(Topic ID: 317589)

Willams Dealer's Choice 1-9 bonus skips 2x bonus

By Crimcyan

1 year ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Crimcyan
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 1 year ago

I'm extremely new as this is one of the two first two pinball machines I picked up a few days ago.
I have been noticing a occasionally issue where completing the 1-9 roller overs once would register as completing it two times. Like if I were to complete 1-9 it would skip over double bonus and go to triple bonus. When this does happen I can see the double bonus light lit up for a second.
Any recommendations on where I should be looking?

Also does anyone know when the knocker is supposed to activate on here? Been searching around and cant find anything on it

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from Crimcyan:

Also does anyone know when the knocker is supposed to activate on here?

Hi Crimcyan , Welcome to pinside!!
The Knocker activates when the Replay Unit steps up, except when a coin has been inserted.

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#3 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Hi Crimcyan , Welcome to pinside!!
The Knocker activates when the Replay Unit steps up, except when a coin has been inserted.
[quoted image]

Thanks for the welcome, I noticed that my game has not been awarding free games instead just giving out 5000 points. I assume there is a adjustment I have to make to give out free games which should activate the knocker? Im going off a scanned instruction manual and some parts get a bit hard to read

Quick edit: so my guess was right there was a adjustment for activating free games. I just didn't know it was in the head while I was looking all over under the playfield for it.

#4 1 year ago

For that double/triple bonus problem. I'd probably start by checking the motor make/break switch 3C (red arrow). Check to see that the switch connected to the YEL and B-Y wires is open when the score motor is at rest (home position). The drawings of the score motor cams and switches on the lower left part of the schematic should help you locate the switch.

The circuit that turns on the triple bonus relay is highlighted in red below:
DC bonus stuff (resized).JPGDC bonus stuff (resized).JPG

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

For that double/triple bonus problem. I'd probably start by checking the motor make/break switch 3C (red arrow). Check to see that the switch connected to the YEL and B-Y wires is open when the score motor is at rest (home position). The drawings of the score motor cams and switches on the lower left part of the schematic should help you locate the switch.
The circuit that turns on the triple bonus relay is highlighted in red below:
[quoted image]

Thanks I'll look into there, do you happen to have a link to the schematic, I cant seem to find one nor own a manual with one. I kept going through 1-9 last night and couldn't get the issue to happen again so I'm wondering if there is a dirty contact

#7 1 year ago

I tried checking the 1-9 reset relay and it looked okay, after changing the game to replay mode rather than extra ball mode when the issue arises I found completing the 1-9 bonus once would go straight to triple and fire off the 1-9 special and award a few extra games. I had the issue happen twice last night, first time it fired off 5 free games, the second time 2 games.

Is there a way from looking at schematics to find where the relay locations would be on the game? My wires are a bit faded and dusty making it hard to identify with some of the id tags missing

#8 1 year ago

There's no physical correlation between where a relay (or any other component) is on a schematic, and where it is on the machine. When the machine is new, the relays are usually labeled, but of course over time, the paper labels may have fallen off or faded. In that case, you have to go by the number and type of switches on each relay, and wire colors if they're still readable to identify each relay.

The manual (here: https://www.ipdb.org/files/649/Williams_Dealer_s_Choice_manual.pdf) has nice drawings of each relay with its switches labeled starting on page 21. That's a nice thing about Williams manuals.

Did you check out that motor switch 3-C that I mentioned earlier? Do you know where it is?

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Did you check out that motor switch 3-C that I mentioned earlier? Do you know where it is?

Thought I did at first but im pretty sure now that I was looking at the completely wrong switch. I'll go through the manual and schematic more closely. EM stuff is being a bit more of a learning curve then I thought

#10 1 year ago

I don't know if this will help you understand or confuse you, but I'll explain why I thought the Motor 3-C switch might be a likely culprit for your problem. Besides, I'm bored and enjoy drawing pictures.

**Remember that as the score motor rotates through its half-turn cycle, the switches on it change state in order - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 because the notches on the cams are staggered that way.**

So here's maybe more of an explanation than you want - or maybe it will help:

*************************************************************

FIRST TIME ALL 9 SWITCHES ARE COMPLETED (Achieves Double Bonus)

- No. 1 thru 9 latching relay switches (pic 1) are now closed, so “1-9 Reset Relay” is energized through the Motor Index switch and locks in thru green circuit.

- A switch on “1 to 9 Reset Relay” starts the score motor, which rotates half a turn.

- When the score motor closes motor switch 3A (pic 3), the “1 to 9 Bank Reset” coil fires, resetting (opening) all 1-9 relay switches. “1-9 Reset Relay” is still locked through green circuit below, though.

- “1 to 9 Reset Relay” switch in orange (pic 2) is now closed, so when the score motor closes motor switch 4A, the “Double Bonus Relay” is energized and locks in through “Outhole Relay” m/b switch, so it stays energized. This means that the “Double Bonus Relay” switch in red (pic 2) is now closed.

- As score motor continues to rotate, motor switch 5C (in green circuit below) opens to turn off the “1 to 9 Reset Relay”.

************************************************************

SECOND TIME ALL 9 SWITCHES ARE COMPLETED (Achieves Triple Bonus)

- No. 1 thru 9 latching relay switches (pic 1) are now closed, so “1-9 Reset Relay” is energized and locks in thru green circuit.

- A switch on 1 to 9 Reset Relay starts score motor, which rotates half a turn.

- Red “1 to 9 Reset Relay” and “Double Bonus Relay” switches are both closed now (pic. 2), so when score motor closes motor switch 3C, the Triple Bonus Relay is energized. It locks on through Outhole Relay switch.

- At almost the same time, a switch at Motor 3A (pic 3) resets all the 1-9 switches to open again.

The "Double Bonus Relay" and "Triple Bonus Relay" remain energized until the "Outhole Relay" fires, which releases them.

*******************************************************************

The reason I thought that your problem might be caused by that Motor 3-C switch in pic 2 being closed is that that switch is in series with the 2 switches that energize the "Triple Bonus Relay" coil. Those 2 switches both are closed when the "Double Bonus Relay" coil fires, so that would fire your "Triple Bonus Relay" coil as well if that Motor 3-C switch were closed or shorted.

Now that I've written all that, it'll probably wind up being something else....but I think it's a good starting point.

DC pic 1 (resized).jpgDC pic 1 (resized).jpgDC pic 2 (resized).jpgDC pic 2 (resized).jpgDC pic 3 (resized).jpgDC pic 3 (resized).jpg

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

I don't know if this will help you understand or confuse you, but I'll explain why I thought the Motor 3-C switch might be a likely culprit for your problem. Besides, I'm bored and enjoy drawing pictures.
**Remember that as the score motor rotates through its half-turn cycle, the switches on it change state in order - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 because the notches on the cams are staggered that way.**
So here's maybe more of an explanation than you want - or maybe it will help:
*************************************************************
FIRST TIME ALL 9 SWITCHES ARE COMPLETED (Achieves Double Bonus)
- No. 1 thru 9 latching relay switches (pic 1) are now closed, so “1-9 Reset Relay” is energized through the Motor Index switch and locks in thru green circuit.
- A switch on “1 to 9 Reset Relay” starts the score motor, which rotates half a turn.
- When the score motor closes motor switch 3A (pic 3), the “1 to 9 Bank Reset” coil fires, resetting (opening) all 1-9 relay switches. “1-9 Reset Relay” is still locked through green circuit below, though.
- “1 to 9 Reset Relay” switch in orange (pic 2) is now closed, so when the score motor closes motor switch 4A, the “Double Bonus Relay” is energized and locks in through “Outhole Relay” m/b switch, so it stays energized. This means that the “Double Bonus Relay” switch in red (pic 2) is now closed.
- As score motor continues to rotate, motor switch 5C (in green circuit below) opens to turn off the “1 to 9 Reset Relay”.
************************************************************
SECOND TIME ALL 9 SWITCHES ARE COMPLETED (Achieves Triple Bonus)
- No. 1 thru 9 latching relay switches (pic 1) are now closed, so “1-9 Reset Relay” is energized and locks in thru green circuit.
- A switch on 1 to 9 Reset Relay starts score motor, which rotates half a turn.
- Red “1 to 9 Reset Relay” and “Double Bonus Relay” switches are both closed now (pic. 2), so when score motor closes motor switch 3C, the Triple Bonus Relay is energized. It locks on through Outhole Relay switch.
- At almost the same time, a switch at Motor 3A (pic 3) resets all the 1-9 switches to open again.
The "Double Bonus Relay" and "Triple Bonus Relay" remain energized until the "Outhole Relay" fires, which releases them.
*******************************************************************
The reason I thought that your problem might be caused by that Motor 3-C switch in pic 2 being closed is that that switch is in series with the 2 switches that energize the "Triple Bonus Relay" coil. Those 2 switches both are closed when the "Double Bonus Relay" coil fires, so that would fire your "Triple Bonus Relay" coil as well if that Motor 3-C switch were closed or shorted.
Now that I've written all that, it'll probably wind up being something else....but I think it's a good starting point.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Thanks for going through all that I've been way too busy the past couple days to really look at the issue but I have been reading this and going through the schematic pictures that I am starting to understand. When I get the chance to I'll go through that switch bank, check gaps, contacts and the wires coming off it to make sure there is no short on it. With the issue being very intermittent I'm starting to think something around 3-C is slightly to close to where vibrations are causing the issue.

#12 1 year ago

Yeah, that can happen - a switch can have the contacts so close that vibrations in other parts of the machine can close them temporarily. Easy enough to fix - the trick is finding the right contacts.

#13 1 year ago

I was looking a bit over the score motor and most contacts through out it are looking pretty dirty and oxidized. The previous owner said the last time the rubbers were replaced were 10 years ago so I'm thinking it might be time to pull up a guide and overhaul the score motor to clean and adjust contacts as who knows when the last time or if its ever been cleaned up.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Crimcyan:

t might be time to pull up a guide and overhaul the score motor to clean and adjust contacts

Don't do this unless you're sure you know what you're doing.
What I recommend instead for EM beginners: Slowly and carefully diagnose one problem at a time and then fix only that.

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean

#15 1 year ago

Yeah, what Howard said - you can cause yourself all sorts of hard-to-diagnose problems if you mess up your score motor switches.

I think with those Willliams score motors, you can unscrew the bottom of the frame from the bottom board and lift the score motor enough to see the switches pretty well. You can carefully turn the score motor by hand and see if the switches are opening/closing as they should, and clean them if necessary. Just be careful.

#16 1 year ago

I do agree with potentially messing up stuff but the more I play this one the more issues seem to keep appearing, now when completing 1-9 for the first time it sometimes lights up the extra ball lane or gives me a extra ball. So it almost seems due to be gone over. I dont think I plan on pulling the bottom board to check the score motor for awhile now since I'm going have to move it to a new room in a few months plus I still have soild state machine I bought with this one that I still need to check over.

For now I'll just stick with adjusting the simple contacts on the playfield as quite a bit are far to gapped or dirty so they wont activate consistently.

I dont really mind having to work on this EM as I mostly got into pinball after learning to fix handheld game consoles so I wanted to learn to fix something a bit bigger. My main issue is just following schematics to find issues which even when being mechanic I try to avoid electrical schematics as much as I can but I guess it's time to start learning

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