(Topic ID: 245816)

William's Grand Prix, ball wont kick out, end of ball wont advance


By FatPanda

3 months ago



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  • 29 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by FatPanda
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L & R Bonus Relay (resized).jpg
0Grand-Prix-Work-44 (resized).jpg
20190624_164953 (resized).jpg
Score motor 4 (resized).jpg
L & R Bonus Relay (resized).jpg
R Bonus unit (resized).jpg
L Bonus unit (resized).jpg
GP outhole relay (resized).jpg
0Grand-Prix-Work-43 (resized).jpg
0Grand-Prix-Work-42 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).PNG
Capture (resized).PNG

#1 3 months ago

Was cleaning out the drop target mechs and re-sleeving the coils. Got them all back in, start up a game, and the ball doesnt kick out of the trough. I put up some points, test the drop targets, they all register and reset. Drain the ball, and it'll count down the bonus, but wont advance to ball 2 and wont kick out the ball. I was pretty careful to not futz with any of the other mechs or relays, but I'm sure I bumped something or knocked something during the process. Haven't had a chance to check the schematics yet. Any thoughts on where to start?

#2 3 months ago

Did you checked the outhole switch. Should be closed with ball sitting in there.

If that is not it then I would check score motor. If it is similar to a Capt Fantastic I would check #1 switch stack and make sure they are adjusted correctly

#3 3 months ago

Manually activate the out hole relay on the bottom tray in the cabinet. See if that portion is working.

#4 3 months ago

The outhole switch works because it'll start counting down bonus when activated. After the "ball ends", if I manually activate the outhole relay, it'll move onto ball 2 and I can hear the outhole solenoid kick.

I did notice that at the beginning of a game, if one of the drop targets are already down, it wont cycle them to reset them. But during a "game", if one is already down and the other one goes down, it resets. Not if there is any relation or if this is a separate issue.

#5 3 months ago

Check the M/B on the Outhole as well as score motor sw. 4A.

Capture (resized).PNG
#6 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check the M/B on the Outhole as well as score motor sw. 4A.[quoted image]

Ok. I'll have to check that later this afternoon and get back to you. I'm not really familiar with the score motors on Williams games. I know there is a plug that allows you to turn it by hand? Do I want to move the plug and how can I turn it?

#7 3 months ago

You can pull the plug and turn the motor via the plastic or bakelite discs. Go SLOW.

#8 3 months ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I'm not really familiar with the score motors on Williams games.

No need to pull the service motor plug, though you should obviously pull the main plug. Loosen the switch stack screws enough to get in and clean. Lettering starts at the bottom, and Index is the tall first stack, then 1, 2, 2 Long dwell, 3, 4.

#9 3 months ago

And check sw. B here for the ball count problem.
Capture (resized).PNG

#10 3 months ago

Thanks guys. I'll give it a go and report back.

#11 3 months ago

Hi FatPanda
see the JPG - a played ball is lost, enters the Outhole so closes "Outhole Switch" - along "my green lines" or "my rosa/pink lines" the Left or Right Bonus-Relay mounted on the playfield is made to pull-in --- the Bonus-Ladder is counted down - then a threebladed switch is thrown - along "my brown lines" then through a switch - AND NOW along "my red lines" the Outhole-Relay-Coil should get current.
I believe the fault is in "my red wiring" --- a wire broken-off at a switch on a relay on the playfield or the Jones-Plug in the connection "playfield - mech. panel in the cabinet" to coil (or "switch on Outhole-Relay connected to the coil") Outhole-Relay. Greetings Rolf

0Grand-Prix-Work-42 (resized).jpg
#12 3 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi FatPanda
see the JPG - a played ball is lost, enters the Outhole so closes "Outhole Switch" - along "my green lines" or "my rosa/pink lines" the Left or Right Bonus-Relay mounted on the playfield is made to pull-in --- the Bonus-Ladder is counted down - then a threebladed switch is thrown - along "my brown lines" then through a switch - AND NOW along "my red lines" the Outhole-Relay-Coil should get current.
I believe the fault is in "my red wiring" --- a wire broken-off at a switch on a relay on the playfield or the Jones-Plug in the connection "playfield - mech. panel in the cabinet" to coil (or "switch on Outhole-Relay connected to the coil") Outhole-Relay. Greetings Rolf[quoted image]

Thank you Rolf. I did have to pull the board from base of the cabinet up as I lost a nut underneath. In doing that, I did have to remove the three Jones plugs that are near the coin box. Is that plug that you indicated one of those three? I will check again the wires to the related switches and relays. When I checked last night and this morning, I did not find anything broken. I did not check the Jones plugs though and will certainly do that and report back.

#13 3 months ago

Hi FatPanda
You stand as a player, have the playfield lifted, You look into the cabinet --- on Your right, far away from You: Usually there are Jones-Plugs plugged-in. The one I showed in the JPG in post-11 has two times 9 plugs. We usually cannot get to these Jones-Plugs in the cabinet when we have the playfield lifted. Pull the raised playfield a bit towards You - then lift more - more - have the playfield vertically - more, more - then lean the +/- vertical playfield against the backbox --- You may have to unplug all the Jones-Plugs having connection to the playfield so You then can take-out the playfield --- now You can inspect the socket of the 2 times 9 Jones-Plug.

Well, BEFORE You work on the mentioned above - please do a test: Wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons) - start a game, play, make some points, make some bonus - now take the ball out, lift the playfield, manually close the Outhole-Switch - let the bonus be counted down --- THEN press the armature on the Outhole-Relay and let go - question: DOES the Outhole-Relay STAY pulling ? - and the motor runs - and the Outhole-Kicker fires ? Greetings Rolf

#14 3 months ago

Hi FatPanda
wait with "taking out the playfield" - wait for my "post to come soon". Greetings Rolf

#15 3 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Well, BEFORE You work on the mentioned above - please do a test: Wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons) - start a game, play, make some points, make some bonus - now take the ball out, lift the playfield, manually close the Outhole-Switch - let the bonus be counted down --- THEN press the armature on the Outhole-Relay and let go - question: DOES the Outhole-Relay STAY pulling ? - and the motor runs - and the Outhole-Kicker fires ? Greetings Rolf

I've done this this morning. I have to manually activate the Outhole-relay to get the game to advance to the next ball. The relay does not stay pulling. The motor runs and the outhole kicker fires (like normal).

#16 3 months ago

Hi FatPanda
it is a drag to take out the playfield - crawl into the cabinet - fumbling on Jones-Plug-Sockets.
Using one or two Jumper-Wire***(s) tells us if the fault really is where we (me) want to look for.
If You do not have such Jumper-Wires*** with gator-clips on the ends: Take a wire - have the ends free of insulation - wrap the bare end around the solder-lug - check if it is wrapped good means does not come loose.
I do not want to work on the problem "Making connection so Initial-current flows to Coil on Outhole-Relay" - I first want to work on the problem "when manually activating the Outhole-Relay it then MUST stay pulling for quite a while" - and in Your pin the Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling.
See the JPG here - "along "my greyish lines" and along "my blue lines" You have a fault on the Self-Hold-Circuitry on the Outhole-Relay.
It is getting late here in Switzerland - I soon want to go to sleep.
See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1072&picno=16795&zoom=1 - question: Does in Your pin the Top-Eject-Hole functions ? Write about -
if it functions we can use the Top-Eject-Relay, switches on the relay for trouble-shooting on the problem "Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling"
if it does not function we have an complicated troubleshooting -- see the JPG here (on the left, upwards).

Please explain how the Outhole-Kicker can "kick (normal)" when the Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling for a while means for almost half a turn of the Score-Motor.
Till tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

0Grand-Prix-Work-43 (resized).jpg
#17 3 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi FatPanda
it is a drag to take out the playfield - crawl into the cabinet - fumbling on Jones-Plug-Sockets.
Using one or two Jumper-Wire***(s) tells us if the fault really is where we (me) want to look for.
If You do not have such Jumper-Wires*** with gator-clips on the ends: Take a wire - have the ends free of insulation - wrap the bare end around the solder-lug - check if it is wrapped good means does not come loose.
I do not want to work on the problem "Making connection so Initial-current flows to Coil on Outhole-Relay" - I first want to work on the problem "when manually activating the Outhole-Relay it then MUST stay pulling for quite a while" - and in Your pin the Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling.
See the JPG here - "along "my greyish lines" and along "my blue lines" You have a fault on the Self-Hold-Circuitry on the Outhole-Relay.
It is getting late here in Switzerland - I soon want to go to sleep.
See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1072&picno=16795&zoom=1 - question: Does in Your pin the Top-Eject-Hole functions ? Write about -
if it functions we can use the Top-Eject-Relay, switches on the relay for trouble-shooting on the problem "Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling"
if it does not function we have an complicated troubleshooting -- see the JPG here (on the left, upwards).
Please explain how the Outhole-Kicker can "kick (normal)" when the Outhole-Relay does not stay pulling for a while means for almost half a turn of the Score-Motor.
Till tomorrow. Greetings Rolf[quoted image]

I'm trying to follow but I'm not sure I understand. To answer your question about the top hole eject, yes it works when the switch is activated. When I manually press the Outhole relay, the outhole kicker fires. What causes the Outhole relay to energize?

When a ball drains, the bonus counts down...then...???....then the Outhole Relay energizes, the game advances to Ball 2, the outhole kicker kicks the ball into the shooter lane. What is missing in this sequence?

#18 3 months ago

This probably won't solve this particular problem but when I was working on my Grand Prix I couldn't believe the number of bad solder joints that were on my game. On coils and relays especially. I'd recommend tugging all wires and inspecting the joints closely. I remember that my outhole kicker was intermittent and it ended up being a solder joints on that as well. Game has been Rock solid since going through everything!

#19 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeS:

This probably won't solve this particular problem but when I was working on my Grand Prix I couldn't believe the number of bad solder joints that were on my game. On coils and relays especially. I'd recommend tugging all wires and inspecting the joints closely. I remember that my outhole kicker was intermittent and it ended up being a solder joints on that as well. Game has been Rock solid since going through everything!

I've been tugging on everything I can touch. Everything seems to be connected solidly. Again, this issue came out of the blue because I had been removing all of the drop target mechs to clean them. I really didnt touch anything else while I was doing it!

#20 3 months ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I really didnt touch anything else while I was doing it!

I had a few problems with start up on mine when I first got it. Turns out the Jones plugs were oxidized just enough. I cleaned them with Scotchbrite pads and then it started working.

Anytime anyone says "all I did was..." usually ends up with "ohhhhhh, well actually I had to do ... as well." Case in point. You say "I really didn't touch anything else while I was doing it!" , but before that you said "I did have to remove the three Jones plugs".

When trying to troubleshoot anything, I always ask for an exact sequence of what the person did. Every single detail is important. Sometimes these little things get skipped over and it makes it almost impossible to figure out. Well, at least it wastes alot of time.

Not saying it's the Jones plugs but every detail helps.

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from Catch86:

I had a few problems with start up on mine when I first got it. Turns out the Jones plugs were oxidized just enough. I cleaned them with Scotchbrite pads and then it started working.
Anytime anyone says "all I did was..." usually ends up with "ohhhhhh, well actually I had to do ... as well." Case in point. You say "I really didn't touch anything else while I was doing it!" , but before that you said "I did have to remove the three Jones plugs".
When trying to troubleshoot anything, I always ask for an exact sequence of what the person did. Every single detail is important. Sometimes these little things get skipped over and it makes it almost impossible to figure out. Well, at least it wastes alot of time.
Not saying it's the Jones plugs but every detail helps.

I get it The Jones plugs that I removed in this case were at the base near the coin box, which controls credits, coin values, etc. I know something got bumped somewhere along the way, hence why this thread exists. It's frustrating when it seems that you just look at the machine and something isn't working. All in part of EM ownership right?

I've had a chance to look at the manual and the schematics. I have a hard time reading and understanding schematics! I think the focus needs to be on the logic starting from when the credit button is pressed, since the ball does not kick out from the trough when starting a game.

From what I can tell, the Outhole Relay, is what tells the outhole kicker to energize. It looks like Switch F is what causes this:

"Opens in circuit to Tilt Relay & Ball Index Relay and closes to Left and Right Bonus S.U. (Step Up?) Coils and Ball Release Coil."

I'm assuming the ball release coil is what I'm thinking of as the outhole kicker coil.

Now, before this step occurs, I think I'm having a problem with the Outhole Relay failing to energize. The switches on the relay itself work, since I can manually press the relay and the events occur.

So the Outhole:
"Is energized by the Outhole Switch, Thru the Left Bonus Relay and Zero Switch on the Left Bonus Unit---Also by the Outhole Switch, Thru the Right Bonus Relay and the Zero Switch on the Right Bonus Unit"

The bonus counts down when either the Left Saucer or the Right Saucer Switches are closed. The bonus also counts when the ball enters the outhole (during a game).

Switches 2B and 2A on both Bonus Relays are in circuit to the Outhole Relay. I'll have to check those switches when I get home. Also the Zero Switches on the Bonus units. Am I headed in the right direction here?

GP outhole relay (resized).jpgL & R Bonus Relay (resized).jpgL Bonus unit (resized).jpgR Bonus unit (resized).jpg
#22 3 months ago

Also, how can I tell which bonus unit is which? There is one near the flippers and one near the back (bottom when standing up) of the playfield.

#23 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check the M/B on the Outhole as well as score motor sw. 4A.[quoted image]

I'll have to check this also. The score motor is dirty, but I didn't see any broken wires. I'll have to take a closer look. This is what you're looking at correct?
Score motor 4 (resized).jpg

20190624_164953 (resized).jpg
#24 3 months ago
Quoted from FatPanda:I'll have to check this also. The score motor is dirty, but I didn't see any broken wires. I'll have to take a closer look. This is what you're looking at correct?

Yes. Loosen the screws on the stack and clean with swabs and 91# rubbing alcohol and/or 600# sandpaper. Swabs are good for getting rid of major crud first.

#25 3 months ago

Working on the same game same problem I think I have mine down to a dirty player unit not stepping the player or balls correctly not sure if this helps I am going to clean it tonight I will post if works or not.

#26 3 months ago

Hi FatPanda
in other words I repeat (post-16) - when there is a problem on / with the Outhole-Relay: I'd first check /make function the "manually activated Outhole-Relay must stay pulling for quite a while (as long as the motor is turning, doing almost half a revolution)" - then I'd work on "after the bonus is counted down the Outhole-Relay must pull-in (and then stay pulling).
See the JPG - You said "Top Eject-Hole feature fully functions" - so "my yellow lines, return side connection" are good. The "greyish lines are the "return side connection on the Outhole-Relay" - with "my dark-blue line / Jumper-Wire" we guarantee the "return side connection on the Outhole-Relay" function - as we jumper and then use the "my yellow lines".
So toggle-off, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - establish permanent "my dark-blue Jumper", plug-in, toggle-on, start a game, make some points - then (manually) press and let go the armature on the Outhole-Relay - question: Does the Outhole-Relay stay pulling for "almost half of a revolution of the turning Score-Motor ?
IF "No": Toggle-off, unplug the main power cord, establish a second permanent Jumper-Wire "Power-Side, connecting Solder-Lugs on Coil on Outhole-Relay (side wire-R-Y-W is soldered-on) with Coil on Tilt-Relay or Coil on Ball-Index-Relay (side wire-R-Y-W is soldered-on)" - then try again. Greetings Rolf

0Grand-Prix-Work-44 (resized).jpg
#27 3 months ago

Some new information that I had previously assumed. The ball will drain, count bonus and advance to the next ball if the right bonus unit is counting (ball 2). It will not do that for the left bonus unit (ball 1 and 3). I've cleaned all the switches and contacts on the unit and I've checked for broken wires. Everything seems to look ok. I did tighten a coil stop that was missing a screw and was loose but it still isnt working.

#28 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Yes. Loosen the screws on the stack and clean with swabs and 91# rubbing alcohol and/or 600# sandpaper. Swabs are good for getting rid of major crud first.

I cleaned all the switches in the stack, and it still isnt advancing after ball 1 or ball 3.

#29 3 months ago

Problem solved! It was this NC switch on the Left bonus relay. After figuring out that the Right Bonus unit worked and the Left bonus unit didn't, and knowing the conditions needed to energize the Outhole relay, I focused on the Bonus Unit first, then the next step was checking switches on the Bonus Relay. The contacts were together, but needed a good cleaning. There was no continuity on the switch lugs, even though there was continuity between the contacts. I thought it was weird. I took 600 grit sandpaper to the contacts, and cleaned them with 91% alcohol, and used the DMM to beep out on the switch lugs.

All is working now! Still not sure why it decided to stop working after I had finished my work on the drop targets. I guess I might have shifted the contacts just enough for the dirt and crud to work itself in between?

Thanks for the suggestions fellas!

L & R Bonus Relay (resized).jpg
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