like to find the fault ...

I wait for result of "using a Testlight mounted parallel to the Coil on Ball-Index-Relay" - EVERY time a Ball is kicked over to the shooter alley and rest there to be launched: Test-Light MUST be unlit --- unlit if You have gained an Extraball or if You have "not gained an Extraball" --- EVERY time: MUST be unlit, greetings Rolf

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