Dealer's Choice
Williams, 1974Ok so this machine is stuck in four player. I have checked all my switches twice. cleaned and lubed the coin unit, player unit and the ball count unit, all are good and set correctly. The one player through 4 player lights all come on when you press the start button the same amount of times. But it’s always in four player mode. Also the player reset relay will not engage at all. Please help.
If the player reset relay never fires, try cleaning the ball count unit one of stroke switch.
Added over 3 years ago:That should read end of stroke switch
If the Coin Unit reset solenoid doesn't activate during startup, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
pasted_image (resized).pngYou said in your first post that the Player Reset Relay wouldn't engage. If that's true, there are only 3 switches involved in turning or holding it on. In the snippet below, the Ball Count End of Stroke switch is supposed to energize that relay. The Player Reset Relay switch and motor index switch above it are the hold circuit to hold the relay on until the score motor switch opens to relax the relay. I'd check that E.O.S. switch on the Ball Count unit.
dealers choice player reset re. (resized).JPGpaulace just double checked the E.O.S on the ball count unit and cleaned it it’s set good, I just noticed that when you go from say ball one to ball two and so on, the player reset relay engages but does not hold. It does not pull in at all when you reset the whole game, it’s also still stuck in four player!
This problem with the player reset relay probably isn't your whole problem, but it doesn't sound like it's working the way it should. Did you check the locking switch on the player reset relay (R-BR / R-GR) and the M/B switch on the motor index that's involved with holding the relay energized? When it gets a signal to energize, it should stay that way until the motor gets back to its home position. The motor switch is the top one on the index cam - should be easy to see if it's working correctly or not.
DC index (resized).JPGQuoted from WOLF:also check the make/break switch on the player reset relay. It opens to step up and closes to reset the player unit.
Quoted from Berger88:WOLF do you have the schematic snipet for that
pasted_image (resized).pngpaulace ok so I checked all the switches they are all good. But I am unsure of the placement of some on the score motor. can you attach schematic schematic of the score motor as well as a picture from the front of a correct one I will attach a picture of what mine looks like as it sits now.
Berger88 - The schematic and instruction book is available at: https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=649
Halfway down the page, you'll see links to both. Just remember that the index cam is the one closest to the motor (on the left in your photos), and the other cams just go on out from there. Switches A, B, C, D etc. start at the bottom of the stack, closest to the cam, and go up.
Did you look at that M/B switch on the Player Reset Relay that WOLF mentioned above?
Ok so I found some switches that where out on the score motor and the two impulse stacks appeared to be out of time —hiting to early. So I fixed all that and now the back board will not reset and I have no flippers and none of the playfield works.
Fuses are good and all the lights are working.
Ok so I moved the two stacks back where they where when I got the game, now when the latch relay/end of game relay goes to engage to energize the playfield it blows the fuse as the game goes dark.
Ok so update the mid chime coil went out that’s why the fuses where blowing.
According to the schematic all the switches and relays are correct. But it’s still stuck in four player! The game plays great except is always in four player. If all the switches and relays are correct Could this be a timing issue with the score motor? Or is there something else I am missing?
Quoted from Berger88:HowardR so the one stays lit but it still cycles though all players and all balls. You can select 2-3 or 4 player and the proper light will engage, but it will cycle though all players. No matter what you do it is in four player all the time even if it says 1-2 player and so on.
Starting with the highlighted contacts and wipers on the Coin Unit disk, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngI've been looking at the schematic, and don't understand how the machine moves from player to player, or stays on 1 or 2 players. Does anyone out there feel like explaining how that function of the machine works? I know it's probably a long explanation, but it might help the op figure this out too.
Quoted from paulace:Does anyone out there feel like explaining how that function of the machine works?
Note: Numbers & letters in parentheses refer to locations on the schematic
https://www.ipdb.org/files/649/Williams_1973_Dealer_s_Choice_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf
D
Quoted from HowardR:Note: Numbers & letters in parentheses refer to locations on the schematic.
When the ball drains, it closes the Outhole switch which activates the Bonus relay (12.5E), which stays locked on through its hold switch
The Bonus relay runs the motor (4.5C), repeatedly activates the Bonus Reset solenoid (12E), and the 1000 Point relay (15.5C) & (15.5E)
When the Bonus stepper unit reaches zero, its Zero position wiper activates the Outhole relay (13E) and pulses the Bonus stepper unit StepUp solenoid (E12) once, leaving it on 1000 for the next player or ball.
A switch on the Outhole relay releases the Bonus relay (12.5E) and keeps the motor running (4.5E)
Depending on the current player, (in the Player stepper unit) (5.5D) and the number of players (in the Coin stepper unit) (5.5D):
If the current player is less than the number of players, a switch on the Outhole relay (6C) advances the Player unit StepUp solenoid (5.5E).
Or if the current player equals the number of players, that switch on the Outhole relay (6C) advances the Ball Count stepper StepUp solenoid.
The Ball Count unit EndOfStroke switch (6.5C) activates the Player Reset relay (7E)
A switch on the Player Reset relay (6D) activates the Player Unit stepper reset solenoidIf either paulace or OP Berger88 would like any more detail in a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.
Bravo for helping out this person, your patience is above board.
Thank you, HowardR - that's exactly what I was looking for - nice explanation. Very clever! So that combination of Player Unit and Coin Unit at 5.5D are the key to it - the Coin Unit tells how many players, and the Player Unit is determining which player you're on, if I understand it correctly.
So for the op's problem, as you've been pointing to, the Coin Unit would be the thing to look at since if it were stuck at the 4 player (coin) position, then he would see his machine's behavior, right?
Thanks for explaining!
Quoted from paulace:the Coin Unit tells how many players, and the Player Unit is determining which player you're on, if I understand it correctly.
Well said.
The Coin unit wiper and contacts is what to look at because power seems to never get through it.
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