Williams 1968 Pinball Lady Luck problem ID

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#1 8 years ago

OP

RA

Rguitars

Inactive member

Valley Stream, NY

8y 8,750 3

well I am a new pinball owner but long time player, its been a dream to own my own machine , and my boss made that happen, knowing what a pinball nut I am, he did a house clean out and came across a 68' lady luck..... in pretty darn good shape actually out side of the cabinet , it was set up for free play and must have been in someones house for about , 15-20 years,
I was able to get it home, do a little cleaning on it and get her running, we have been playing this game PLENTY to work out any kinks, we got the score reels working and correct, and one sticky kicker cleaned up and working right. got the bell working because it was disconnected. ( probably when the free play was done to it to make it not so noisy to use in a home.......also why the replay/credit wheel and replay bell dont work as well )

this machine gets plenty of plays here for about a month, then we blew out the 1st fuse , so went out replaced that fuse with a 10 amp 32 volt since thats All I could find , turned it on and poof ( the table lights came on, no score motor ) but the next fuse blew. so I know there is a huge voltage issue here being that one is labeled as 110V ( photo below) so I found a fuse set and ordered it, BUT i dont want to install them until I check for a short somewhere that may have caused that fuse to go in the first place, ( everything was running great)

this machine ran fine with the lock relay coil blown and the yellow wire shown tied off, not sure why this was done or if its effecting game play since I think I have only played this machine before at Silverball in Asbury before I got it.

I'm ok with tube amp circuits and such but this whole EM thing has me confused but HOOKED and before this happened, we were already out hunting for another clean out/on the cheap EM so we could have two.

any advise/input you have would be greatly appreciated

thanks and IMG_7577_(resized).JPG
cheers
Russ

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IMG_7586_(resized).JPG

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#2 8 years ago

H F

heldereflippers

Pinside member

Den Helder

8y 22,150 65 13

Dear Russ,

I would do it like this:
1. Take all the fuses out of the machine (also from the from the relay bank reset 1A) and only put the 110 V fuse in the machine. If it blows, you have a problem in your primairy circuit (wiring, transformer). If the Voltage is too high (say above 120 V, lower the voltage by putting a transformer in series with the linevoltage. If the fuse does not blow:
2. Place the relay bank reset fuse and try again. If the fuse blows, the reset bank is your problem. If not:
3. Place one of the 6 volt fuses.
4. Place the other 6 volt fuse
5. Place the 24 volt fuse
Succes

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#3 8 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Russ
welcome to pinside.com. You did a good description - many pinsiders like to help, we will find the cause(s) to Your problem(s).

Great, You are careful - inside a pin there are solder-lugs - if You touch one, You might touch 110 VAC - other lugs: You might touch 24 VAC or You might touch 6 VAC.
For Safety Reasons: ALWAYS unplug the 110 Main Power-Cord - do NOT only toggle the Main-Power-Switch. Look at Your first picture at the bottom -> the 110 VAC-Fuse-Holder - it has a wire "Yellow***" soldered-on and it has a wire "Red" soldered-on. DANGER: If You have the Main-Power-Cord plugged-in: ALWAYS CURRENT READY at Solder-Lug-wire-Yellow - and when the Fuse is in the fuseholder: The side "Red" AND the Solder-Lug "Red" at the Toggle-Switch ALSO have 110 VAC ready !!! I see this -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1404 -> Schematic Diagram -> at "C-1" / "B-1".
Also I see: "Score-Motor-Switch-3A" and "Switch on Player-Reset-Relay" and a 1.0 Amp fuse and the "Coil on Relay-Bank Reset" - ALL THESE THINGS HANDLE 110 VAC !!!
(((Think of: You have plugged-in and toggled-on (maybe have a game started) - accidentally You touch Score-Motor-Switch-3A -> what happens ? -> You might get killed by 110 VAC !!!)))

"Yellow***": Be aware: THIS 110-VAC-wire-Yellow IS NOT WIRE-YELLOW USED ALL AROUND IN THE PIN connecting Relays / switches back to transformer (24 VAC-side / 6VAC-side) !!!

Flipperfingers / Score-Drums / Coils on Units / Coils on Relays are "Consumers" - they consume 24 VAC (some do consume 110 VAC) - a fuse is also a Consumer - if the fuse is the ONLY consumer in a circuitry: The fuse blows. So a fuse is a "a bit costly one-time-only Consumer". Of course, we do not like fuses to blow - but they are in the circuitrys - and we might use the fuses for a one-time-only consumer.
I am not familiar with "using Circuitry-Breakers (to save money) instead of a regular fuse" - maybe some other pinsider jumps in here and tells about ?

Look here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#wrong -> third picture -> a Bally Lock-Relay: See that "brown / crispy" wrapping paper ?

Unplug the Main-Power-Cord, then look throughout the pin (in the cabinet / underneathside of playfield / Backbox) for such "brown / crispy wrapping paper". Maybe (maybe) when You were happily playing: You did not notice a relay or Knocker or Bell or anything stucks and overheats -> coil is shot, making a short and so Your fuse blows.

Please write: Do You have a Total-Playmeter ? Do You have a "Coin-Lockout-Coil (mounted on the Cash- / Front-Door)" ? I may want to use them (or maybe using the Tilt-Relay) for testing ...

"Why did Your pin run whith that freaky-looking / shot Lock-Relay" ? Well, I had a look at Your pic-3 (post-1) - looked up in the schema -> at A/B-1, at A/B-1, at D-3, at E-3, at C-11*** I found the switches - I compared with Your picture - conclusion: The switches in Your pin are manipulated, blades BENT -> the switches are "as if the relay would be pulling" (((well, the upmost-switch in the picture is not bent - but there a NO wires to the coil of the relay))).

C-11***: I do not fully understand - it has to do with "2 player-game, 3 Balls per game" - we might have to look at (?) - Is Your pin set to "5 balls per game" ?
Greetings Rolf

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#4 8 years ago

OP

RA

Rguitars

Inactive member

Valley Stream, NY

8y 8,750 3

thanks folks ! absorbing this knowledge Heldereflippers I will give that a shot, the wacky thing is this HAS been working seemingly correctly and well, so .... I am thinking something shorted.

one thing I should mention is that the game was IN play when it went dead.

Rolf, yes working with tube amps and caps you get real careful about this stuff, being that so far i have found only ONE resistor in this whole machine, you can imagine the look on my face when I opened this up for the first time. ( I knew how to clean these things, but not what was inside!) we did change out the plug for a grounded 3 prong, as the one that looked like lamp cord on it was badly deteriorated. we did that FIRST before even powering up. ( i have been reading that link you sent before )

due to it being set up for free play when we got it , I "assumed" the knocker, credit/match wheel and that bell/match unit were simply disconnected and that that was needed to set it up for free play ( electrical engineer I am not, and the original schematic is a far cry from a Fender F51 layout) but i do kind of understand that EM pinball's are like a multi switch circuit and had to assume that that is why that was all done up like that when I got it.

i have checked ALL of the coils, all of them are in pretty remarkable shape actually minus that lock relay, i will double check and give a report on that, i had one intermittent coil ( the restart one in the back box that re-sets the game when you hold player start ) that got stuck but after spraying it out , went away. but that means that could be suspect as well.

I do have a total play meter it is working and is currently clocked at 54490 plays ( probably put well over a hundred games on it since we got it)

the tilt adjustment did not come on the machine, it was missing,

coin lock out coil on the door.... nope I dont think so , let me have a second look,

the only reason I ran with that fried coil is because that yellow lead was clipped and tied off , when I turned it on, didnt notice anything missing or wrong. ( so my guess is I SHOULD be replacing and reconnecting that coil ) and yes that is what I was thinking at the time

the game was working in both 1 player and 2 player ( PLENTY of my friends have been over to have a bracketed torney on her already ) the pin is set to 5 balls per play ( there is that jones pin in the right jumper whole.,)

I am going to pick up a continuity tester, since that makes TOTAL sense for me to have now,

I am digesting this , I REALLY appreciate the help guys !!!!!
I'll be back with more info once I apply what you guys have shared here.

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#5 8 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Russ
here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/71-williams-star-dust-blowing-24v-fuse Jeff is struggling with the same problem "fuse blows" - might want to read ?
"Continuity-Tester <-> precise OHM-measurement (resistance 1.0 Ohm, 1.2, 1.3, 1.6 ... 5.4 ... 10.8 ... 20.6 ... 30.2 Ohm)": You should measure Ohms - NOT check for continuity and then saying: I have continuity, therefore the Coil is shot, making a short.
Here: http://www.pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html some information. And here: https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html . Look around - Coils on relais usually have around 10, 15 to 30 Ohms. Flipper-Coils have around 2.0 Ohms (as they MUST be powerful). The general rule is: If You measure less than 2.0 Ohms on a coil: Unsolder wire(s) away from one solder-Lug (one side) - then try the pin -> have You found the bad coil ? (Does the fuse no longer blow (due to the Coil-is-no-longer-in-the-circuitry) ?)

You can go through the pin just measuring Ohms on each coil - my tip "lookout for crispy-brown wrapping paper on a coil" is simply: trying to reduce work by checking "probably bad coil (because of crispy-brown look)" FIRST.

"False results using the meter set to check-for-continuity": -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1404 -> schema-C-1 and D-1: See the wiring of the transformer - 24VAC-side -> If You check for continuity somewhere in the pin: You might have "continuity" ALL the way around THROUGH the windings on the transformer ... (false result)

Candidate number-one for "shot coil making a short is the Lock-Relay" - in Your pin it cannot be the Lock-Relay: In Your picture I see: NO wires to the Coil.

I write it again - for the moment live with the Lock-Relay in Your pin "as is" - the (probably shot) coil is NOT CONNECTED (can do no harm) - AND: On every switch the blades are bent in the way "the switch acts as if the relay would be pulling" - no need to fumble around on the Lock-Relay. Greetings Rolf