(Topic ID: 183602)

William’s Grand Prix - One, three and four Player, but not two?

By unrared

2 years ago

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0Grand-Prix-Work-19 (resized).jpg
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#1 2 years ago

I've been slowly getting this machine up and running, but stumped on this particular issue. For 1, 3 or 4 players, the number of players indicator lights up for the respective number and advance the players correctly. Pressing the start button twice (which I would assume should be 2 players) causes none of those lights to be lit. Proceeding with a game in this mode appears to function as a 4 player game. From what I read, it sounded like this is a Coin Unit issue, so I cleaned the Coin Unit this evening but same results for a 2 player game. Anyone experienced this before?

#2 2 years ago

Could be a lose wire on the coin unit, the player reset does not work without a lead from it.
That could explain the behaviour.
So: check the wires making contact on the two players on the coin unit.

#3 2 years ago

Hmm, will take a look and check back. Thanks!

#4 2 years ago

Above worth checking ... but didn't break out my schematic and I am confused by your description
Correct me as I restate...

Coin in a bunch of credits-
Hit credit button and one player light is lit and game plays correctly for 1 player (3 or 5 ball)

New game - hit credit button three times- all is well for a three player game and player 1 2 and 3 lights alternate as ball drains and all players get correct number of balls...is the true.

New game- hit credit button 4 times- all is well- same thing as above with 4 players- all player lights work etc, game ends after ball 3 (or 5) for player 4. Is this true?

But.....if you hit credit button twice you get a four player game- but no player lights are lit? Is this really what happens? Is it really 12 balls (4x3) or 20 (4x5) and then game over. That seems unlikely- Can you confirm above and provide more detail about what precisely is happening with the 1 3 or 4 player game and exactly what the 2 player game does? Count balls, watch player lights etc.

#5 2 years ago

I actually solved the problem this evening, but I can't say for sure what was the culprit. I was being less than intelligent with some alligator clip leads which killed all the backbox lights. I ended up cleaning a couple relays and some switches, but my hunch is it was my sanding/de-oxing of the flat, multi-wire backbox connections to the cabinet circuitry that got it working. I realized I had blown a fuse after all of the work (I'm assuming when the backbox lights went out). After swapping the fuse, the 2-Player Game light was working for the first time ever. Also, the chimes are now triggering for things they weren't triggering on before. This game is loud, almost feel bad for my neighbors playing after 9!

For documentation sake, it was the 2-Player Game light that wasn't working (incremented by the Coin Unit Stepper) and in the case where it should have been lit, the game assumed it was in a 4-Player config (so 1,4,3 or 4 Players). The Player-Up lights were always working in every scenario.

At this point, the only remaining issues I am aware of are:

a) annoying buzzing when "Advances left bonus when lit" lamp is lit (pretty sure replacing the relay for it will solve)
b) 500 relay occasionally gets stuck in a long loop (cleaned relay switches, will monitor)
c) game over and 00/10/20/30, etc. lights have never lit (not sure how to approach these)

Thanks you both for your follow up on this!

#6 2 years ago

Good to hear you solve you two player light. For the other problems, a small tip:
b. For a good working counters clean your counters, because they are a part of the loop in series with your relays. If a 500-point relay gets stuck most of the time it will be a problem with the counters.
c. In the back there will be a Match unit. They are very fragile, and mostly are broken on the frame. If it is still working, you can manually operate them. If you have the machine in game over, you can test the lamps by turning the Match unit.

#7 2 years ago

Next time make sure the bulb isn't out too

#8 2 years ago

C). If the game is in extra ball mode, match lights will not work.

#9 2 years ago

I replaced all the bulbs that were not working a few weeks ago, so I don't think that is the problem with the game over / match lights. The 500 relay still does get stuck in a loop after fixing the 2 Player problem. Going to clean up some of the bonus advancing steppers today to see if that helps. Thanks again!

1 week later
#10 2 years ago

Well, I sanded and cleaned the left and right bonus advancing stepper rivets which fixed something that I didn't realize was a problem (now there is always chimes when advancing). Also, now the Game Over lights do light up at the end of a game. However, the main problem I was trying to solve still persists... the "500 point scoring loop". The loop occurs when hitting a particular switch on the right side of the table (see attached screenshot). Any other ideas what might be causing this issue?

Thanks again!

grand (resized).jpg

#11 2 years ago

Hi unrared
I am (Swiss) German speaking - what does "500 point scoring loop" means ?
The ball hits the target and You get five times hundred points - BUT it does not stop You get another "five times 100 points" and again and again - but always 5 times 100 points ?

You have marked in the picture "switch on the right" - question - when the ball hits on the left: Do You get the same fault ?

IF (if, if) the fault ONLY shows up "on the right": Most likely the playfield switch is no good. In the ipdb-schematics I see two switches mounted parallel - so the 500-Relay gets activated --- when ONLY ONE playfield switch causes the fault - I clue: Must be the playfield switch. Greetings Rolf

#12 2 years ago

Could be a too close contact on the score motor that releases the relay after the motorturn, or a nearly closed contact on the relay (closest to the relay, hold contact), or a bad spring on the relay.
Top contact on the sixth set on the motor, the one just before the score cams (last two).

1 week later
#13 2 years ago

rolf_martin_062, yes 100 points, appended five times with audible chime sound. I've never noticed the loop happen on the left side so that is interesting if its parallel as you say. Though, it could be we're just not hitting that side much. When I've tried to manually trigger the switch, I've never been able to cause a loop, so it doesn't seem like it's the switch, but rather some specific mid-game state that needs to happen before the switch ultimately triggers the loop.

wizardblom the score motor looked intimidating so I haven't touched it much up to this point. Will take a look next time I open her up.

Thanks both of you!

#14 2 years ago

I replaced some bulbs and the flipper mechs recently and noticed that now, simply firing up the machine and pressing the Start button causes the same "500" loop to kick off. I noticed the 500 Relay immediately changes to the active position and remains there. The same is the case for the advancing coil on the bonus stepper nearest to the flippers on the play-field. The coil pulls and remains in the active position. All the while, the chime box is maniacal. =)~

I did a minor cleaning of the relay contacts, the scoring motor contacts and the chime box connector but no dice. Plan to look closer at the scoring motor soon.

#15 2 years ago

Hi unrared
I want for the moment ONLY look at the 500-Relay problem. Here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1072/Williams_1976_Grand_Prix_Manual.pdf on page-32 (ori-30) - the Switch-A on the 500-Relay. This is the (JPG, encircled orange) Self-Hold-Switch. Toggle-off the pin and inspect this switch - OPEN when the relay is not pulling ? A drop of solder fallen at the short stubs with wires soldered-on - a drop of solder - making faulty connection ? short stub bent making faulty contact ?

Maybe the switch --- I believe in: ONE or both of the Playfield-Switches is faulty --- look for wire-color-brown-black / yellow. IF (if) You have mounted new rubbers: You may have bent the switch so it it always closed. Not only at the 500-relay-switch --- also on the playfield switches: Look for drop of solder / bent stub.

question for "troubleshooting Bonus problem": Coil A-22-550 ? Left ? or right ? or both ? Immediately starting or starting when the Outhole-RELAY pulls-in ? Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The Bridge Rectifier and the stuff connected to it: We do not need for the problem "500-Relay".

0Grand-Prix-Work-19 (resized).jpg

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