(Topic ID: 168276)

Will this be the death of mechanical pinball?


By Davidus56

3 years ago



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  • 244 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by klr650
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    There are 244 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 5.
    #151 3 years ago

    Sadsack, you nailed it, in the butt. Sad.

    #152 3 years ago
    Quoted from selektor6:

    Look what happened to bingo machines. They disappeared. Or did they? Nick Baldridge at for amusement only is giving them a digital facelift. And that might be necessary for them to survive at all.

    Thanks for this.

    Real bingo pinball will always have a place in history and in my gameroom. For those that don't know, one of the reasons I started that project was because of the limitations of virtual pinball... I am using real hardware and replacing the backglass and logic with solid state tech. The playfield, motors and other EM components (like knocker/bell/replay register) do remain. Plenty of eye-watering detail in the Multi-Bingo thread.

    Quoted from Homepin:

    Bingo machines disappeared because they were GAMBLING machines - no other reason - and while they were at it they destroyed the credibility of genuine pinball at that time.

    To be fair, 'genuine' pinball was wholly tied up with gambling as well - from the early payout machines in the 1930s all the way up to the one balls of the 40s, bingos of 50s-80s, and even flipper pinball today.

    Gambling on any competitive game is something that will happen. Look at today's pinball players - dollar games are commonplace, and are just as much gambling as any bingo. In fact, since no bingo in my gameroom pays off, I'd say flipper pinball machines are more of a gambling game than my bingos (today).

    If you think about it; a bingo pinball machine requires skill and precision to actually win on, much like a flipper pinball machine (as Roger Sharpe proved in '76). Yes, it's possible to move, nudge, and influence the outcome of the ball on a bingo pinball machine (sadly, this is still one of the most common questions I’m asked). Yes, the machine does auto-portion if you win. Yes, it also auto-portions if you lose. This does not change the base gameplay, however. It only influences how frequently you might earn a feature or odds increase for your nickel. Similar things also take place in flipper pinball – such as auto-portioning for replay scores and auto-portioning for match percentage. With all these similarities, I think we might need to start looking at bingo pinball in a different light.

    I'm sorry that things went down the way they did in 1951-1963 (when the Johnson Act was amended). I'm sorry that many localities decided that 'to protect the children', they needed to kill all pinball. This is the same witch hunt behavior exhibited with each new amusement device. It happened with video games (which you can gamble on) and it also happened with console games (which you can also gamble on).

    The bingos, though you can earn hundreds of replays, don't have to pay off. In fact, it was much more common for this to be an 'under-the-counter' thing. If you didn't have someone vouch for you or know the owner or whatever, you couldn't get paid. You could just play.

    Back to the topic at hand - I withhold judgement on VR until I actually get to try it! Haven't yet. I think it could be neat, but I don't see it completely replacing mechanical pinball. At least for me. But I love the mechanical nature, troubleshooting circuitry (especially EM) and simply moving around a steel ball. The lights, sounds, feel has always fascinated me, and it will be hard to completely replicate - at least based on my current understanding of VR.

    #153 3 years ago

    Hi Davidus
    In Your post-1: "... watched in awe ... like spiders bots climbing on the sides and top". Reminds me of gimmicks on SS-pins: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=570&picno=10433 (it really vibrates), http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=570&picno=10427 (must have ?) , http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=753&picno=56335 (great, machine shakes at certain times - absolutely needed) , http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=4983&picno=21662 (I like to to hear him when I play my turntable, vinyls) --- my "usual question (flippant, snappy, sniffy, (schnippisch)": At some time --- I may PLAY pinball ?
    http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=948&picno=32262 (hmm) , http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=6156&picno=63253 (again).

    "mswhat" in his post-5: " ... nuances ... gameplay" - and the fun (example): http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2091&picno=37424&zoom=1 , http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=820&picno=9978&zoom=1 , http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=18351

    Beeing an "nostalgic" in EM-Pins: Lets hope "VR" is the death of "SS-Pinball" (because into ONE VR we easily can pack-in some 50 SS pins), greetings Rolf

    #154 3 years ago

    As the last ancient pinhead dies clutching his HUO GBLE, he raises a dusty fist and says "kids these days!!!" before committing himself and the last known mechanical pin to the soil, requiescat in pace viverent quae facientes longdus globorum.

    -1
    #155 3 years ago

    The insane prices are out of hand on pinball...."market can bare blah,blah,blah".
    I saw 2 boxes of beanie babies at an antique store and the guy working there said "these used to be worth a lot of money".
    VR will obviously be a less expensive,no maintenance version of pinball.

    #157 3 years ago

    This may answer your original question.... I also love playing PinballFX VR on my Oculus Rift CV1, so much so that I built a pinball controller to emulate the front portion of a pinball machine, buttons and plunger and all. However, I just got back from picking up another pinball machine in real life. They can both co-exist.

    #158 3 years ago
    Quoted from swar:

    Steve seems to be enjoying himself.

    Coming soon to a Stern retailer near you, the Stern Pinball oculus pinball controller. Only $599!

    #159 3 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    Coming soon to a Stern retailer near you, the Stern Pinball oculus pinball controller. Only $599!

    Probably $2599

    #160 3 years ago

    Scene is actually quite plausible. Head track the player and render the playfield to match perspective.

    It would have part of the same "isolation" problem VR does, where anyone but the player would just see rubbish, one good example is 3D street art:

    http://twistedsifter.com/2011/11/3d-sidewalk-art-lego-terracotta-warriors/

    But it would be cheaper, allow cool effects like Zen games, and NEVER BREAK.

    #161 3 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    Head track the player and render the playfield to match perspective

    Future Pinball has had the Bam plugin for over 3 years now using head tracking with something as simple as a pair of webcams (or one xbox kinnect):

    This is a better demo (showing 2d, then 3d turning on IR emitters)

    This is the perfect case for 3d pinball. Playing a game like he-man that will likely never get made anytime soon, in a 3d looking environment.

    #162 3 years ago

    Consumer products like Oculus Rift and HTC Vive include cameras, head tracking, laser scanners and motion controls.

    They're considered expensive by the gaming community at $600 and $800, but those amounts are CHICKEN FEED in the pinball world.

    Pinflation has created an enormous "undercut opportunity" where a device like "3D pinball" could be made with all top-flight components (3x 120Hz cameras, i7 processor, 4k screen) and STILL be less than even a Stern Pro.

    #163 3 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    Consumer products like Oculus Rift and HTC Vive include cameras, head tracking, laser scanners and motion controls.
    They're considered expensive by the gaming community at $600 and $800, but those amounts are CHICKEN FEED in the pinball world.

    Not to mention they just came out. The price of VR will be chicken feed for everyone in the not to distant future.

    #164 3 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    Consumer products like Oculus Rift and HTC Vive include cameras, head tracking, laser scanners and motion controls.
    They're considered expensive by the gaming community at $600 and $800, but those amounts are CHICKEN FEED in the pinball world.
    Pinflation has created an enormous "undercut opportunity" where a device like "3D pinball" could be made with all top-flight components (3x 120Hz cameras, i7 processor, 4k screen) and STILL be less than even a Stern Pro.

    Yep...even older machines maintenance...I have to buy a new driver board and mpu...400.00 to get my Embrion back up. Mars God of War I've spent over 500.00 not to mention the initial cost....I didn't spend that much to build my vpin. And I got bam working on it to add a new dimension thanks to this thread.
    I love pinball. But I love digital pinball due to cost, availability, and endless possibilities in game play. PBFX2 is great fun

    #165 3 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    Coming soon to a Stern retailer near you, the Stern Pinball oculus pinball controller. Only $599!

    $10K by Christmas.

    2 months later
    #166 2 years ago

    I also played pinball in VR and for me it feels already very impressive. If you take a REAL cabinet, put flipperfingers, Slingshots, a few bumpers and upkickers on a naked playfield you can simulate any pinball machine. Of course you need the software which activates all the mechanical stuff. The visuals come from VR and the mechanical feel you have 1 because your standing on a "real" pinball machine with real mechanics. So if the VR glasses have fotorealistic graphics and more realistic physics you won’t feel a lot of a difference. The only thing which is not simulated then is the ball roll. But maybe with a very little bit of playfield vibration i could be also simulated. Of course it’ll take a few years till we are there.

    #167 2 years ago

    sooner or later we'll get there. sooner or later, according to Ray Kurzweil and others, we will spend most of our time in virtual environments. ..Probably we just have to worry about the present times
    Or, I mean, if you think/worry about the impact VR can have on pinball, then you should also think/worry about the impact it will have on many other things. Surely it's going to be a progressive pattern, requiring more and more technological advances for increasingly difficult simulations. Perfectly (or almost) simulating a pinball game is probably less complicated than many other things, so it's going to happen earlier than other type of simulations.
    The point is: how much better will the real thing be compared to the future high-tech simulation? If it's going to be 5% better, than I guess most people will move to VR: no maintenance, low cost. If the difference is going to be like 30% better, than I guess most people will stick to the real thing. It's too early to say, but I guess there will be a threshold point where it will not be worthed anymore to stick to a real pinball machine. There will be several versions of VRs, until we get to this threshold point.

    #168 2 years ago

    In Japan, women are being replaced with sexbots. In 50 years the gene lines of men who prefer robots to women will be severely diminished. In the meantime:

    The world belongs to those who reject the virtual for the real. I relish the opportunity to scoop up on all those big heavy boxes of lights and wires.

    #169 2 years ago

    excellent!!

    #170 2 years ago

    Nah.. pinball is real. Always will be.. younger generations of people are getting into it wich is cool.. my gals son diggs the pinns more then video... I don't think the lure will ever die out.

    #171 2 years ago

    The one thing currently missing from virtual reality is interaction. It's fine if you're by yourself, but part of the fun of pinball is watching others play. A second monitor would help (so they see how you're playing). I know some VR software is trying to build realtime avatars of others in VR space.

    #172 2 years ago

    Skipped over most of the posts, but I was impressed with VR pinball. I'm not willing to sell any of my machines to fund one, but there is potential there. I also really want to see what they could do with a game like Big Buck Hunter. It seems like that could be a fantastic experience. Shove a few ice cubes down your shorts and adjust the settings so zero deer show up and they'll replicate real hunting. Seriously though I think rail shooters could really make a comeback with VR.

    #173 2 years ago

    I'm currently in the process of building a virtual reality pinball setup to be used with my Oculus Rift. I tried out Pinball FX2 a couple weeks ago in the Rift and have been extremely impressed. Full size virtual pinball cabinets have always felt off to me to the point that I don't think they are worth it. However, I'm sold on VR pinball. Its immersive, very high quality (will only get better) and all in 3D video as well as sound.

    Pinball Arcade is still coming to the Oculus Rift according to Farsight, for now Pinball FX2 is the only official VR pinball game released but damn its good.

    The cost of the entire setup including my PC which is on the higher end side is probably around $2500.

    I'll post some info and pics on the VR cabinet controller I'm making once its done. The cabinet for mine was built by someone local who builds professional looking pinball and arcade cabinets, its exactly made to the specs of the first 10 inches or so of a real pinball cabinet.

    For now heres an example of what someone else did. I plan to use mine as a VR Mame controller as well.

    87750-pinsimv2_1-2 (resized).jpg

    #174 2 years ago

    I'm sure there is a reason, but why legs versus a wall mount? Do you have tilt sensors?

    #175 2 years ago
    Quoted from lpeters82:

    I'm sure there is a reason, but why legs versus a wall mount? Do you have tilt sensors?

    Thats a good idea as well and would help save space. I want to be able to move mine around if I need to and figured I could move it in front of a TV for other arcade games if I choose to.

    I'm going a bit crazy with my setup. Adding a coin door, lockdown bar, side rails, metal legs, and trying my best to do a nice paint job for it. The new cabinet parts I ordered are going on a real pinball machine and I'm putting the ones I pulled off on the VR pin controller.

    I will be using an accelerometer board for nudging.

    #176 2 years ago

    I can see VR being a perfect tradeoff for several pins I'd kind-of-sort-of like to own, but not really keen on owning due to price/space/etc.

    VR will *never* replace the real thing though ... I simply can't see that happening ... that's not to say it won't, but I highly doubt it.

    Something that could be integrated into a pin that'd be kind of slick (I think) would be augmented reality ... check out CastAR and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about if you haven't heard about it already.

    1 week later
    #177 2 years ago

    A simpler analogy for comparison for the masses:

    Virtual pinball like a comparison with person who prefers a "real doll" over a proper girlfriend. It is not the same, not fulfilling, and does not work right.

    #178 2 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Thats a good idea as well and would help save space. I want to be able to move mine around if I need to and figured I could move it in front of a TV for other arcade games if I choose to.
    I'm going a bit crazy with my setup. Adding a coin door, lockdown bar, side rails, metal legs, and trying my best to do a nice paint job for it. The new cabinet parts I ordered are going on a real pinball machine and I'm putting the ones I pulled off on the VR pin controller.
    I will be using an accelerometer board for nudging.

    Any coils/force feedback in that cabinet? For me, that's the remaining gap with VR anything.

    I am totally on board with VR Pinball, but only to augment with machines I could never own IRL. Assembling a capable PC rig at the moment.

    #179 2 years ago

    Nope! Excellent example of a thread the should be drained! Which I shall do now, bye bye.

    #180 2 years ago

    I didn't bother to read this whole thread, because I don't really care that much. But to me, those video pinballs are totally worthless. Nothing like real pinball. I wouldn't take one for free if someone gave it to me, because I wouldn't want to waste the space that a real pinball could take up. I've tried them and I hate them! But to each his own. If someone else loves them, have at it. Just don't try to trade it in on something I have....I value them LESS than zero!

    #181 2 years ago

    Davidus56:

    Did you really think this was a good question to ask on a PINBALL forum? I happen to think there will be some cool VR pinball tables made and such, but I doubt it replaces the real thing. More likely is that the real thing dies off in 50-100 years. That is more likely.

    #183 2 years ago

    As the current generation of pinball owners ages the younger digital generation will have significantly less interest in owning 300 pound toys.

    #184 2 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I agree that VR pinball won't be a replacement for real pinball, but VR/AR doesn't seem like a fad. Maybe a stepping stone to better tech, but not a fad.
    VR for PS4 launches Oct 5th.
    MSFT has been pouring money and time into the HoloLens.

    Stepping stone , yes . I don't think I'll see people wearing phones on their faces for too long , but I could be wrong . As for VR pinball I would rather have one real game than a VR system that could house a million different games . It is not the same and I don't think it ever will be .

    #185 2 years ago
    Quoted from kmoore88:

    As the current generation of pinball owners ages the younger digital generation will have significantly less interest in owning 300 pound toys.

    I don't know if that's the case. Take a look at heavy vinyl records. Baby boomers dropped vinyl for CDs but now young hipsters proudly display their 12" collection.

    I'm sure plenty of people in the future will say things like "yes virtual gaming is fun and convenient, but I love the weight and feel of a real machine..."

    For what it's worth I've been following the rebirth of VR since the Oculus Kickstarter and have bought a few of them to mess around with. There's still a long way to go for VR to take over. Once the novelty wears off you're generally left thinking "please take this silly thing off my head..."

    #186 2 years ago

    I firmly believe VR is a fad and pinball will outlive it.

    Still, some sort of head tracking virtual cab that feels like the real thing could offer serious competition to very expensive mechanical machines.

    #187 2 years ago

    The reason I play pinball and am in this hobby, and spend as much as I do for real mechanical action machines- is because it is NOT a video game. In today's world, everything is virtual or games on phones, consoles, etc.

    To me, the best part of pinball is the fact the machine contains a playfield of intricately designed mechanical pieces, lighting, etc. The ball itself and the actual geometry of how the ball itself rolls and plays could never be mimicked and trick my brain into making it feel real.

    Bricking a shot on a real machine and seeing it fly upwards and smack the glass, or fly onto a metal ramp and say WTF! is all part of the reason I love pinball. Ive always hated playing video game versions as it felt like a racing simulation versus driving the real car. Screw that.

    It's like me selling my McLaren that's sitting in the garage because I can build a sweet gaming rig with a steering wheel setup, mechanical hydraulic racing chair, and VR setup and replace tracking my car.

    That will never happen in my world..

    #188 2 years ago

    Virtual what?

    #189 2 years ago

    VR pinball will not replace real pinball for the same reasons
    MAME did not kill off arcade video game collecting. But there
    is a market and place for these sorts of things.
    Steve

    #190 2 years ago

    I think this will be ok,you tech folk can play this stuff and the real thing will again be cheaper to buy!! No more $8000.-9000.You will be paying that much for your game, with no moving parts,nothing to wear out,no mods,not pinball!! But it will be all yours young Man!!!

    #191 2 years ago

    Apparently the Stern pinball arcade has just as many issues as the real thing. I've heard the cannon isn't working, and someone posted a stucky ball less than 24 hours after it dropped:

    15697174_10154776822969882_5954354284038821530_n (resized).jpg

    #192 2 years ago
    Quoted from kmoore88:

    As the current generation of pinball owners ages the younger digital generation will have significantly less interest in owning 300 pound toys.

    Something to ponder:

    Why are there 750+ real pinball machines in the greater Portland area (less than 25 square miles)?
    Why are there 1000s of younger generation people (less than the age of 25) who play the games with the extreme desire to own one?

    They constantly dream of having one for their home.
    The interest does not seem to be fading.
    Prices here for used machines is higher than many parts of the country.
    They may not be able to afford them now, but they are aspiring.
    The thing that sets some part is the inability to repair anything in a "throw away" digital world.
    Generally, once they make disposable income, they actual join the hobby, even if they own only one machine.

    I do understand that the PNW is a "hotspot" for pinball, but it is not entirely a fluke.
    There are also a huge heavy number of collectors here, but not anywhere near as high as certain parts of CA and IL.

    #193 2 years ago

    If VR pinball lowers the price of entry and increases the fan base... great! It will be good for the pinball hobby as a whole. It's not an either/or thing. The pinball pie just gets bigger for everyone.

    (now summoning my inner Alan Watts)

    By now you've probably noticed the increasing number of video screens which have been steadily consuming "real" things and experiences for years. Things like restaurant menus, billboards, airplane arrivals/departures, car navigation, and of course our ubiquitous smartphones which serve as the master key to this digital frontier. And yet, ironically... the more we delegate to virtualization... the more important reality becomes as we take it for granted.

    Many world religions acknowledge that even their best sculptures, paintings, and writings are "tainted by imperfection" relative to the goal of translating what they consider divine. In other words, virtual reality will only ever be as good as those who create it. It will never trump direct experience... which we all seem to know and appreciate as we leave the movie theater to draw a breath in the open air outside.

    One of the reasons I collect and restore EM's is because they are such a huge middle finger to this shrinking world of digitalization. Classic pinball is a shrine to "glorious maximalism"... beautiful, large, and impractical. All of those reassuring clicks, clacks, bells, and buzzes crackle like an electric campfire to gather around and engage others casually. If for only a moment.

    Sitting in your home, alone, with goggles on might eventually simulate the noises and gameplay of an EM well enough... but in my experience if you are a pinball owner, you are also a pinball mechanic, and there's a little magic in that manual knowledge which translates through the machine into the experiences of others. "Real" pinball is where it all comes together.

    Still, I say bring on the VR games. More pinball is more pinball.

    #194 2 years ago

    Who knows what the future holds. With computing power increasing at its current rate hell we will all be vring something in ththe future. Love my games. Have never considered a simulated pinbal table but am going to make damn sure that I play one next time I see one just to learn more about it and the feel of it or lack thereof.

    Ok. Off to the Holodeck

    #195 2 years ago

    VR won't kill pinball, just like digital hasn't killed vinyl records. There will always be a niche market for it (yes we are a niche market). That being said VR isn't a fad either. VR is for doing things you can't do in reality; not replacing what can be done. VR will be for experiences you can't normally have.

    #196 2 years ago

    Nothing can replace a real pinball machine. It never will.

    With that being said, there is room for VR pinball in this hobby. It is not a threat to the real thing, only a substitution. It is like one of those electronic cigarettes (refer to picture example), it helps with the craving and will get me by until I can get my hands on the real thing.

    Pinball is dead where I live. There are no sited pins here and I may never get the opportunity to play some of the classics. VR pinball will give me the opportunity to try them out. Get a feel for the rules and gameplay. Then when I am ready to part with my hard earned $5000-$10,000 I will be more confident I've made the right decision. (Pins are more expensive here than some other parts of the world)

    I have the Oculus Rift CV1 and I built a dedicated VR pinball controller (refer to picture) It has a working plunger, it registers nudge/tilt and it weighs a ton, adding to the sense I am holding the real thing when in VR. Until you have tried pinball in the Rift, I urge people to reserve judgement. It is pretty good now, and like the OP said, in five years will be fantastic, especially when using a dedicated controller like I ( and many others) have built.

    It will never replace the real thing, but it is a good substitute for those of us that can't get their hands on the real deal.

    IMG_0688 (resized).JPG

    IMG_0534 (resized).JPG

    #197 2 years ago

    Virtual pinball is a video game that I have no interest in. I like the real deal.

    #198 2 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    I firmly believe VR is a fad and pinball will outlive it.
    Still, some sort of head tracking virtual cab that feels like the real thing could offer serious competition to very expensive mechanical machines.

    BAM better arcade mode!
    see video around 1.50
    headtracking wit xbox cinect cam on a pc

    #199 2 years ago

    Take it from someone who has designed both: no.

    What it *can* do though is open up new design avenues in making the transition from one to the other.

    #200 2 years ago
    Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

    Take it from someone who has designed both: no.
    What it *can* do though is open up new design avenues in making the transition from one to the other.

    You've designed VR pinball? Not much content out there right now. I would love to see it.

    I have Zacarria and Pinball Arcade VR on my HTC Vive. It's cool, but has along way to go still. I want to see games designed specifically for VR though, not converted. Modes that trigger FPV inside the game would be a cool feature IMO. So many possibilities.

    I agree that this wont replace real pinball, but I bet most that have chimed in on the subject have never put a true VR headset on. Although it's early tech, my first time putting it on was like "Wow, in 15 years kids will be like you used a joystick and keyboard?" It really is revolutionary in my opinion.

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