(Topic ID: 290486)

Williams 1974 Lucky Ace 1-9 Rollover Switch adjustments?

By RetroDad65

6 months ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by paulace
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Before contacts (resized).jpg
20210323_220743_HDR (resized).jpg
InkedBefore_LI (resized).jpg
Inked20210323_222013_HDR_LI (resized).jpg
Inked4_LI (resized).jpg
Inked3_LI (resized).jpg
Inked2_LI (resized).jpg
lucky ace lock switch (resized).PNG

#1 6 months ago

First time question: Ok I have been fixing up my Williams 1974 Lucky Ace machine. Anyway I am down to one issue. I rebuilt all the rollover buttons due to them sticking down when the ball rolled over them, they actually had a grease like dirt in them. I had to take them apart to clean. I adjusted the buttons so they barely protruded, for low ball diversion. However when the ball rolls over them the light will go out as it should, but very rarely will it go slow enough to lock in the 50 pt relay to make the proper score and sound. Most of the time I will get maybe 10 pts , sometimes score motor will start but I can't get the relay to lock in quick enough. I tried making the roll overs protrude higher, with no luck. I tried getting the 50 pt relay contacts as close as possible to lock in quicker. I have tried making sure the NC in the 50 Pt circuit on the score motor is making clean contact. Still no improvement. I miss the consistent sound of the 50 pt chimes while playing I almost would prefer them to stick (not really). Any pointers? I know it will never be perfect but it needs to be better. Thanks -Bill

#2 6 months ago

Hi Bill - welcome to the forums. When the rollover switches are closed, even very briefly, the 50 pt relay should energize, and there is a normally open switch on the 50 pt relay that should close and keep the 50 pt relay energized until the score motor has run - a locking switch. (Another switch on the 50 pt relay activates the score motor) Near the end of the score motor's movement, a switch on the score motor (5C) that is in series with that locking relay will open, thus de-energizing the 50 pt relay. (See the snippet below)

Check to see that the score motor is running, when you hit a rollover, and check to see that the 50 pt relay is energizing. If that relay is energizing, that locking switch should activate practically immediately, and the relay should stay on. If it's not doing that, you may have a problem with that locking switch. Use the wire colors on the schematic (looks like blue-yellow and red-green) to identify which switch it is. Clean the contacts of that switch and make sure the gap between the contacts is correct so that the contacts press together and actually slide against each other a bit when the relay is energized. Do the same for all the switches on that 50 pt relay while you're there....carefully.

lucky ace lock switch (resized).PNG

#3 6 months ago

Also check that the score motor switch is actually closed.

If you manually engage the 50 pt relay it should stay energized; if it does not, the score motor switch is suspect.

#4 5 months ago
Quoted from paulace:

Hi Bill - welcome to the forums. When the rollover switches are closed, even very briefly, the 50 pt relay should energize, and there is a normally open switch on the 50 pt relay that should close and keep the 50 pt relay energized until the score motor has run - a locking switch. (Another switch on the 50 pt relay activates the score motor) Near the end of the score motor's movement, a switch on the score motor (5C) that is in series with that locking relay will open, thus de-energizing the 50 pt relay. (See the snippet below)
Check to see that the score motor is running, when you hit a rollover, and check to see that the 50 pt relay is energizing. If that relay is energizing, that locking switch should activate practically immediately, and the relay should stay on. If it's not doing that, you may have a problem with that locking switch. Use the wire colors on the schematic (looks like blue-yellow and red-green) to identify which switch it is. Clean the contacts of that switch and make sure the gap between the contacts is correct so that the contacts press together and actually slide against each other a bit when the relay is energized. Do the same for all the switches on that 50 pt relay while you're there....carefully.
[quoted image]

Yep everything is good with the wiring. I will try again to get the gaps closer on the locking switch of the 50 pt relay and try to get the gaps closer on the roll over switches too. I don't know how close is too close until I try. Does anyone have a good spec on the what the gaps should be? The only gap specs in the manual are for the coin door which I don't use since I have the coin lockout circuit change installed. Who knows I may end up replacing or swapping the switches with another relays, when the roll over used to stick the 50 pt relay was on for longer than it should be. I will Grab a picture of the gaps before and after and let you know what happens.

#5 5 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Also check that the score motor switch is actually closed.
If you manually engage the 50 pt relay it should stay energized; if it does not, the score motor switch is suspect.

It stays once it locks in. BTW how do I post without quoting a previous post? I don't see where to do that.

#6 5 months ago
Quoted from RetroDad65:It stays once it locks in. BTW how do I post without quoting a previous post? I don't see where to do that.

So are you saying the 50 pt relay does lock in reliably and you still don't get 50 points?

#7 5 months ago
Quoted from paulace:

So are you saying the 50 pt relay does lock in reliably and you still don't get 50 points?

Well yes when I use my finger to push the roll over down or the ball goes over real slow. It just takes too much contact time before it locks in.

Anyway I took all the switches off, man were they dirty. I cleaned them and will finish adjusting them tomorrow or the next day and solder them back in. Pictures will follow of what I did. I also readjusted the roll over buttons so they do not protrude as high on the playfield. The ball was deviating too much with them higher on the playfield.

#8 5 months ago

Adjusted so they are 'barely protruding' is simply not correct. You shouldn't really need to adjust the buttons to rest lower. They are designed to be all the way up and the switch adjusted so the top blade is pressing up *just* enough to keep the button all the way up, and second blade is not gapped too much or too little. With them sticking up only partially they can't get the same switch closure 'wipe' and closure time that they were meant to all the way up and you could end up with an issue like this where the closure time and stroke are insufficient. They already have very little closure time as it is. This is all assuming the buttons are in fact totally cleaned in their bushings and are not sticky in the pf holes.

#9 5 months ago

Ok so here is my progress. As I said before the contacts were filthy. Before contacts (resized).jpg So I cleaned and adjusted them. 20210323_220743_HDR (resized).jpg InkedBefore_LI (resized).jpg Inked20210323_222013_HDR_LI (resized).jpg When I said I adjusted the roll overs, what I meant to say is I set them as close to what they were originally. Since the roll-over buttons stems were slightly different from the originals. I.E. they move the same amount up and down. Inked2_LI (resized).jpg Inked3_LI (resized).jpgI included a picture of the 50 pts relay. Inked4_LI (resized).jpg So after all that It still only slightly better. I get a few more times the relay locks in but not many more. As before all the relays that shut off the lights work but not the 50 pt all the time. I will try to get the roll-over contacts even closer but I think I will try switching the 50pt relay contacts with contacts from a lesser used relay.

#10 5 months ago

Sometimes you need to use a metal file on really rough contacts. Another possibility I've had a few times is that the contact becomes loose in the blade. You have to re-peen it or replace.

#11 5 months ago

Thanks for the photos, Bill. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like the surface of that locking switch is kind of rough. As the good dr says, maybe smoothing it with a file would help? His point about the contact becoming electrically separated from the leaf is good too...always good to check. You might wind up replacing it.

As soon as that 50 pt relay energizes, it should lock in through the motor 5C switch and that locking switch on itself. One of those two switches has to not be making good contact if it's taking a while to lock in. Can anyone else see any other possibilities?

Can you watch that locking switch on the 50-pt relay when you roll over a button? Is there a lot of sparking when the relay tries to energize?

#12 5 months ago

<<I have tried making sure the NC in the 50 Pt circuit on the score motor is making clean contact>>

Do you mean you actually cleaned that switch, or just checked that it is making adequate contact when opening/closing? That one could be well-worn causing intermittent contact and need cleaning if you haven't yet. And adjusted for adequate closure if it is over-gapped, also tighten the switch stack screws on it first.

#13 5 months ago

Ok Thanks for the ideas I will look at it tomorrow. I think the contacts on the 50pt are rough because the roll-overs used to stick. I assume you mean I can check the blade contact by trying to make it move on the blade (or leaf). As I said before worst case I will switch the blades with blades from a lesser used one, possibly one of the special relays or the number match relay (I don't use that no point). Does anyone still make new relay blades?

#14 5 months ago

You can get new switch blades and contacts from The Pinball Resource.

#15 5 months ago
Quoted from paulace:

You can get new switch blades and contacts from The Pinball Resource.

Of course what doesn't he have? (Except for yellow tinted #44 according to his website) Thanks

Side question do the colored light silicon sleeves work on #44's? Might be better than buying colored #44's. I plan on using them on the backglass since mine has some see through spots on it.

#16 5 months ago

Steve does have an awful lot of stuff, especially if you're working on Gottliebs. I don't know for sure about the silicon sleeves, but can you even get colored 44's? I've only seen white ones.

#17 5 months ago
Quoted from paulace:

Steve does have an awful lot of stuff, especially if you're working on Gottliebs. I don't know for sure about the silicon sleeves, but can you even get colored 44's? I've only seen white ones.

Yep PBR has some colors he accidentally sent me a box of red ones which I ended up using. Pinball Life has yellow 47's and blue 44's & 47's
And of course the colored #44 LEDs.

#18 5 months ago

Ok so here is what happened, I cleaned the 50Pt contacts, one was rough I did have to use a file. That helped alot. Then I said what the heck I cleaned the NC contact on the score motor stack and that did the trick. The relay makes and holds like it is supposed too. Works great. Thanks everyone!

Of course I have another problem now which will be the subject of a different thread. Let's just say don't touch the score motor stacks unless you have to. LOL

#19 5 months ago

Good, glad you got that problem fixed.

Everyone's different - some people can go into a complicated stack of switches and not hurt anything, others just can't. So I always hold my breath when I tell someone to get in there a dig around, hoping they're in the first group - otherwise you can cause more problems than you fix. But sometimes, you just have to get your fingers in there.

But you're almost there, and I see you have MarkG helping you on this latest problem. He's really good - he'll get you sorted quickly.

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