I won't buy a pro if an le was made in the game lineup. Maybe if it costs 1/2 of on le, but not more than that.

I don't think so. Even the regular customer base has a budget and they too will still buy Pros. But the operators are there to make money and do not need to worry about that at all. An LE owner is not on location feeding quarters its a person who is not buying one. And if I am out drinking and want to play I don't care about game play differences.
Stern makes PROs for a healthy European and slowing US operator market. Additionally they are making LES for a smaller but good home buyer market that is now emerging. Its not the bread and butter though.

In the case of AC/DC I think the pro version would only be worth about 1/2 the value of the LE Version, with the premium version being somewhere closer to the LE. Having differing game play for different versions is unfortunate, and it will hurt the cost of the pro versions affected.

Tom

We are talking about the Operators here not the home buyers. And yes as a home buyer I have the Premium AC/DC but AV8 who has both and others will tell you the Pro is fun.

The point is operators have value in the Pro because its cheaper and they are in it to make money and have less stuff to fix.

Thats a good point. But with LEs sold out many games will still sell. I do agree that they need to keep game play in line though. I would want to see an example maybe be with the Xmen. Maybe have posts that pop up vs cool toys etc. More of a finish and higher quality thing than different play.

Already happened around here. Last new Stern on route is Rolling Stones. They used to buy at least one of every new pin otherwise.

Everyone is instead now waiting for Wizard of Oz, at least around here. Supposedly, there are a LOT (compared to usual) of those going on route.

Imo Stern is killing the operator market.
A few years ago Stern didnt care about homeowners and only about operators.
Now they turned around completely. They charge a lot for LE versions and now make good money on that.
Resale value of pro models will probably tank as collectors aren't interested in them as their gameplay is too limited. Once operators see that they can't make a profit anymore (earnings on route + resale value becomes too low) they stop operating pins..

The collectors bitch about cheapened machines do the LE sales model handles that. The pro hits their cost cutting. I think it's a great business model.

Uh.....

where is the option for "No"?

What's their "core business"? I thought it was selling pinball machines. Whether to ops or home collectors.

Doesn't seem that they've been having problems selling pins in the last year.

Wasn't Jack one of the people that encouraged Stern to do LE's, specifically LOTR? Now they are doing more LE's, and still people bitch. You are never going to make everyone happy.

^^lol, did Gary write this poll?

Add another No

How do you know it'll have "so much more"?

IMO, having played the LE Transformers, I'd take the Pro version. The starscream ramp is clunky and the Ironhide playfield is a POS.
Not played the AC/DC LE or premium version but played the Pro and it seemed like an ok game. I think it'll depend on the game in question.
Currently I am getting a Tron Pro and am not that fussed about the LE, I can live without the drop targets and the B.S. moving recogniser and there's plenty of mods to make it a little more special.

But that's not what I want!

Are operators still buying games? Can't imagine dropping 6-7k nib, so you can make 20-40 bucks a week.

I think the pro's are usually better. LE's can be overkill. Sometimes less is more. Not everyone likes the extra stuff.

Lets just say this with no pro means no stern....with the euro dropping there this question might not matter because if europe drops Stern stern goes under. They cannot stay open on us le sales alone.

I played both Premium and Pro versions of AC/DC at Pinburgh. While the Premium version was absolutely beautiful to look at, I liked how the Pro played better, and at the end of the day couldn't justify paying $2K more for the premium. So I bought the Pro, put some LEDs in, will add better speakers, and I'm having a great time.

It's hard to say whether a game will hold it's value, but there will be plenty of people like me who say, "I want an AC/DC, but I can't afford or don't think the premium is worth X amount more".

Only time will tell.

That model sucks also. The LE is designed from the ground up with more expensive game play features. If you had to limit your design to features that could also be in the pro then you're back to getting games like BBH and TRS. Also, the significant differences make the LE hold value better - which is critical for a lot of the investor market. The ops aren't as interested in holding value as they are in the machine paying off and making profit. Historically, routed sterns don't hold their value well. I doubt it will be much different here.

I wish people would quit complaining about sterns business model. New pinball machines by jjp are $6500 or so. They have no pro. This is equivalent to the stern LE in feature / price or that's how it's positioned. So maybe you should also be upset that jjp isn't making a $4500 machine?

Agreed. The extra stuff has a "cool factor", and don't get me wrong, I usually love the extra stuff, but there's usually a big price difference that rationally is hard to justify. I'm just a baller on a budget.

Yah, I'm not sure how many OPS you know or have talked to on this subject.

The last game I bought from an OP, was Twilight Zone, and I purchased it last year. So, released in 1993, the game was 18 years old when I bought it. We can assume that the pin made 'x' amount over it's life on location, probably paying itself off in 2, maybe 3 years, with the rest gravy. He sold it to me for more than he purchased NIB.

Did he sell it after it was paid off? No, he left it out to earn. The majority of OPS make their money a quarter at a time. They are not pin 'flippers'. They do not have the mindset of "Hey, once this thing is paid off, I'll sell it for big $$$ so I can grab the latest MIB 8 pin!"

Most OPS I know leave pins out earning until they are falling apart. Literally.

I know 0 OPS that are wanting to plunk down 8K on a machine. I know I certainly won't! When I buy my XMen LE, it will go into my home, not my route. My TRON Pro? I put out on route.

I think if Stern got rid of the Pro's/LE's and went middle ground (say 6k NIB model), many OPS would not buy new pins period. They are already not liking shelling out 5K for Pro's.

That's my fifty cents worth. And is only my opinion.

First, there are very few operators left.

I still speak to a few of them and Crane Games and Golden Tee make more money than pinball does.
\

Second, only recently would anyone expect to get any sizable return on a pinball that is no longer earning.

Normally, when a game was worn out and a new game would give a better return, you would take the game to the monthly auction and get $200-300 for it.
/

Since the LEs are thousands of dollars more than the Pros, most operators are not going to be thrilled about adding another year to the "break even" point.

Pretty much everyone does except you. You're the guy that was pushing to remove all the toys off the playfield to "improve" the game, right? This is definitely an opinion in the minority and one I've never seen before or since.

Yes, but LOTR LE doesn't have one iota of gameplay difference from the regular LOTR. Neither does Elvis, Monopoly, or Spider-Man. It's the vast gameplay changes that changed the game.

Ops that aren't interested in pins holding value probably aren't ops any more. The game has changed. And if you look historically at route Sterns and value, until the new wave of different LE models came along, they have been holding their value really well for the most part. The misses with perhaps one exception are the games that ops didn't buy much of to begin with.

I kinda like the WoZ idea (and BSM) . Both editions are full featured but...if you want the 'collector's version' (IE the LE) you get some cool cosmetic changes and a special plaque..mabe a shaker that can be added to the pro... or something.

Of course I fall into the category of the 'scrape every penny together for years to buy a NIB pin'..which I've only done twice...in 1999 and 2007.

The whole LE thing is like the Beany Baby craze years back.

1. Make sure there is a perceived rarity in the market.

2. Make sure you have to order the new Baby sight unseen, because there are not enough to go around.

3. Make sure you have lots of shills talking publicly about how much money they made reselling their Babies.

4. Be surprised when you can't sell your Baby for more that you paid for it.

(I just had this conversation last weekend with a guy that was VERY upset that he could not get anyone to pay more for his Transformers LE than he paid for it.

His wife was even more upset; apparently he told her that they could play the game for a while, then sell it at a handsome profit. She said "With the shipping we paid, it looks like we are going to take a $1100 bath on this investment!!!".

I asked her how many things she have ever bought brand new that latter sold for more than she paid for them. She answered Beany Babies, but then instantly corrected herself that she took them to a shop and they were not worth anything. "The market had really gone down....".)

Yes but WoZ base is a $6500 machine not a $4500 machine. Huge difference. It's like a lesser LE vs a greater LE. This is what was done with acdc premium.

How do you figure? I put LED's, Flipper Fidelity speakers, and possibly a shaker in my AC/DC pro and still would save around $1,500 over buying a premium.

Here lies one of the biggest issues with todays market. Everyone expects to buy a game NIB and sell it for more after they play it because BSM and LOTR LE skyrocketed in price. They were the "exception" and a few years ago you would take a minimum of $300-500 loss on a NIB game, even on titles like SM and LOTR. Now that market is just crazy so you will make money on games like BDK, IM, etc. But a lot of people are newbies and were not in the hobby at those times, so expect to make money on all their purchases. How many other expensive items can you buy that don't lose value? Your car, boat, tv, xbox, playstation, etc. I would be lucky to get $300 for the TV I paid 5K for back in 2001. Did the guy play and enjoy his TF? Does he have cable? I bet he shells out a few thousand bucks a year alone for cable and what does he have to show for that money now? These machines are not free and you have to expect to pay for some of the enjoyment. Pinballs are not investments and you need to know that before purchasing one. If you end up making money on them then great but don't be bitter if you have to take a loss.

If you buy a Pro model there should always be a way to add add ons and make it an LE. Get the extra toys later...add a shaker motor...buy painted legs...

The survey is awkwardly worded...I'm the only one so far to click "Yes even though gameplay is significantly different", but I see others on this thread who would agree.

I'd buy an Avengers Pro at a $2k discount from LE, even if some toys and drop targets are left out. IMHO the LE is for speculators and people who love the theme; the Pro is the game for the rest of us who just enjoy playing. People who buy LE are taking a bigger risk, so there should be some reward besides nice trim and LEDs.

The Pentium/Celeron model does kinda piss me off (disabling a SW feature for the cheaper model), but look at it this way: would you rather see all new games cost $6500+?

Rob, it's worded like a "push poll" - not meant to yield useful data.

+1

Hank, friendly suggestion for your next poll: use the poll question in the subject line. Your subject line is asking a very different question than the poll, and I think that's confusing people (it did me).

That sounds exceedingly high. I can't think of many consumer products with that big of a profit margin. The thing that Stern has going for it is that they can really control their labor. Because of this, the most costly part of any machine - assembly - can be done for the exact number they want. Back in the day, B/W had to go, "Hunh. This machine doesn't seem that great. Let's run 5,000 of them" and hope that they would sell out. Many times, they overbuilt and ended up clearancing stuff off. Stern is far more nimble because of how they set their production line up, and doesn't have that same risk.

I agree, my mind was all over the place on this one.

Nope, This run poves the Pros are still a very viable way to go. I actually prefer the cabinet and most of the game play is there. The added features are not making a huge difference. If I get an Avengers it will be a pro. Not sure at this point with an LE costing so much. If I did it over again I would have just gone Pro straight across and had more games that I felt better about the price on.

How do you know this based on the limited information that we have?

Well the shots all look the same to me, The cabinet pictures are out to see and so is the list of what is in each version.
Clearly enough people thought they saw the same thing based on how many posted a Pro was the way they were going. So I may be premature but I think based on the information so far that the Pro is still a player.
I think in general the point was are Pros being devalued and yet Tron Pro, TF Pro, AC/DC Pro and this Pro (Maybe) will show you can still get a good game at a much better price.

Of course we may get same game video that shows a few tricks and makes this all moot.....